Disgusting noise from the low gear - a tale of horror

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Disgusting noise from the low gear - a tale of horror
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 12:46 pm:

As I indicated in another thread, that I realy didn't want to steal, I had a horror experience on my vacation on the remote island of Bornholm in the Baltic sea.
(If you do not know where it is :-) http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Bornholm,+Danmark&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=39.592876,93.076172&z=11 )
I was approaching a road fork at the outskirts of a city (Svanneke). The road there have an upward slope and the traffic ahead of me forced me to gear down - not violently, but I shut off the throttle in high and at an apropriate time applied low to brake further and be ready to drive upwards in low.
After a few seconds (no bangs as I recall it) in low, the normal cut gear wheel noise raise to an awfull noise - varying in pitch and volume. Not good.
At this point I was as far as possible on that island from the house we had rented for the week and I managed to get up to the fork and drive to the right going across the island directly back to the house. Right after the turn I could get it in hight, where no noise was present and everything souned and worked normally. Later at the end of the week I managed to get it down to the ferry and from the arrival habour in Køge it was transported on a autotransporter to my home.

Today I finally had the mental surplus to examine it further. I have not pulled the engine do to some logistic issues in my workshop I need to solve in order to make room for the engine. I have just removed the inspection cover and the brake and reverse pedal so I get the best access to examine the drums and the gears.
My first theory was that it was one of the three gears that where loose. I know that when I rebuilded the gear I may not have done the pins right. A quick check did not show any problems with the gears. No rocking back and forth.
Next theory was eventually that the web in the reverse drum may have broke. At the waiting lot at the ferry I tried the reverse, which I have had some problems with for long, and now there where NO reaction at all when I applied the reverse. My problem was, that the engine was loaded/braked when applying the reverse and almost no reverse momentum. Often the engine stalled and the car did not move. Now the engine where unaffected and absolutely no movement of the car.
OK - today I removed the pedals and the bands so I could inspect the drums. Here is how it looked - can you see something missing:

It's a 26-27 engine and gear, so first there is the wide brake drum - a small spacing, then the reverse drum and then... oups - ever seen a model T gear with just 2 wide drums? :-)
This is how it should have looked:

The awful noise is the two drums grinding against each other as the space between reverse and low is gone. Now trying if the reverse drum was loose (i.e. the web broken) but it's not. The reverse and low drums are both loose on the rest of the gearbox - as if the bushing of the lowgear was gone. However - no "gold dust" all around or in the oilscreen.
Feel free to guess until I get cleaned up in the workshop, pulled the engine and taken the gearbox apart.
Luckily I have another gear on the shelf as you see on my picture above :-)
(Pictures taken with my mobile)

Stay tuned......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 01:15 pm:

I can't see how that could have happened. The steel flange of the gear sleeve sets the distance between the drums and that is very unlikely to wear down to the point where the low and reverse drums touch. Of course someone could have machined the rivet ledge down where the reverse drum sits farther back but that is unlikely. I'd be interested to know what you discover once you tear into it.
BTW, when you have everything apart, check to see if there is clearance between the back side of the driven gear and and teeth on the low speed drum before you separate the drums. The book says to set at .006" but I give it about .010" because the spacing around the driven gear varies and you don't want grinding.
Let me (us) know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez on Saturday, July 30, 2011 - 11:52 pm:

Michael, Sorry to hear about your transmission problem. From what I can tell from your posts you are a good mechanic and should have your "T" back on the road in no time! Let us know what we can do to help!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis, In. on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 06:13 am:

Michael, are you sure the noise you heard wasn't coming from the rear axle? I've never seen 2 trans drums that close to each other, but I don't think they would make the noise your descibing either. Jack up your rear axle and see how much in and out play you have on each side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 10:49 am:

Kenny, the rearend was overhauled some years ago when the thrust washers disappeared and are replaced with bronze thrust washers. I've tried loosing the thrust washers. :-)
Besides - the sound was only in low. In high it drives like a dream. And the reverse was not working.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 11:56 am:

I think your Reverse drum webs broke, and or the rivets come loose, and let the drum part move backward, until the brake drum stopped it. The reverse drum gear center is turning off, and on independently from the out side rim, or band surface. Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis, In. on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 11:58 am:

Michael, I reread the post and understand. Have you tried to move the reverse drum forward by pushing or prying with a screw driver? I'm wondering if the reverse drum webs are broken. Half of the reverse drums that I inspect are cracked in the web area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 03:03 pm:

Hi Kenny - yes - that was the first I tried, but it could be because the web and the drum have moved so that it can't move sideways.
My plan is to borrow a crane of a friend and pull the engine next weekend. Then I'll take it all apart and of course report here.
Hopefully we all can learn something.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Sunday, July 31, 2011 - 04:25 pm:

I'll bet Herm is right. It will be interesting to see what it really is. I am sorry you're having to go through this, though.


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