1916 Ford Coupelet

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: 1916 Ford Coupelet
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 12:19 pm:

I posted some of these pictures over on the mtfc international board. I didn't know there was another until board until searching for some model t info last night. This board seems more active then the other.

Here the pictures of the car, I'm still working on securing a facility to work on it. My garage is rather small to do major work so I'm trying to find a larger facility to do cleaning and such.

Quick history is my grandfather purchased car in 1958 from a dealer in Stuart Nebraska. Car has been in storage since 1968, my mom has it now and is not too interested in it. She and my step dad have other classic cars to maintain.

Enjoy and post comments please.

http://s153.photobucket.com/albums/s203/fbergski/1916%20Ford%20Coupelet/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana USA on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 12:34 pm:

WOW!! What a find. You should seriously consider just cleaning it up and getting it running as is, rather than restoring it. Mike Walker is restoring a 16, he posts on here often. By the way, if you have the hubs for those Pasco wire wheels, the set is worth about five grand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 12:39 pm:

I think the wheels in the one picture are Daytons. IMO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 12:40 pm:

Wow, Really, Wow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Oder on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 01:53 pm:

Wire wheels are more like pin drive Houks - or whoever used the up front hub nut locking ring with squarish holes.

J.O.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Shelton, Tennessee, USA on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 02:25 pm:

Personally I'd want to do a complete restoration, but that is just me. But regardless, there is a wealth of information here that should be captured before anything is touched. Looks like it had some changes as it went through life like the front springs, rear spring hangers, and the power plant, but there are tons of details that would appear to be original and untouched. Very valuable source of information that should be captured. Nice find!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 02:36 pm:

It's possible that the car has been changed over the years. The original engine (at least we think it is) is in a box. On a motor tour the original engine had a problem and my grandfather removed it for repair. The engine you see is from a 23 T from what I've been told.

No plans on restoring the car at this time. If I do acquire the vehicle I plan to thoroughly clean and stabilize it, put the original engine back in.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 03:26 pm:

Phillip & Forum Members
Phillip is indeed fortunate not only to have the car
but this Issue of Hemmings.It is the First issue of Hemmings to have photos!
When we were doing research on the Towncar at Harrah's this issue also had the First Photo Ad and it featured the 1915 Towncar they now have on display at Reno.
Congradulations!!! I never thought I would see the Coupelet again.
-Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB-Toms River N.J. on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 03:30 pm:

So their still out there. Hiding & bideing their time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 03:42 pm:

WOW! Very nice! It would be fantastic cleaned up and stabilized. You would probably have to put a new top on it to drive it more than very little. But preserve the original top for future research and patterns. Good luck.
Drive carefully, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 04:48 pm:

I might be wrong but hasn't the front wish bone and spring perch's been updated to the mid 20's style?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 05:17 pm:

Looks like you got it out of all the debris that was in that garage.
Many people here read both forums. Yes, you will get a lot more feed back on it over here. There might even be somebody here that has some old leather you can fix the top with?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By DAREL J. LEIPOLD on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 05:56 pm:

This T is listed as a 1915 in the 1961 list of AACA Register. The engine number puts it into the 1915 range. It seems to have 1915 features. Is it an early 1916?
1915


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 07:05 pm:

This particular coupelet was discussed at length on the other forum.

The serial number 958,574 noted in the Hemmings article corresponds to November 1915. That makes it the 1916 model year. Also, the portal windows in the top are indicitave of the 1916 model year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB-Toms River N.J. on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 07:21 pm:

Why is it that the older T's seem so heavily modified? It's like they didn't stand up to the roads in those days. Or was it just easier to get newer "improved" front & rear ends, fenders ect.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 07:22 pm:

Looks like this car will be good for my retirement :-) (just kidding). Their seems to be some debate about the year of the car. My uncle sent me a lengthy email in which he states his dad (my grandfather) did much research and came to the conclusion it was a 1915. I haven't seen the title for it or even know if one exists at this point to confirm it's true identity.

Thanks for all the great information by the way, you guys know your T's for sure.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 07:31 pm:

With the help of modern computers and a high resolution photo's my mom took I zoomed in on the registration sitting on the interior floor.

