This all started from the US Forum when a chap in Canada posted a photo of his original 1912 radiator re the thread on when did “Made in Canada” ever appeared on the front plate of a brass radiator. The Schneider’s have owned their car #116187 for 50 odd years or so. Mark’s father passed away and left the unrestored car to him, which is fantastic to see it stay in the family. His specific question was there any Canadian Fords in Australia with this uneven windscreen with the short windscreen supports. He knows of 3 others; one in France, another in Kiwiland and his car in Canada.

The usual 1912 windscreen has equal halves and the windscreen supports mount down at the radiator. The Schneider car clearly shows a windscreen with a longer bottom section and supports mounted to the top of the doors pillars similar to the 1913’s. My first thought was that it is probably a 1913 windscreen in a 1912 car and even drafted a response asking him to check a 1913 windscreen to see if it was the same. Then something was ticking in the back of my mind...

I have an original photo of an early stepped body 1912 (one piece firewall) with a sloped back windscreen. For donkeys years I have put this to one side and thought that it is a 1913 windscreen in a 1912 car and that the South Australian state Ford distributors Duncan & Fraser had weaved their magic somehow. I simply had no explanation and left it in the too hard basket. The photo taken at Old Noarlunga south of Adelaide is dated 1913 when the beam for the bridge was made by Fulton’s at Kilkenny and transported down there by wagon. I have attached 2 photos of this car. I think you will agree the windscreen seems very similar and lines up with the Schneider car from Canada. Plus I have another photo of a 1912 from the State Library of South Australia 1912 PRG280/1/17/707with the same type of unusual windscreen.


We have another surviving early 1912 here owned by Ross Hill. Those in our local Ford ‘T’ movement that have been around since Skippy was a joey in the pouch will testify to the originality of this car. Ross bought the car during the war from the original owner and drove it under age with Barry Winter to school and has had the car ever since, amongst other nice toys such as a 1909 IHC Buggy, a 1907 2 cylinder Buick etc . It was found in a shed in Norwood owned by a barber complete, but had to be semi-dismantled to get it out past a Pullman blocking the driveway. Ross does not rally the car and I believe that it has barely turned a wheel in 30 years or so. Photos are extremely rare and I only have a poor one taken in 1956 or so. I personally have never seen this car in my life; a sad state of affairs for such an original local adelaide car. Ross’s 1912 is an early 1912 with the external door handles, but more importantly it has the uneven half windscreen with the short supports. The “incorrect” windscreen has been a topic of discussion for longer than I care to remember. Ross always stated it was there on the car when he got it.

Question.
It seems to be in very small numbers, early 1912 and on Canadian Fords only. I have checked my 1913 Canadian parts List and it is not listed. Does anybody know anything or has anybody seen this type of uneven brass windscreen with the short supports before?

Here is the photo from the State Library of South Australia PRG280/1/17/707 mentioned above...Dave C.

Got my interest here, Dave. Thought that was the way '13's were done at windshield support. Let me know what you find out, and I'll be following this tread.

Having front door support panels makes the later windscreen struts possible, huh?

I believe the uneven panels were found on all years. Here's a 1909 in Wendling, Oregon, thanks to Dan Treace.

Looks like someone replaced the original windscreen with one that you have now. People did all sorts of things, no need to know why. The windscreen is simply an old repair or upgrade depending on your opinion of what category it falls under.

The whacky extra headlight added in above the radiator is another example that shows these cars were often modified the day the car left the dealer.

We too had uneven windscreen halves on the ealrier cars. Our standard 1912 windscreen seems to be the Rands with even windscreen halves, same as in my 1911.

Some more great stuff coming out of the woodwork...

The car on the right is C323 and the photo was taken when the car was new for a family wedding around Bathurst, New South Wales. Look at the other cars and the windscreens on at least 2 other cars, both look like 1912's. No matter now unlikely, it seems more than a co-incidence to me "explained" as a dealer change out. In this case we 2 different states (New South Wales & South Australia) and 2 entirely different state distributors involved with about 1,000 miles between them.

