I went up to Michigan today to meet a stranger who had bought his first Model T but could not get it to start. He was assured by the Son of the seller that Dad drove it all the time" I figured some new plugs, coils and a rebuilt carb and away he goes. You already know the punch line. I installed all new carb, coils, plugs, no start, just a flame out the carb - no good. Checked the compression ZERO NADA NOTHING on all 4. Pulled the head, gasket looked OK, no holes in pistons, cylinder walls look good, 2 valves bent 5 degrees off flat no obviously burned valves

I figure do a valve job, new springs, valves, hardware I should be in good shape. No blown head gasket. Any other ideas to keep this new Model T'er in the hobby?

Yes, Let the new owner help you as much as you can, even if he knows very little about it, showing and telling him what, how and why you are doing, being first hands on I think is also a very good part of the hobby, have fun.

I'm curious, 2 bent valves = 4 cylinders with no compression. I'd check valve timing while you have it apart? Just becuase it is easy to do with the head pulled.

Yup he had a good time doing most of the work I am mailing him the ford maintenance manual and tools (valve grinder, spring compressor, grinding compound. Ordered him all the parts he needs and told him to give it a try, I am here if he needs help. Love seeing another person see how easy it is to work on these wonderful cars

Dave,
Were you able to get any compression at all after a few squirts of oil into the cylinders?
Floyd

no when engine turned over with starter and all plugs removed, good air pressure flowing out spark plug holes felt ---- but absolute zero on compression gauge tried the oil trick no better I am hoping it is just the valves

Zero on all 4 fails the smell test. If there's good air flowing out of the spark plug holes, I'd check the gauge your using!

Henry, we used two different gauges and I went home checked gauge on a good engine My theory is the air leaks past the valves too quickly on the compression stroke of the piston to register any pressure on the gauge. I believe you need 5 PSI to budge off zero on the gauge

Do De cam lift the valves up n down? Just a thought.

Same thought John, maybe stripped fibre cam gear?

Make sure that the valves are closing all the way. If it was run on old varnished gas, the resulting sticky goop will coat and harden on the valve stems when the engine cools down. The next time it is started the cam will push the valves open but the springs on a T are too weak to close them. I see this a lot on small engines like lawnmowers that haven't been used for a long time and then are started and run on the bad gas that is still in the tank.

Thanks Jeff hopefully that is all it is Figure adding all new springs and valves should do the trick ANY great ideas on how to clean out the valve guides (steam?)

I would squirt some Marvel Mystery Oil on top of the pistons when you have the head off to do a valve job. It will work its way down through the rings and help free them up (if they are stuck, which they might be if the engine has set for a while). The car will smoke a little right after you start it up but it will soon get over that.

David, Was that car in the Kazoo area? The one that only needed a new carb? I had contacted the seller and said I would be interested if I could hear it run. No reply. I see it's off Craigslist now.
Gary

Carb cleaner squirted around the valves, through the spark plug holes, will loosen the deposits on the valve stems. Turn the crank over by hand a few revolutions. Let it sit a few minutes. Do this before application of the MMO.

Check to see if there are rings on the pistons.
Dad bought a 1939 Buick straight Eight from the factory, it started to run bad, he pulled the head and the rings were not on the pistons.
Probably a Monday or a Friday car.
you might have to pull the pistons and rering them and it wouldn't hurt to hone the cylinder walls.
Hope this helps.

Joe R.

Joe, my late friend's dad bought a new '54 Ford 3/4 ton pickup with a Yblock V8. He drove it for years and it started burning oil so he decided to overhaul it. He tore it down and it had three diierent style pistons in it. Dave

Here is a question, I am assuming no compression due to bad valves BUT how could all the valves go bad if the engine was not running on zero compression? SOUNDS like what came first the chicken or the egg

David, as John suggested, are the valves moving as they should? Sounds to me as is the pistons are moving up and down, thus blowing air out, but the valves not letting air in with the plugs in. Look at the timing gear through oil cap and make sure it's turning. Also look at the valves in # 4 to see that they are moving, thus the cam in not broke. The bent valves may be the result of someone trying un stick them with a punch and hammer some time in the past.

It seems strange the the valves are going up and down yet there is no compression on any cylinder. Sounds like the valves may be open on the compression stroke which would indicate a timing problem rather than a compression problem as Kerry from Australia mentioned above, or the car has been garaged because the timing was off due to amateur mechanic work? and the timing marks are not aligned?

Check the intake, carb for a dirt dabber nest. Just too be sure. Dan

Thank you Bob Shirley, John Doolittle and Dan Hatch for good advice That is how I learn soo much from this forum

Were your head bolts on tight? I had a similar problem and after a lot of trial and error I found that my head was loose. Re-torquing to specs fixed the problem.