The car is officially registered as a 1915 Ford.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" (Harold) Tucker - Sumter, SC on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 10:34 pm:

Phillip,

As mentioned by several folks before http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/28813.html?1301977719 the car is a very rare model and we all encourage you to find out more about it. As Eric and others pointed out it appears to be an early 1916 model year. That is based on the engine serial number 970,xxx (which is probably also on the title) that is listed on the daily engine logs as being either produced at the Highland Park Plant on Nov 18, 1915 or that number would have been shipped to one of the other branch assembly plants to be stamped onto an engine and transmission assembled at that branch. Either way the engine and therefore the car would have been assembled on or after Nov 18, 1915.

Note, many cars including Model Ts that were sold in Nov or Dec 1915 would have not been titled at all depending on the state it was sold in. Some states were still getting all that squared away -- for example Alabama still didn’t issue titles until the later half of the twentieth century. For those states that did issue titles they could have easily issued the title for 1915 or 1916 depending on how they did it there. (In England folks would actually delay registering a car so they could have it titled the next year as a newer car.) Also, in the USA there were so many Model Ts that were titled using the casting dater rather than the serial number that Ford USA modified the casting date so it was in a round circle and finally stopped putting the casting date on the engine block so the state DMV could not make that mistake any longer. And if the title was lost or never obtained before your Grandfather purchased the car, he would have been the one to determine the title year. And since he had only been into antiques cars for less than two months according to the Jan 10, 1954 news paper article, he easily could have pick 1915 based on his understanding and recommendation from friends at the time.

My Dad purchased our oldest car from a Ford dealer in the 1950s and it was sold to him as a 1906 Ford Model N Runabout. It said that right on the title. But further research clearly indicates it is a 1907 Model S Runabout. When I discussed the car with my Dad I called it a 1906 – because that is what it was for him and it really didn’t matter – we had a lot of fun together working on the car. In the case of your car – if you really want to call it a 1915 I would suggest you use the term Manufactured in Nov or Dec 1915 as that is possible. (Somewhere we have some notes on when Ford USA produced the Centerdoors and Coupelets – but I can’t find it at the moment. From memory – and that is risky with me – the produced some in Nov – Dec 1914 and then skipped a bunch of months as they were not selling very fast and then produced some more starting in the Fall of 1915.) Just like the cars introduced in the Fall of 2011 will be called 2012 models – so the Model Ts sold starting around Aug 1915 would have been referred to as 1916 model year cars. (See: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1916.htm the “Model Year Dates” and yes they are listed as approximate. ) Additionally those Coupelets manufactured back in Nov – Dec 1914 (possibly also Jan 1915?) did not have the small window in the top while the ones manufactured in the Fall of 1915 did have that new feature. You will notice that the 1950 photos of the Coupelet show black rims on the headlamps and sidelamps as well as black tops on the side lamps. It is possible they were painted over earlier – but I believe it is more likely that the black painted steel versions were replaced with the brass versions to make the car look more like a 1915 model year. (ref the same page: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1916.htm for 1916 headlamps: Black steel rims. Side and tail lamps are similar to 1915 but without brass rims.

You have a very rare body style and apparently still fairly original car. Yes, the engine was swapped out (to include the later style hand crank at the front) but there is an excellent chance you still have the original engine. And yes, it has a later style front spring – but the vast majority of the car appears to very correct or period correct. For example – many early owners purchased or had built the accessory wish bone to fit under the factory wishbone to better hold the front axle in place. There are several owners of 1915 and 1916 Coupelets that post on the forum. And I know they will gladly assist you with questions that are unique to that body style.

Again, welcome to fun hobby. Some folks really enjoy the research aspects, others the restoration aspects, others the driving aspects, others entering their cars in car shows, and some just driving them. As you begin your journey you are starting with a very rare body style. Take your time, document what you find, ask questions and have fun.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (not an original body style offered by Ford but one produced by many farmers back in the day by cutting off the back of a touring car.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 10:53 pm:

Congratulations I also have a Coupelet. As mentioned above your fellow Coupelet owners would be very interested in some of the original features of an unrestored car.