This is why I love Canadian 'T's, "same same" as US but different! Dave C.

Those with slanted lower half would need a different top, no?

BTW, that's a Mezger Automatic on the 1909 roadster.

rdr

Hi David,
When you mention the "Schneider" car in Canada are you referring to Porky Schneider in Kitchener/Waterloo Ontario?
-Don

Gents,

Attached are two period photos with a similar windshield to the one on our car.
Don, Yes this is Porky's car.He was may father. We're is the midst of restoring it now.

Like Royce said, it is possible that this style was added after it left the Walkerville factory for reasons unknown (collision repair, farmers fix-it etc.) What we do know is that this style does turn up on Canadian and Australian cars. Olivier Chabannes car also has one. The Aussie cars seem to have the support rods mounted on the outside of the body. Our rods are mounted in the middle of the fore-door panel. The Aussie cars also have the bottom half sloped, similar to the 13/14 style. These photos show a vertical style windshield.





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Hi Mark, thanks for chiming in. I too am looking forward to see where this thread may lead. Hopefully all of our Canadian export friends out there are now looking through their collection of early photos looking for this unusual windscreen...Dave C.

The car stuck in the mud has the proper unequal pane windshield typical of the late 1912 slab sided body style. Here's another picture of the same car:





The car shown with the two kids and the dog appears to be an English 1912. I don't know if the windshield is correct or not.

Note that the car in the mud should have windshield support tubes that connect to the front of the car. I bet they modernized the windshield attachment to match the "improved" 1913 style.

Photo from "The Mail" Adelaide, 22nd March 1913, Page 4.



Original can be found here-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/58509997

Dane,

That advertisement shows a 1913 Ford torpedo runabout. The slanted windscreen was introduced in the 1913 model year.

Here's a better picture of a 1913 torpedo runabout:

David - here is a 1912 in Waitati roughly halfway between Karitane & Dunedin. I think you may be onto something. Sorry photo is cropped (Cannot seem to get the whole photo saved right) but shows the main points.

Alex your picture shows (tired and worn, many years old) a modified 1912 with the windshield support rods turned around backward, cut off and attached to the body. Makes it look a sorta like a "new" 1913 model. Probably pretty common back in the day, it was far sturdier than the original setup.

What is the difference between a 1913 T runabout and a 1913 T torpedo runabout ??
David.

A torpedo roadster goes faster...heh, heh

Bugga !!............(aussie for darn )

Well Royce, no mater how much you discredit the Canadian built cars with their body stiles and they are real and they where made for a world market that did not want full conformity, they came in those bodies and in colours unlike what you are tiring to tell us that did not exist. History is in those early photos and they are different and they will not just disappear to suit your limited view.. David C, have you got that photo of the 1912 that crashed in Victoria in the early teens so Royce can see the body from a better angle... Ray Green

What is really interesting here is the original colours on the 1912's. Mark Schneider confirms that the 1912 'T's in Canada are indeed dark blue or "midnight" blue. Here in Adelaide we have Alan McKeoughs late 1911, Ross Hills, Arthur Mullins & Greg Mahons 1912's that are all green. And before the US 'experts' even start to comment (a) the green is original on all of these cars, & (b) green cannot be a faded blue.

Question - did Canada have 2 colours then? One for the home market and another for RHD export? It would certainly make assembly easier on the line for which configeration to assemble if it was colour coded...Dave C.

