My recently aquired 1915 Touring has 3.5" tires and wood wheels on the front and 4" tires and (wood) demountable wheels with split rims on the back.

I would like to go with demountables all round, so ............

1. Can the split rim demountables in the back use 3.5" tires like the ones that are on the front ?

2. I'm told that demountable wheels and rims come in several different flavors (manufacturers) and they are not compatible.
How do I tell who made the wheels/split rims that are on the back? Unfortunately there is no raised white lettering with the manufacturer's name on them.

Thanks
schuh

Schuh,

Bud,

In general the demountable wheels that were offered for the Model T Ford were either 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher – offered from the factory 1919 to 1926 or the 21 inch balloon tires offered as an option starting in 1925 and continuing until 1927. After market demountable varied but for most T applications were offered in those tow sizes.

No the 1925-1927 wheels cannot be safely be fitted with the 1919-1926 style clincher demountable (at least not to my knowledge – although someone may have made a custom adapter – to take up the space – I would not recommend doing that.)

I would recommend you check the front wheels and rims to determine what manufacture produced them and what style they are. And then if you already have two that are matched – I would suggest finding two more rear wheels with the same style felloes and 3 more rims. That way any rim could fit on any wheel.

Note Kelsey actually produce the Hayes style rim with the fixed lugs starting around Mar 1924 see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels for a description of when the different wheels were used.

You could also post some photos of your front wheels and rims and folks here can help you sort it out. Even better would be to contact the folks in the nearest T club – see: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm and http://mtfca.com/MTclubs.htm

See also the links below for some illustrations and discussion of the various wheel makers and rims:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/129583.html?1268272960 which also has some good links in it. There are lots of rims and felloes available – you just want to collect 4 wheels and 5 rims that are compatible. (Or 5 wheels and 6 rims if you want to have extras in case of a curb etc.).

One last thought – if you have the 21 inch balloon wheels on the rear – you may also have the larger 1926-27 rear axle with the larger 11 inch brake drums. Not a problem – you can install the larger brake drums on the earlier rear wheels and they will still fit your 1926-27 rear axle.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

So what are these? I have 4 that came with this chassis and want to go with 21's in either wood or wires. I will need to liquidate these if anyone is interested. They have the 26-7 drums on the rears. ws

Bill you already have 21in, those are not clinchers

John, those look like Hayes 30x3 1/2 clinchers from here. Dave

Bill, (also John and David)

Sometimes it is difficult from the photos for me to tell which direction the rim is curved. But since you can easily see it when you look at the rim the following is provided to help folks know if they have the clincher style or the balloon style rims. At: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/14535.html Dave DeYoung posted photos of both the clincher and the balloon rims:



Above is Dave DeYoung’s photo of a 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim (Thank's Dave!).



The above illustration shows the profile of a clincher rim. Note – Ford USA produced Model Ts used 30 x 3 non demountable as well as 30 x 3 1/2 non demountable and demountable rims. For more photos and information on the 30 x 3 and the 30 x 3 1/2 wheels please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109798.html?1255311482

The 21 inch split rim the outside edge of the rim on both sides points outward rather than curving back like the clincher.



Above is the general shape of the 21 inch split – the illustration is NOT of a Ford standard rim – but lets you know it is NOT like the clincher.





Above are the photos of the 21 inch split rim from Dave DeYoung -- thank you --

As I looked at the photos you posted above I could not really tell for sure which way your rim is -- clincher or split. Please let us know if it is the clincher style or not. I am leaning towards clincher. If that is true and they were originally furnished by Ford Motor Company they would be the 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers. But you have the real answer -- so please let us know which way it really is.

And then to add a little more confusion – at least one after market wheel manufacture produced a wheel for the Fords that could take a clincher or repeat or a straight sided tire. So if you have something other than what came on the USA made car – it adds to the number of possible answers.

