Hello All,

I’m trying to keep a positive attitude here. I had noticed a clanging noise the last two or three times I had driven the 24' Touring. It sounded like it was coming from the front end. I carefully inspected it , jacked it up and checked spindles, bearings, balls and sockets, fan, etc. I even shook the car up and down and couldn’t get it to make a noise. Everything felt tight.

I thought I’d take it out for a drive to see if it would make the noise again. Well, about the first mile out I heard something hit the pavement. I slowed down and came to a stop. I looked back to see that the passenger head light rim and lens had fallen off. I quickly jumped out to retrieve the lens rim and of course the lens itself was broken into a hundred pieces.

No problem, I kept positive. I took off again and drove six or seven miles and circled back towards home. After coming to a stop at an intersection, I built speed on low gear, let up on the throttle and slowly released the pedal to high, Pow!, Clang, and no low or high! I rolled to a stop and could hear a not so very nice sound coming from the rear axle area. I jumped out and the first thing I see are the driver side rear wheel bolts off with only two left hanging out.

Friends, I believe I just lost my rear axle.

I walked home and hooked on to the trailer and with my neighbor’s help, we rolled the car up in the trailer and I brought her home.

I have her in the garage safe and sound. I’m not upset or discouraged. I want to fix it! And I believe I want to repair it myself. I want to learn how to do this! I bet I can, of course with your help.

Where to start?

Orlando

Orlando -- Start by ordering or borrowing a copy of the MTFCA booklet on rebuilding rear ends. You'll be glad you did.

That sounds all too familiar to me as it will to others. I suspect your babbitt thrust washers that keep the ring engaged on the pinion have disintegrated allowing the ring to disengage from the pinion gear and in the process of doing so, have broken off some teeth on the ring gear. This is what happened to me last year and I took the rear end out, took it apart and found one partial thrust washer and many pieces of babbitt from that one and the other that had completely disintegrated. Luckily I have a friend who had a ring gear for my pinion which was OK. I bought the MTFCA book on front & rear ends and with a ton of help from here and lots of parts from Lang's, rebuilt the rear end successfully. As I've said in a few posts, if you don't know the rear end has been rebuilt on your car with thespecifics known, then you need to get yours apart to check it, if for safety reasons alone.

Orlando, start with seeing what you have. Take out the oil plug, stick in a finger, and see if the rear end oil is clear and clean, or like this.



From your description of the symptoms, I'm guessing the latter. If so, it means your thrust washers are like this.



That means it's time to get the MTFCA axle book by Glen Chaffin. You'll spend a few hundred on parts, but it ain't brain surgery. I expect you can do a rear engine rebuild using the book, getting pointers here, and talking to Glen or Dave who know this stuff inside out.

I guess it's good to get this out of the way while the car is still new, so you don't have to worry about when it's going to happen.

From your description, it reads to me like the rear wheel collapsed. That the spokes have broken, or that the bolts have sheared off. The trouble might not be internal inside the axle, but with your wood spoke wheel.
Norm

Norman and All,

The bolts have sheared off. The car would not engage in low or high gear. The wheel was just barely holding on with only two loose bolts left. None of the spokes look damaged or broken, but really haven't given them a close look.

Just to add, The previous owner said that the thrust washers had been upgraded to bronze washers.

My plans are to get the book out and read, but first had to take a little rest.

I appreciate everyone's responses, advice, and support. I know I can get this repaired and even in better condition with all of your help.

Orlando

40 years ago, it was highly recommended to replace the Babbitt washers. With temperature changes, both mechanical and ambient, air expands and contracts. As it does so, it sucks air in and blows air out. With the air comes humidity. I learned a long time ago at work, the water goes in much more than it goes out. There are complicated reasons for it, but suffice to say, the water builds up in the grease and forms a mild acid. Even with recent grease changes, the damage was done. Babbitt is a wonderful sacrificial material. The mild acid just eats it up.
Basically, with every ten years (not an exact time-line, there are many variables), the likelihood of the Babbitt washers simply crumbling roughly doubles. By now, they really shouldn't be run at all.
I like to tell about when I was working on my first T speedster about forty years ago. On good advice, I bought new brass thrust washers. When I went to change them, I discovered one of my originals was bright and shiny and looked perfect. I decided to go ahead and use both new ones, but put the nice one on the wall for future use. I soon learned better. As I was walking to the garage to hang up the nice old one, I stumbled just a bit on a small rock. I had my fingers through the center of a couple of washers and squeezed a little bit as I stumbled. That nice, perfect looking, original washer broke into three pieces. Just the grip of my fingers. Went well to prove to me that Babbitt washers should NEVER be put back in. And I never have put them back in.
They are nearly twenty times more likely fail now, with age. If you do not know what thrust washers are in your T, you should take a day and check them. If you drive your T much at all, it is no longer if they break apart, but when.
So have at it! A model T rear end is not a big deal to rebuild. You can do it.
Drive safe (you did!), have fun and enjoy the feeling of accomplishment.
W2

Wayne,

Thanks for your post. As I mentioned, the fellow who I purchased from said they had been replaced. I hope he knew what he was talking about.

