I was just sitting here reading my new Vintage Ford and the adds in the back and this question came to mind, When dose a restored Model T stop being a Model T.
Now over the years in the interest of my family's safety and the car club rules I fitted laminated glass to the windscreen, blinkers as my local asians and young female drivers had no idea what hand signals where, an electric stop lamp globe to my tail light and two 40watt globes in my gas head lamps should I get caught out late coming home from a tour but the gas still works just that you can not buy rock carbide in my state as its a banned item, all this on my 1913 and in my view its not right and keep it in with how the car was built and the spirit of the time it was made.
Now my point here is this, how far do you go before it becomes a hot rod or why not just dive your new ford or chevy or suv?.
There are alternators instead of the generators, QI globes instead of the good old 6V globes, there are steering boxs and rack and pinion steering fitted but the one on the steering column worked on 15M cars so if we are being true to the car why are they needed, We have fluid brakes on the rear, guys cutting the front axle so the can fit brakes to the front with out changing the width of the track and now disc brakes and soon they will be on the front, if you are running wooden spoke wheels no matter how much braking you have it is still a tiny amount of road contact and WOODEN spokes so some thing will give. there are those who cut the chassis to make them longer and shorter, We have now fitted Shock absorbers of later vehicles, made Alloy spoke wheels, A cranks, B cranks, new Up draft carbys, new Down draft carbys off later engines, fitted gear boxs of newer vehicles behind the old T transmission to get more gears, Volvo overdrives, Jaguar over drives, electric fans for more cooling, water pumps off newer cars to get it moving faster (which really is not cooling the car as its passing through to fast) and I could add more but why? there was over 5000 after market items made in the 1920 just for these reason and they can still be found and with all of these new fit on's we may as well park the T and drive the 66 mustang around, O'I forgot we are changing them as well, You go on a tour now and some members just take off and leave the rest with all these items fitted as the rest are to slow but I was under the impression thats why we drive the "T"..
I am not coming down on those that want that bit extra but what happened to the dream of a car built in the turn of the century so we could be part of that era? and some where in the Constitution of the clubs we belong to it said we "preserve the car"... Please tell my why and the can of worms is open... Ray

I've always considered the "soul" of the car to be the engine, the tranny to be it's heart, and the axles/wheels to be it's limbs. However, if you put a Model T Ford engine in a Volkswagen does it become a "Fordsvagen"?

The conglomerations you see with Ford Radiators and not a damn piece of anything else "Ford" are not Model T's.

I have a 6volt alternator on mine, but it's still a T. Just cannot afford to get the gennie fixed.

I think that anything you add to the car that was available during the car's original manufacturing period, would still qualify the car as a Model T.

I think you have hit on a subject that everyone has trouble with at some point. Once you begin to modify the T in ways not totally necessary you then start down a slippery slope. Hard to stop but I can tell you that when I read a classified ad for a T and the owner lists all the nice modifications like A crank, alternator, 12V system...etc. - I don't read much beyond that. As a design engineer I can really get trapped into making things "better" but I have settled in to try and tell myself that the only real definition of "better" is to make the car more like the original. The fun for me as an engineer is to see if I can make the original engineering work. Most of the time I can. Sometimes I can't.

William, thats a fair item (as I have blinkers) even through I can not see the cost being so high over there, there is a guy here who overhauls them for $180 and even converts them to 12v while doing it if wanted, as you say "a fordsvagen" but its like cutting a chassis to fit a bigger body so then get a truck frame or cutting down for a dirt track racer but stay on the track and not on the road, you don't build a helicopter to drive on the freeway when it should be in the air.. Ray

John, lets look at the ignition as a good example, we had and have coils and they work great and that ticking sound is music but then we found original distributors and they where made in the 1920 and should be there but the problems come with them and age of the item but next was the Lucas or VW distributors fitted and no more music and now solid state off the shelf from new cars and they have problems I am told. Soon Ron Patterson will be redundant and he is a T treasure we need. Ray

Ray, I agree that a T should be made of T parts (1908 to 1927). The thrill of having a T and driving it should be that it is all the way that "grandpa" drove it when he took the family for rides.
Dick

I plead guilty to adding a brake handle pawl spring, a six volt battery in the trunk for starting (weak MAG), modern rear axle seals, a fun Projects coil box kit, and carb shut off valve. But I draw the line at alternators, twelve volt conversions, water pumps, distributors, starters before 1919, etc., etc. When does it all become too much? Dunno. I guess it's like the Supreme Court take on pornography. I don't know that I can define it, but I know it when I see it.