Here is a chance for the Victorian historians to show their heads, who can find and up load the photos of the 1911 and 1912 Melbourne motor show with the Ford cars all fitted with Livingston Radiators and tourer body with the four doors, the photo exist and some members jumped up and said they would collect the history of Ford in Australia so did you find this photo... Ray Green

Hello Dave and Everyone,
Not being one who likes confrontation I have stood back and watched this Thread develop. For what it is worth here is my contribution. It may create a little more controversy. I hope not. Having been involved in the Hobby for 46 years, my observations are that Ford Canada and Ford England did things differently to the U.S." Home Plants". If anyone has the fabulous book " The English Model T Ford " it is full of pictures and documentation of variations on the the Model T's produced in England. I know that Ford Canada implemented some changes to their cars that the U.S. adopted some time later as well. To quote a few examples: The One Man Top, and the Slant Windscreen, 30x3 1/2 Tyres , Drivers side door. I don't see why there would not have been variations. Our Aussie cars are absolutely loaded with them. I hope I am not in breach of any copyright here , but for research purposes I show a couple of period pictures borrowed from " The English Model T ". I give full credit to the Authors of this book. It is an outstanding piece of research, and it is a credit to them. Best regards, John

Ray,

I think "discredit" is not what my comments represent. I am simply pointing out the fact that what your pictures show is not a factory configuration for US made or Canadian made Model T's. Your original picture in the first thread shows a beat up car with the wrong windshield.

I am not insulting it or you, just stating facts.

We were not discussing British made cars nor are they relevant (in my opinion) to the cars pictured.

Royce, You really only see what is in the US books and what happens on the other side of the world would never be seen then or as it today as US news services only show things where the US has some interest and the rest of the world is not there and I speak from experience having lived in Gilroy and Santa Rosa. Car 3 and 5 in my photo are real with that sloping windscreen as my family are in the first car and the wedding took place in the end of 1913 or the start of 1914 as it was registered in January 1914 so they are not "beat up old cars with the wrong windscreen". If you check car 2 and 4 you can see that they have the same body but another windscreen support so there was no set standard and do you think that there could have been two assemble ares in Canada. What listings do you have as my car was made in Canada but the build plate lists Ford Ontario (the town that is) and not Walkerville as all the others have, would you say that some one fitted that plate years later just to upset the Historians 80 years later, If you are stating facts then up load a sale booklet showing the Canadian export cars for 1911 and 12 (not domestic market) that you must have to back up your abundant knowledge about our cars and your claim that every one is been changed years later. My family changed cars about every three years as I have the photo of the new ford in 1916 and when we cleared the shed out we ended up with a Holsman Motor buggy, my 1913 T, the remains of a later model, a 1920 Chev, a 1923 Hupmobile and for get the rest. Your comment is always telling the writers that they are wrong and you are right, I bet as a kid if you could not have your way you would take your ball and glove and went home. Like all model T history there is always another car that is not fully recorded and when it turns up it must be wrong even if owned from new. I will agree with you that we are not talking about cars made in or for and sold in England as they are another story which is different to what was sold here in Australia.
... Ray

Here is a photo that backs up your case Royce as this crash happened in Victoria in 1912 or 13 from what I remember from my records and I had to dig through a lot of files to find it. Even up to a few years ago some cars made by Ford where different between states and New South Wales could have different models to Victoria and again South Australia and with multi dealerships/ importers. By the sales books it is a new 1912 As per Bruce's sales catalogs. In some ways you are so far from the mark but you are closer to the truth than you realise but stop and think what you have seen and read and compare with the history book... Ray

Thank you to everybody that has contributed and to all of those private emails. Although we haven't got to the bottom of the original topic of this thread, based on original surviving 1912 cars we have now uncovered further Canadian anomolies from the US.

These are:
1. From at least 1910 onwards it appears that the body mouldings were painted black, similar to a 1909. (We will not mention the split front seat cushion just yet). This 2-tone painting practice obviously ceased with the introduction of smooth sided body of 1912.

2. From late 1911 (at least November) surviving LHD Canadian 1912's are blue like their US counterparts. 5 original survivung RHD cars in Australia are all green. It looks like Canada had different coloured bodies depending on which configeration was being assembled.

3. This ceased with the introduction of the 1913 style body with 4 doors released late in the year, all supplied by a single manufacturer and thefore the body colour became common on both configerations.

I love Canadian 'T's...Dave C.