For future photos with the request for what type of rim – if possible please shoot them at an angle so we can easily tell if they are clincher or split rim.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Alittle off topic, but does anyone a picture of the correct use of a rim spreader? Seems to me there was a pik on the forum but i cant find it. Also need to buy one if any for sale. Thanks Van

I was raised on 4.50 X 21 split rims on our 26&7s and aside from the fact that the tires we cut off said 30 X 3, I would have to assume these are 30 inch wheels. The rims which are not split measure 2-1/16 wide with a well rolled edge to the inside. NOT like the 4.50s at all. The wheels themselves measure in at just about 23-1/2 as the center cap gets in the way of an accurate measurement.
Soooo, I am guessing these are 30 inch demountable clinchers with 26-7 drums on the rears. That being said, I am still in the market for some 21 inch woods or wires. Maybe even some Model A 21s or even 19s if someone can give me the lug spacing, like 3-1/2 X 5 holes.

Well from all the helpful comments I think I've learned a few things.

The pictures below seem to indicate that I have 4.5 x 21 baloon tires on demountable rims on the rear with 3.5 x 30 clinchers on the front.

The original object was to have one spare on a demountable rim for front or back.

There doesn't seem to be any way to do this incorporating some of the wheel/tires I have.

Do I have to mount new wheels all the way around?

BTW can anyone tell me who made the demountable wheels/rims ?

Cheers
schuh

For Richard

Some split rim spreader pics:

Dan -- as always thank you for your excellent photos and encouragement.

Bud,

If you are located near one of the clubs or a club member, a 5 minute walk around your car by someone knowledgeable on the different wheels and rims used by Ford USA would likely answer most of your questions and give you a chance to me a new friend.

First – it appears that both of the photos you posted are of your left rear wheel which is a 21 inch split rim balloon tire. So without any photos of the front wheels I cannot comment on them.

If the two photos are not of the same left rear wheel please let us know – as it might impact the answer. Assuming the photos are of the same left rear wheel, I believe it is a “Hayes” style fixed lug. The reason I say “Hayes style” is that several manufactures produced that style for Ford in addition to Hayes. If it is a Hayes rim and felloe – you can sometimes find the word “Hayes” stamped on one or more of the fixed lugs as well as on the felloe. It is NOT a Kelsey style loose lug rim or felloe (i.e. the felloe does NOT have any slot for the lose lug to press against). That is actually an assumption based on the slots the 30 x 3 1/2 Kelsey wheels have – if someone has a Kelsey style 21 inch balloon rim and wheel – would they please check to see if the felloe has those slots or not?

Below are the typical Kelsey slots on a 30 x 3 1/2 felloe (Thank you Bob Wood) the wood spokes are missing -- but the lug on the rim and the slot on the rim and the felloe are easy to see:



Note Kelsey often put NO 88 inside the felloe as shown in Mike Brown's photo below (Thanks Mike):



Below is a photo of a Kelsey 21 inch style wheel, lug and rims [actually a Canadian version -- you can see the holes for the Canadian split rim tool if you look at the lower left removable lug]:



Even if you have four different style wheels on your car – assuming one of them is in good condition and has a matching rim, you can purchase three other wheels to match it and four other rims and you will have a set. I personally like the Hayes Style fixed lug wheels best – and that style rim, felloe, and even wire wheel with that felloe are being reproduced. Additionally Ford switched to only that style near the end of 1924 (see posting above)

Not mentioned, but I would like to make sure you know the 1918 and earlier USA Fords were equipped with non-demountable wheels 30 x 3 in front and 30 x 3 1/2 in the rear. But it makes it a lot easier to change a flat if you have the demountable rims. (Actually the work is about the same – but instead of having to do it in the rain on the side of the road as the trucks go by, we can do it at home on a nice day – or when one of the younger son-in-laws show up.)

If you would like additional details, please post photos showing the felloes and rims – especially the valve stem area, the lug areas, and from several angles. The Hayes style felloe often had a slot where the Hayes style fixed lug slid into the slot in the felloe so the lug did not keep the rim from seating on the felloe. Photos showing the felloe and if it does or does not have a slot can help with that identification.

Also I was wondering about several of your lug nuts that are not run down on your lug bolts. Is that because the lug bolt is short, there is something behind the lug (washer etc) or something else?