We all draw our line in the sand at different points; so there is no definitive answer to when a T is no longer a T. Add this question to the "Which engine oil?", "Which spark plugs?" and "Which type of transmission bands?".

Main thing is that YOU are happy with the way your car is...if others don't agree that's their problem.

Any Model T that puts on a lot of miles and has to traffic-jam with SUVs and hat-backwards kids in their new Camaros needs every advantage. That means some kind of auxiliary brakes to augment the pitiful driveline unit, turn signals and brake lights, a little extra oomph in the engine by way of a hi-compression head or something like that, a self-starter to quickly get you out of trouble when you stall in heavy traffic, and, if you drive any distance late in the day, bright head and tail lights and the electrical system to back them up with plenty of juice.

If, on the other hand, your car gets only occasional use on lightly traveled country roads, on bright, beautiful, blue-sky days... well, that's a whole 'nuther ball game and of course, there, you can safely operate an originally equipped Model T. It's all a matter of the kind of utility you're going to demand from the car.

This is a familiar discussion in the antique airplane and warbird world, too. A lot of money rides on the success of an air show and most of the guys who fly the heavy WWII iron have plenty experience pushing that stuff through instrument conditions to get where they're going to be needed. It's practical and safe enough if the P-51 or Corsair you're talking about is fitted out with modern, dependable avionics, but then, everybody laments about the non-original instrument panel and the big-screen GPS sitting where the gunsight ought to be.



The argument always comes down to the same thing: The level of safety equipment needed depends on the level of utility you're going to demand from the vehicle.

Bob

I think we should look at ourselves as caretakers and custodians of these pieces of history for our allotted years and then pass them on to the next generation. The more we can preserve as original, the more successful we are. The more we adapt and change, the more that is lost forever.
Joe

i wonder the same thing. If you have to get the car going again with a few non-original parts (like the people that have fitted distributors because they did not know better or have the means to fix the coils) or fitted aftermarket brakes because they use it in heavy traffic it might still be a T but some things just don't seem right

Also keep in mind that many cars were modified soon after they were first sold; there were hundreds of non-Ford accessory products invented for the Model T with many sold by Ford dealers. Electric lights and electric start was an aftermarket accessory and dealer option in 1913. A recent post on this forum shows that front brakes were around in 1914. This creates a grey area.

Hi Constantine. (Add this question to the "Which engine oil?", "Which spark plugs?" and "Which type of transmission bands?) they are not a question in this can of worms as there is really a small choice in plugs and oils that will work out of whats on the market and only the Kevlar bands are new and they are needed to run so that is a dead item. As to We all draw our line in the sand at different points, that line was drawn by your club and the traffic authority years ago when your club first applied for plates and wrote out the Constitution, most clubs in Australia have the same wording that have been going for a long time and will have the phrase, original engine, gearbox and drive train and chassis and wheels, original radiator and bonnet and firewall after that you can add what body or colour or extras you like to preserve the car as it was made, not a fire wall at the extreme looking like to the flight deck of a 747 like a photo once displayed on this forum, you only need two gauges and one was put there by Henry and Boyce gave you the other in a motor meter. We have people out here that drive their cars as every day vehicles and they do not have all that stuff, yes better brakes would be good but as i said its still wood spokes and 4 square inchs of road contact on two wheels no matter what you put on (try a anchor) and a wet road will take that away from you.
Bob, (auxiliary brakes to augment the pitiful driveline unit, turn signals and brake lights, a oomph in the engine by way of a hi-compression head,a self-starter to quickly get you out of trouble, and, if you drive any distance late in the day, bright head and tail lights and the electrical system to back them up with plenty of juice.) you have listed most of what was available in the 1920's as aftermarket extras except the bright head lamps but the ones fitted can do it and as for a extra juice, that came a lot later and you do not need an alternator for that but rewind what you have to 12 volts and its a no display extra.. Ray

Constantine, there where a lot of extra fitted to cars but not Gabriel shock absorbers, in our case a Holden gear box, drum brakes of a VW Passat or another vehicle worked by a master cylinder, a gauge for every working part of the car, disc brakes all round, electronic ignition, lets make it go faster with A crank or B crank, carby's off koller engines and Stromburg or SU to name a few. Then we have the cut and shut brigade which is whole new ball game and we will not go there.
Kep, all those things where sold in the 1920's like the Rocky mountain brakes and thats all you need and in 1920 there where 12 other ignition systems to fit that look the part. Ray

Hi Ray,

Good to see that you're back here.