My motor no is 956xxx and was sold to me as a 1915. As I understand in some states/provinces the year of the car was listed by the calendar year it was registered.

Current convention would call a Sept to Dec car the next calendar year model.

I really don't car what year we call mine it still like it very much.

Chris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 11:02 am:

Philip -- As the others have said, you have found a very rare and desirable Model T. To find one as complete and correct as that is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. You posted 90 photos on the Potobucket link; I'd suggest that you take about a zillion more before you do any work on the car. Try to capture every tiny detail that you can, because you'll be wanting that information as you get into the car's restoration.

I would restore it if it were mine. The top is too far gone to preserve, and there are some rusted-out places on the fenders, etc. Once you begin fixing those things, you'll probably want to do the rest of it. If you have the original engine, that's fantastic and it will add to the value of your car. Other than the engine, I saw only a couple of non-correct parts on the car, as one would expect on a Model T which was actually driven and used. But it appears that about 99% of the car is correct, which is amazing. Be very careful with that brass trim around the edges of the top; it would be very difficult to reproduce.

Take your time on this project, so you don't do something you'll regret later. Learn all you can about it before you do anything else. If you can come up with a title, see whether the number on it matches the number on the spare ('16) engine. If it does, it will add to the car's authenticity. Make this a long-term project and you'll be glad you did. It's worth it.

I've done a lot of research on these cars since I acquired mine, so if I can be of any help to you, don't hesitate to ask. You can email me from my profile page.

Here are some recent pics of my chassis. Everything on it is correct for a '15 (except for the later spark plugs, which are now the correct smooth-sided ones). :-) The wheels and tires are temporary roll-around ones.

chassis

engine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen-Central Minnesota on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 11:59 am:

Philip,

I recommend that you get in touch with Mark Cameron: http://brassera.com/

Mark is a two-time MTFCI Stynoski Award winner (best restoration of the year). Two of his strongest suits are documentation and preservation. He thoroughly researches and documents all of his projects. The preservation work that he did on a local member's 3,400 original mile '14 Touring was outstanding. The good news for you, is that he was well on his way to building a '15 Coupelet, (which would surely have netted his third Stynoski) when he found an original car like yours. In short, he could be a great resource for you and he has a true passion for the early Coupelets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George A Wood on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 12:30 pm:

I wish that I could have seen this one when I did mine. I scrounged for information four years befor mine was restored and still had to wing it on some details. The picture of the door sill plates and where the tail light mounts may be the only ones in existence. The original color of the headliner is in doubt in the references that I found, etc, etc, etc. GOD SAVE THAT COUPLET, at least in all the detailed pictures you can get. No picture is unimportant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR. on Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 01:47 pm:

George -- The current belief by some of us is that the black Coupelets came with gray headliners, the dark green ones with green headliners, and the Midnight Blue ones with blue headliners. All had black fenders, hood, lamps, etc. Documentation on all of these details is very difficult to find, since the bodies were supplied to Ford finished, painted, and upholstered by the Fisher Body Co. The Ford parts (chassis, including fenders, hood, etc.) and the lamps were black.

I am researching when the porthole window appeared. Some think it was with the '16 model year cars, but some others think it was earlier than that. Again, the documentation one way or the other hasn't yet been discovered.

By the way, Coupelets made in the 1915 model year were made in December '14, January '15, and February '15 only. Then Coupelet and Sedan production ceased until the fall of '15. That was in the '16 model year. One Coupelet was built in October of '15, then production continued in November and afterward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana USA on Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 10:29 am:

Here is a picture from an original Canadian sales brochure for 1916.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 11:06 pm:

Thanks for all the great information and support. My uncle said that after grandpa got the car he had to remove paint from the brass radiator and the top already had some patches on it. But I guess by 1958 the car was already forty two years old you'd expect some work to be done to it.

I'll ask my mom about the front suspension. In one of the pictures their is some parts laying next to the car I wonder if the original front suspension is laying their.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen-Central Minnesota on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 11:56 pm:

Philip, Just a word of advice for a new guy. Some of the spare parts in your photos are rare and valuable; don't let anybody try to scam you out of them.


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