It may look a little confusing at the moment – but once you get it sorted out it will make plenty of sense.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Bill, the rim diameter is measured on the part of the rim that the bead sets on, not the O.D. of the rim. A 30x3 tire uses a 24" rim, a 30x3 1/2 uses a 23" rim. The demountable rims (clincher) are all 30x3 1/2, so if the tires that were on your rims were 30x3, they were the wrong ones. You have Hayes 30x3 1/2 wheels and rims, as far as I can tell from your pictures.

Thanks David! Over the last 50 or so years Ive owned/been involved with probably 15 Ts of the 26-27 vintage and think I know them pretty well... Sure not used to this antique stuff tho LOL! The time will be at hand shortly when these will be put up for adoption and I surely want to be able to correctly identify them. In the previous posts, I may have been premature in stating the sizes... All four were flatter than roadkill so we took a hand saw and cut the old tires off, not paying real close attention to the size.
So the big question... are these harder/more desireable wheels to come by? The four wheels look good and 2 of the rims show a little "wastage" from rust due to sitting for years on flat tires with water in the carcasses.
As a kid, we used to go junking at farms and junk yards and always had a bevy of late model T stuff to choose from, never thinking that the time would come that Id hafta shop across the country for parts. Thank God for the internet!

Dan and Hap

The photos Dan posted (showing the spreader tool) look exactly like the rims I have on the rear. I didn't post a picture of the right rear because it is identical to the left rear shown. Dan, do you know if those were Hayes wheels/rims ?

Hap, your right in that the lugs on my rear wheels are fixed or welded to the rims. (Beautiful job too as you can hardly see the welds. I wonder if they were spot welded somehow?).

You said that several manufactures produced that style for Ford in addition to Hayes. Can I assume that if it "looks right" it will fit up?

The front tires are without doubt 30x3 1/2 clinchers and are not demountable. Probably came with the car (1915)

So to make everything compatable I would need 2 Hayes demountable wheels/rims for the front. But is it desireable to mount the 21x4.5 baloons in the front or does that mess up the steering?

One final note... I would love to visit a MTFCA chapter for advice and education, but I think Panama City, FL may be the spot in the US farthest from any chapter. None in GA or AL and the FL chapters are all about 350 miles away. May have to plan another roadtrip, I guess.

Thanks to all for the good info and pictures. You can't find this stuff in any book I've found !!!

Cheers all ;o)

schuh

Finally thanks to Hap I got to identify what the two wheels I have on my '21 are. Kelseys, am I correct to assume there is another seperate piece that goes with the lug bolt and clamps the rim to the wheel? If so anyone have a photo? is lug bolt different?

Bill – a quick scan of ebay for Model T Wheels shows about an equal number of 30 x 3 1/2 demountable and 21 inch balloon split rims tonight (also a good number of Model T wire wheels and wire wheel hubs). Based on that unscientific survey – both can be obtained. Also Model T Haven has them for sale regularly see: http://www.modelthaven.com/parts.html and scroll down to see the three different listing with photos of both sizes. And of course the vendors sell the Hayes style reproduction rim (lug is slightly different on the reproduction – but a very good rim) in both the 30 x 3 1/2 and the 21 inch balloon split rim and for the exact same price (higher than my budget – but they are really nice). Based on that very limited research I would say they are about the same. Note because some 1926-27 closed cars are parted out – those wheels and rims in good condition come up routinely on ebay.

Schuh (Bud) –

Question: The photos Dan posted (showing the spreader tool) look exactly like the rims I have on the rear. I didn't post a picture of the right rear because it is identical to the left rear shown. Dan, do you know if those were Hayes wheels/rims ? Hap’s input based solely on the photos and subject to Dan’s verification or correction. The top photo Dan posted that had the tire on the rim – that rim had the fixed lugs and is the Hayes style (again – Ford contracted with several suppliers to supply the same style wheel and yes they were interchangeable.) But not the lower photo of the just the rim does NOT have the fixed lugs and is NOT the Hayes style. Since there is not a tire on the rim – if it is still that way, Dan may be able to read who made that rim.

Question: You said that several manufactures produced that style for Ford in addition to Hayes. Can I assume that if it "looks right" it will fit up? Answer: NO Many aftermarket as well as other car manufactures produces similar looking rims. Some will fit with minor modification – such as many of the Chevy rim of the same size. They only need the valve stem hole relocated on either the fellow or the rim to work with the Hayes style felloe on a Ford. Others will be too large or too small or too wide etc. But if you have rims originally supplied on a Ford and they look like the Hayes style – they will interchange as long as you keep them with the same compatible felloe. I.e. after 1924 when Ford switched to only the Hayes style rim and felloe or as long as the rim and felloe are compatible. I.e Kelsey with Kelsey; Hayes 2845B & Ford 2845B with similar felloes; Ford 2845C rim (made by both Cleveland and Firestone for Ford) with its felloe; or Ford 2845D rim (again made by both Cleveland and Firestone for Ford) with its felloe – all of those are 30 x 3 1/2 or for the 21 inch split rim the Hayes style (produced by multiple sources for Ford) with the 21 inch Hayes style felloe or the 21 inch Kelsey style rim with the 21 inch Kelsey style felloe (not Kelsey USA and Kelsey Canada varied a little but will still fit and function ok). But if the were originally sold on a new Ford and if they look the same – often they are the same – but it is wise to try mounting them. There has been more than one “new modern day owner” of a T who had a flat and discovered that his spare rim did not fit the wheel that had the flat.

Question: The front tires are without doubt 30x3 1/2 clinchers and are not demountable. Probably came with the car (1915) Yes and no. If your car was a Canadian produced car – they did come with 30 x 3 1/2 front non-demountable clinchers from 1909 until they were no longer offered. Also 1915 -16 or so ambulances produced by Ford USA had 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers. But the standard USA 1909-1918 cars had a 30 x 3 inch clincher on the front [see the diagram earlier in the posting showing the difference in size of the two rims].

Question: So to make everything compatible I would need 2 Hayes demountable wheels/rims for the front. But is it desirable to mount the 21x4.5 balloons in the front or does that mess up the steering? Answer: That would be one way to obtain all the same size tires and a single spare for your car. The steering would be a little harder than with the 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers but on a light touring it is not that big of a deal. Ford change the steering ratio for cars with the balloon tires in 1925ish – but it is more important with a heavier closed car than an open car. But -- I would recommend you evaluate how you want the car to ride and look. The 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers look more appropriate on the earlier car than the 21 inch balloon tires – but that is only if the person knows what it should look like in the first place. And in that case they know it would have come with non-demountables. If you go to the photo gallery section you can see several cars with the balloon vs the demountable clinchers vs the nondemountables. There isn’t a safety issue – but an issue of what do you want?

Question: One final note... I would love to visit a MTFCA chapter for advice and education, but I think Panama City, FL may be the spot in the US farthest from any chapter. None in GA or AL and the FL chapters are all about 350 miles away. May have to plan another roadtrip, I guess. There is an active MTFCI chapter in Birmingham AL and North Georgia Ts are located in Fairmount, GA 30139 see: http://mtfca.com/MTclubs.htm We have had a couple of folks from the “Emerald Coast” area post before and there may be enough interest to start club down your way. If your are interested recommend go to: http://mtfca.com/clubpages/board.htm and share your thoughts and ask them how many national members do they show within 100 miles of you? Also putting a note on the forum – asking for others who might be interested could help.

Sort of a Question: You can't find this stuff in any book I've found !!! If you order a copy of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” [available from Bruce at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/mccalley.htm or the vendors] it actually has the information I have used for most of my answers. His CD includes the “Price List of Parts”

I’m sure you will have it sorted out and come to good solution.

For Greg – be sure your rims and felloes have that raised notch as one of the other loose lug rims looks similar but uses a lug around the valve stem on the rim to fit into the hole in the felloe to keep the rim from rotating while the Kelsey 88 rim used a lug that straddles one of the lug bolts. Another good source in addition to Bruce’s CD is the vendor’s catalog. Sometimes it is a little off – but often it is very helpful. See the removable Kelsey style lugs at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/2846B.aspx the nut with the flat shoulder: http://www.modeltford.com/item/2848B.aspx And the demountable rim bolt is the same on the Kelsey and the Hayes.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off