Using an original transmission as is.

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Using an original transmission as is.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 06:31 am:

Fellows,
I recently had to install a set of re-bushed and balanced drums I had put aside for my current project into my 1912 chocolate van, to replace cracked drums.
I had put aside a flywheel with a virgin ring gear for my project. This had come from a 1919 engine which had blanking plates over the starter holes in the hogshead, and presumably this was from a commercial chassis. I tore down the trans and measured it for wear. the results are noteworthy.
Triple gear pins.... .675 - .6745"
Triple gear bushes.....678", giving .003" clearance.
No measureable wear on gear shafts.
Clearance on main shaft... .003"
Clearance on first gear bush... .004"
Clearance on reverse gear bush... .002"

Of interest is a remaining machining marking over half the brake drum surface, indicating little wear on the drums also.

I intend to re-assenble the trans as is, except for some balancing work, and see just how quiet or otherwise an undisturbed original trans is.

One question I have requires your input. The bush in the brake drum has the integral thrust face used in the earlier cars. I thought that went out earlier than 1919. This thrust face is heavily scored. Should I machine this down to the thickness of one of the 3 steel thrust washers and use two steel washers, or should it be machined right off to use 3 steel washers?

It will be used with a KC Warford transmission. Would the original clutch pack be OK with this or should I go with a Jackrabbit clutch?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 06:34 am:

I would use the original clutch for sure. It is in perfect shape after all these years and has not stranded anyone. I like the idea of machining the thrust face for an additional washer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 10:20 am:

You could replace the brake drum with the washer kind and still have a matched set of gears.

I also am an advocate of the stock Ford clutch. When set up properly, they are a joy to drive and bullet-proof to boot.

Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:10 am:

I wouldn't change a thing. I just rebuilt a 1913 transmission that was the same way. Hardly any wear anywhere! I charged the magnets. That is all it needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herman Kohnke on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:27 am:

If you want to use the 3 steel washers, machine the Brass washer off, and take .015 off the under side of 3332, and you will have the same clearance as the later Trannys. Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:41 am:

You have one very nice transmission. One I would love to own. As Royce stated also, I like your idea of machining the face of the flange bushing and adding a spacer washer(s) to make up the difference. In all other respects I would leave it alone. I would take great care to reassemble everyting just the way it came from the car, including orientation of the driving plate to the brake drum, positioning of the triple gears on the respective shafts, etc. I would mark each bolt to reassign it to the same hole it came from. I would be surprised if you had anything but a smooth quiet transmission there. Hard to achieve in todays world.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 07:32 am:

Many thanks fellows.

I had a private message from a gentleman who read my post, offering a new flanged bush for the brake drum, for the cost of the postage. This is indicative of the wonderful spirit in the T fraternity and I am humbled by it. I did decline his generous offer, reasoning that it would be of better use to someone who needed to re-bush the drum to get the correct clearance.

Herman, I read somewhere in all my T stuff about changing thrust washers when updating earlier trans, but was not sure of just what was needed. Thanks for your input.

I asked about the clutch, having in mind that until I needed the starter motor, I would be cranking the car by hand.

Richard, it will all be indexed when assembled to maintain the relative positions to preserve the balance work. I have already mixed up the triple gears, but as the pins are uniform and the bushes likewise, I will balance them and install them as the come.

If I can get my son to help me, I will post photos of the cracked drums from the chocolate van to illustrate why my reserve set was used.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 12:31 pm:

Somewhere on these pages years ago I read that half the discs are curved or bowed slightly, and they get flattened by wear, pressure and maybe overheating over the years.

The article recommended hammering them to get back in shape for better neutral. It didn't work for me, so I went to modren discs.

Maybe somebody has a way you can measure yours.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 06:38 pm:

The steel clutch discs are flat. Anyone who believes they should be curved or bowed is mistaken. If you find them dished get a different set. Don't hammer on them in any case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Chennell on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 10:10 pm:

It's been a while since I've dealt with this, but my rememberance is that the dealers sell a special, thinner thrust washer to use in the early transmissions when you eliminate the flanged bushing. You stack two "standards" and the thin one to get the right clearance. Always worked great for me. Haven't looked at a catalog in a while - and I also have a surface grinder, which made buying different thicknesses sort of irrelevant. Still worth checking out.

Luke Chennell
Wichita, KS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 10:55 pm:

I'm pretty sure the recommendation was from Fahestock or Tinkerin' Tips. It was only half the discs that were bowed; the inners, IIRC.

Looking at edge, vertical:
!
)
!
Well, kinda' like that, only different...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 11:48 pm:

Yes I do recall the suggestion to restore the dish effect by light pounding. I believe it was Tinkerin Tips. Never really thought much of the idea, but it was apparent to me by the wear pattern on the discs that half were dished to begin with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 06:44 am:

Tinkerin Tips was a collection of original topics collected by Ted Aschman. To believe they are all correct or even a good idea is to delude one's self. Ted was a nice old guy who loved to write and entertain. He never claimed that any or all the tinkerin Tips were a good idea either.

In this case it is flat - assed wrong information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 07:29 am:

I would have thought you to be more observant, Royce, especially in your line of work. Just look at the wear pattern on old discs, as described by Richard. I don't believe I have any out of a tranny right now, or I would take pix.

rdr


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration