There Is Always Something New, Just Pay Attention

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: There Is Always Something New, Just Pay Attention
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper . . Keene, NH on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:51 am:

You never know what you might stumble across.

Today I was starting to transform what had been a frame from a saw rig into an engine test stand. This would involve removing old rotted wooden supports, cleaning and scraping the frame, some new wood and four casters. There were a pair of hood shelves ('23- '25 style) still on the frame. They are a bit dented, but solid and could be used.
They came off with out struggle and as I set them aside one of the front wooden support blocks caught my eye. I picked it up and found myself turning it over and over in my hand as if it were a jewel. The block had the correct holes in it, but is assembled of two tapered pieces of wood dovetailed together! I have never seen such a thing. I had to share this discovery as I was sure that two or three of you might have passing interest.

This is the one piece support block as we all have seen.



And the next four views are of this "built up" block. Also note that some of Henry's factory paint remains on the underside of the hood shelf.









I have a hard time imagining what lead to the creation of this marvel. At the Ford Shops there certainly was No One who had too much time on his hands to make this. Perhaps a test of some sort in the Wood Shop. We may never know. Your thoughts??
Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay, BC on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:57 am:

Wow, double sliding dovetail! I guess you could adjust the thickness by sliding before drilling the holes and bolting 'er down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 03:18 am:

Very interesting! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 04:02 am:

A peice of broken furniture that got used in production?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock Newfields NH on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 04:58 am:

I'm so broke I can't even pay attention! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 05:40 am:

Might that just be a join in feedstock for making the blocks? Today you can buy lengths of dimensioned timber which are made up of random lengths finger jointed together. This uses up all the Short bits, something Henry would have been pleased about.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 06:38 am:

That's my vote, Allan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 07:45 am:

Not so my friends. I purchased a body for a 24 Model T Touring and the wood in the car was assembled this same way. Door jamb uprights, upper wood framework pieces, interior door wood, and other parts of the wood skeleton came apart and you could see the wood was not a solid piece but sections put together. The body was an original one that had not been restored.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 09:31 am:

I think it comes down to the suppliers who made the wood pieces for Ford. As in the wood bodies they werent all the same. Depends on who made the parts that Ford contracted for the work. The detail work isnt always the same. Interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 09:46 am:

As stated: early form of finger jointing short pieces together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 11:14 am:

This is interesting. I have put together a few roadster bodies from parts found and have found that there are differences in door, side panels, seat frames and outher stamped & cast brackets that carry the the same part No. but are just a little different in alignment. There suppliers were meny and from all over the country depending on the assembly plant they were near.
This leads me to believe that when someone with great knowedge of model T's correctes you on a small part that is incorrects, you may be just as correct as he is.
Admair all the T's that people have spent meny hours on and have injoyed there efforts and only offer advice if ask for and help them.

My $.02 worth.Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 11:19 am:

Ford at some point into the black era used a machine made by a company or man named Linderman. I may have the name spelled wrong. On floorboard drawings for sure and perhaps other wood part drawings there is a statement of source material to be used. The drawing would state to make the part out of "oak, spruce, maple, fir, sycamore...etc" and included the words "linderman stock" in the list. Trent Boggess found some info on the machine and it was apparently a machine that took random length/width scrap wood pieces and made whole boards out of them. Today finger jointing of trim boards and things that will be painted is rather common way of making long clear boards. The idea thus is not a new one. I have no further info on the Linderman machine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:08 pm:

I am no T expert, but I do know some about woodwork and I am doubting the finger joint idea. Any efforts to make small stock larger would have been done square to the stock. The only time I have seen anything like the above shape used as a joint was a nondovetailed scarf joint used to make long planks in shipbuilding. The fact that this one is dovetailed and that the slant is so centered makes me feel it is made that way to be used as a quick thickness adjustment. If it had been a finger joint that just happened to get cut at that spot, it would have been glued solid. Was there any evidence of glue in that block? I bet there is no evidence of glue as it was only held by the metal peices going through the drilled holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:16 pm:

I removed similarly joined lumber from a '23 low cowl, steel firewall roadster. I think it's a case of the material scrap being greater than the labor rate and someone was using left over scraps to make up whole pieces.

My part was part of the right side nailer along the top edge of the passenger panel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay, BC on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:23 pm:

I don't believe that waterproof glues were to common at the time, hence the exotic joinery you see on old stuff, still need strength when the glue fails. Scarf joints in ship building weren't glued, but put together with white or redlead putty, or tar. There are an amazing number of variations in the joint, depending on how the joint will experience load, and of course where the builder was trained!

Here's the Linderman machine John speaks of.

linderman

The cut doesn't show an inclined dovetail, but that doesn't mean the machine couldn't make one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay, BC on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:25 pm:

Oh, also, I am a total nerd, and spend alot of time reading things here:


http://vintagemachinery.org/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:31 pm:

That part was cut from stock that was 'fashioned' or fabricated of wood pieces made on a Linderman machine as John Regan posted.

Check the net for the machine and this 1909 ad showed up:



Have seen other random parts of wood on T's that have similar dove tail joints only in partial areas. Floorboards show that method too.

Conserving wood was not a new idea, in 1909 the machine age and thought from individuals unencumbered by govt or tax gave birth to new ways to machine wood for fabricated parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:33 pm:

Darn you Christopher Lang. Now who knows how much time I will spend on that very interesting site.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:35 pm:

Christopher

We searched the same Google!

Also, I found a current co website that boasts it still uses "a 100 year old Linderman machine" to make cherry wood butcher blocks, no glue used, just jointed pieces of choice cherry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:44 pm:

I believe John Regan solved the mystery.

By doing a quick perusal on the Google machine, the double dovetail is indicative of a Linderman joint.

As John posted, a Linderman joint is a method of splicing wood stock. It appears that a Linderman joint is acceptable in wood stock used for constructing wooden crates, boxes, shipping containers, pallets, etc.

Google the following:
Linderman joint
Linderman jointed
Linderman dovetail
Linderman double dovetail
Linderman two dovetail

Your hood block may have started out as a shipping crate, or, to elaborate on John Regan's post, as a piece of long wood stock specifically created and set aside for making hood shelf blocks.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:46 pm:

Geez- I was wasting 10 minutes while others were solving the mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 12:56 pm:

Ive run into these dovetail joints on some of the later floor boards (say 1925 - 1927 era). They used them to make up wider boards. Before that they used a simple tongue and groove joint.

Dave S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 01:08 pm:

the original top bow on my '30 Sport Coupe was made this way too--it is what allowed me to calculate the original arch to the bow by utilizing the joint as a straight line--which it wasn't by then due to the years of snow on the car roof!
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 01:12 pm:

I had several pieces of wood that had once been glued up as an assembly in my Model A Town Sedan that showed no signs of glue, but I know it had been there at one time, as there was no dovetail or anything. Specifially, the pieces that go under the rear door where it rounds around the lower front of the rear wheel wells. Those were made up of probably 12 or more pieces of wood. The whole thing fell apart at the joints when I took the car apart. Like I say, no sign of glue, but you KNOW there was some in there originally. So just because you see no glue today, doesn't mean there wasn't some 80 or 90 plus years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay, BC on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 03:30 pm:

Yes, Vintage machinery is fun, formerly known as old wood working machinery. My shop is populated by many old machines, as new ones are way out of my price range. My wood lathe is from 1924, mortiser from about 1924, tennoner from the 50's, etc.

There were some beautifully complex mechanical wonders to save time and energy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 03:47 pm:

Now hear me out on this.

Look at the ends of the two pieces. Why are they not both cut flush with each other?

From what I can see of this machine, it will make wide boards by edge joining, but I just don't see it making dovetailed scarf joints to make small stock longer.

Think of it this way, why would Ford use a machine to make narrow stock longer, with this fancy joint, just so it can be cut into very short lengths?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Christopher Lang - Brentwood Bay, BC on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 04:02 pm:

Yup. they look close to flush.

Could be that wider stock was made, and this piece happened to get sawn like this when the edge was ripped square. Imagine a board that had been sawn crooked or tapered.

Could be that this was part of a much longer strip, that may have also been edge dovetailed. Done to eliminate butt joints in the made up stock, which was then ripped to size and cross cut.

Could be a combination.

Its pretty neat, no matter how it got there.

You might use the joint to make up longer boards, to use up short stock, to ease handling, or to have the layout (cutting) eliminate any waste. Say you want pieces X long, so you make up stock that is long enough to give you Y pieces, at X length, allowing for the kerfs from the saw blade. Then all you have is saw dust for waste at that stage.

You don't want to end up making more kingsford charcoal than you can sell! hahahaha!.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, September 02, 2011 - 05:31 pm:

Sound argument, but I still have my doubts. Of course, I am probably wrong.

Kingsford, still the best. I know Ford must have used that sawdust for something. Didn't he fire some burner with it for power generating or some such?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, October 01, 2011 - 08:18 pm:

I have just found this thread, one I must have overlooked. I found it very interesting as our Canadian Fordor had a lot of that type of dovetailing on the original framing. Unfortunately I no longer have the framing. It had to be discarded when we moved ten years ago. I wish I had taken photos of it when I had the chance.

Regards, John


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