I've taken the wheel off. Everything looks clean. All of the nuts were down at the bottom of the E-brake drum.

With it being secured with jacks, jack stands and chocks, I started it and engaged it into low gear and then high. It all seems to be working correctly.

Norm,

You may be right in that the wheel bolts have worked loose and sheered off. I've grabbed onto the rear passenger side wheel and it feels loose.

I'll continue to investigate. I will keep you posted.


Thanks All,

Orlando

Once your wheel nuts fell off and the bolts worked their way out of the hub, the axle shaft and hub probably spun while the wheel remained stationary. The differential sent power to the axle shaft with least resistance - that is probably why the car appeared to not go into gear.

If the nuts fell off on their own, they were not properly tightened and the hub bolts were not peened. If the bolts actually sheared, it may have been caused by the nuts getting hung up on the perch nut on the axle housing backing plate.

I believe similar incidents have been discussed on the Forum in the past.

Orlando,

What you found is good news. You just need to reinstall the nuts and then peen the bolts so it won't happen again. Of course do both sides!

Orlando, yank on that wheel after you get it lined up and before you tighten down the bolts. If the previous owner replaced the bolts he may have bought some of the inferior reproduction bolts I have heard about. They may be the problem so be sure you have strong, good quality bolts.

That wheel should be tight before the bolts go in. The bolts keep the hub from spinning, they shouldn't be the main structural element in making a good stiff wheel. If it is floppy you best consider new wood. If it isn't toast you might be able to shim the spokes. (Shim goes onto the tenon between the spokes' shoulder and the felloe.)

When my wheel on my 1913 let loose the same way I ended up grafting in the wood from a 1909 Hupmobile wheel (including wooden felloe). Replacement bolts were needed for that... don't even think about using carriage bolts.

If you do it right you will only have to do it once!

IMHO, TH

Orlando,

It sounds like some one in the past had changed the brake drum or had some reason to remove the nuts from the hub bolts and did not peen them when they were replaced.

If that is all the damage is limited to new bolts, nuts and peening them will fix it.

Check the other rear wheel and let us know what you find with that one also.

Good Luck,
Larry

I appreciate everyone's input.

I'm about to take the passenger rear wheel off and check it out.

I've looked at a vendor many of us use and have found wheel bolts that are supposed to be exact copy of the original.

Is this what I need along with the companion hub bolt nuts?

No one's mentioned lock washers, no lock washers?

I will definetely peen them.

Thank you,

Orlando

I am glad to hear that you are not facing a major tear-down. (I was typing when you posted your update.) I just now checked back.
As to putting new bolts in the wheel. No lock-washers under the nuts. There is no room if you have brake shoes in there. If you do not have shoes in there (as in you have outside brakes only) you could possibly use thicker nuts and lock-washers. I like two independent braking systems. So I always have brake shoes inside. If you do have brake shoes in there, you will also have to carefully check the clearance as the new nuts sometimes hit the shoes and cause other new (but minor to fix) problems. Peen the bolts so they don't work loose. And you may have to cut the bolts shorter first. But not too much.
I usually only peen one side. That way I could, in the future, grind the peen off to take the nut off and re-use the nuts and the bolts. But I am curious to know what others think about this. I know some people believe in all new bolts all the time. I usually carefully inspect used bolts and judge them for the current use. But I do use them. Wheel bolts I am extra picky with. But I have had more trouble with new ones than old ones.
Again, drive safe, and enjoy, W2

Orlando,
I don't know which bolts/nuts you are looking at, but last year when I rebuilt my spokes/felloes, I ordered all new hub bolts/nuts ("exact copy"). It seemed liked more than a few of the new nuts stripped (not the bolts, but the nuts) as I tightened them, and I went back to using the old nuts with the new bolts with no further problems.
IMHO, be careful if you order new nuts. Someone here can tell you which ones are good and which ones to stay away from. And peen afterwards!

Orlando, also, after you replace the bolts and pein them, be sure to retighten them a few times after running them for awhile. They may need to be snugged up a bit and peined again. Dave

Check the rear wheel hub very carefully. I have seen some that would crack and cause what you have talked about. They crack around the flange area. Dan

Good point Dan,

We had a club memeber who suffered that very problem and was lucky he didn't just start a downhill descent.

The car appeared perfect, but wouldn't drive because the hub was spinning inside the wheel assy.

cheers

AB