I once installed a rebuilt long block in a model A. We couldn't get it to start, even towed it around the block and just sputtered. Finally pulled the plugs, rotated it around to where the timing pin dropped in, and noticed we were NOT at TDC on number one. Pulled the timing cover, and yeppers, the gears were not in time! The rebuilder couldn't figure out how that happened. After fixing that it started right up! It does happen!
Then there was the time we were preparing a restored chassis (another A)and the pan plug was dripping. Hmm couldn't take it out, the threaded bung just spun in the pan. Dropped the pan, popped the oil tray out and found grease and sand in the bottom! The rest of the engine was fine, but someone did not clean the pan before putting it on. Brazed the bung after we cleaned out the pan and that car is still running (this was over 10 years ago.).
Strange things do happen to our cars over the years!
T'
David D.

Dave, There has been a great deal of discussion here with very little information about the subject engine. With the head off do the valves open and close? Without seeing the engine I would see two possible problems 1. the cam gear is bad or 2. when the cam rotated, the valves lifted and stuck in the open position because of tight valve guides. You mentioned two bent valves... that is not a normal scenario in a flat head engine, unless someone dropped the head on an open valve. The best way to check for stuck valves is to see if you can twist one of the open valves with your fingers. If not run some good penetrating oil down the stem and see if it loosens up.

I would like to thank all of you with special thanks to David Kriegel who came to Mich. from Indiana to share his knowledge of Model T's with me. I am a new owner of a 25 T and I ended up with a problem I knew nothing about, but thanks to all of you my fix seems much easier now. I have parts on order and a manual now and will keep you informed on my progress. Thank you all. Bob

Love us or hate us, welcome to the Forum Bob. Can you share with us what you think the problem is?

Regards,
Garnet

And, perhaps, a photo of your Flivver.

P.S. Welcome Bob. Remember, we were all new to this once.

Bob,

Greetings from a former '25 Coupe owner. My first piece of advice: If your wife ever suggests you sell your car so you can get one with four seats; inform her your second T will have four seats and that you're keeping this one too.

Were you informed about the Kalamazoo swap meet yet? I'm guessing you'll be a regular there.

I just posted a pic of my coupe, a year from now it will be beautiful, actually its beautiful now. Can't wait till it runs. After removing the head with David I gotta believe that new valves will let it pur again, new carb, coils rebuilt, and afew other things before its over. Don't care what it takes its going to run again. I will be a regular at the swap meet now in Kazoo, perhaps we'll meet. Thanks again, its really nice to have someone to talk to about this car.

First time file size was to big.

A simple compression test to eliminate the possibility of a bad gauge or two is to put a cork in the hole for each spark plug and turn the engine over about four times. A good engine will blow the corks clear to the ceiling and perhaps with enough force to break a florescent tube there. A recently rebuilt engine had enough cork force to make a black and blue mark on my hand that was over a one at a time cork test. That bruise saved a ceiling light. This is also called a poor man's compression test.

Then too, if a modern 0 to 300 psi compression gauge is used for this test and the cylinder walls are very dry from a long rest, the compression could be as low as 20 to 25 psi and not show on the gauge at all.

I do not have much I can suggest for a solution. I would pull the head, and valves and guides clean and inspect them. Just note were each on goes. Then I would pour some ATF (automatic transmission fluid) down along the cylinder walls. ATF is high in detergents and will loosen up old oil and varnish. ATF is very thin and can creep into the small nooks and crannies. Personally I do not like MMO, I just have not found it to work as good as ATF.

I don't know whether you have covered this or not. Is your intake and exhaust system completely open? Sometimes little critters make nests there and block the flow of air. The throttle and choke should be completely open while you test the compression. In fact before taking everything apart, you could remove the manifolds and then take the test without any restriction on the intake and exhaust.

I think all other causes of loss of compression have been covered.
Norm

OK, you should always trouble shoot a problem moving through your list first starting with simplest to the most complex checks. I would first put #1 piston at TDC and see if either #1 or or #4 have both their valves closed. That will determine if the timing is OK or the problem exist in that area. From there you can move to the second easiest check. Which might be valve clearances and so on. Hip shots can be quick fixes if you hit the right problem based on their highest frequency of occurrence or the more likely, as like the guy that removes the carb for a fuel starvation problem only to find out later he was just out of gas. Bob

Been reading and re-reading this post and can't reconsile 2 bent valves killing compression in 4 cylinders so (hopefuly, since he's doing the valves anyway) that will be his problem. Not seating or not closing, whatever. Since the head is off do check valve timing and make sure the intake & exhaust systems are clear. Not sure how common bent valves are. Especially 2. Which are they & in what clys?