Hear what you're saying but in practice it's impossible for everyone to agree or to come to a consensus on when a T is no longer a T, hence comparing the question to "Which engine oil?", "Which spark plugs?" and "Which type of transmission bands?. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that even different T clubs would disagree when a T ceases to be a T.

Let's look at my 1913 T:

It has no electric start, maintains the original coil system and runs on magneto, there's no water or fuel pump, it has the correct non-demountable wooden wheels, and has the correct 1913 diff.

I've fitted have RM brakes, Z head, NH straight carby (I have removed the original Holley S) fitted with an air-cleaner, runs a 12v batt.

A purist would say my car is no longer a T because RM brakes, alloy hi-comp heads, 12v batt were not available in 1913. Others would say my car is a T but not a 1913 T anymore. Others would say it's maddness to say my car is no longer a T or a 1913 T just because I've made changes to improve power, safety and reliability/usability. Who's right? They all are; as I said we all draw our line in the sand at different points.

Ray, I am glad you came back! I have missed your postings for some time.

On this issue I am mostly on your side. Whether my coupe, or a speedster, I want my cars to look like they came out of an era photograph. I do like accessories, but not too many, and not later things. I want my speedsters to be of the era within a couple years of the chassis, and never later than '27. The 1913 speedster I am working on does qualify by HCCA rules and will not have any accessories newer than 1915.

My coupe, I refer to it as "well accessorized", has quite a few correct vintage goodies on it. It also has a few things that I would not put on a car (12 volt electric, but a vintage 12V generator so it doesn't look too bad). I got it earlier this year and have already made several vintage corrections. The electric system will wait till two other cars are done, or it fails in almost any way, whichever comes first. If it had an alternator, it would have been off the first week.

For other people, if they want to build their speedster body a wrong way, paint flames on it, or use clearly '30s and '40s style and accessories, I say fine. It is a free (?) country. It is their property. They can do as they please, BUT they should know what they have and what it is not.

The same goes for stock bodied cars. I do like correct vintage accessories. The Ruckstell, Rocky Mountain six speed, A/C brakes and hand pump pressurized gas tank make the car especially drivable in the mountainous area where I live. The pressure gauge means I have three gauges.

And I truly admire a T that is very close to how it left the factory. After the two running I have,and the three cars I am working on, that is the next T I am after. I have a good start on parts. I may be able to put together an early '20s roadster. But, that isn't really "preservation".

That covers my opinion, and my vote.
Again, Ray, welcome back.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I'm with Bob C - if you plan to drive your car in a modern environment, some compensations are almost a must, at least in the name of safety. My tudor has a high compression head, after market Atlas exhaust manifold heater, AL pistons, stainless steel Chevy valves, rocky brakes, a bicycle speedometer, Ruckstell, and period turn signal/brake lights. I don't regret putting on the 'extras" in the least, even though some may say that it takes away from it's originality. I still am using the original block and transmission, still use the vaporizer, still have the magneto and the 6 volt system, nothing in the body or interior has been changed. It still runs like a T, looks like a T and reacts like a T. For me, I drive an antique car because I enjoy history and I get to "experience" it for a brief moment every time I drive it. I wish I could afford a Stewart speedometer, but when one compares $30.00 to $$$$$$$, the bike speedo wins out. As many have said, it's a personal opinion where one draws the line. For me, once it begins to not feel, look or sound like a T, the nostalgia will be missing, as well.

OK, I plead guilty. My car is 12V with an alternator and a 12V starter. The engine in it is substantially modified to keep up with modern traffic.
Now here's the rub. I have the original (numbers matching) engine complete with starter, generator, coils etc. "pickeled" in a crate (running when I pulled it out) and everything else necessary to return this car to absolutely bone stock should the time come when I have to sell it. Which I'm sad to say, circumstances have made a reality. More on that later.

I run a stock standard T in modern traffic and don't need all the modern nonsense. I also live in a hilly area. It keeps up with suburban traffic and stops quite adequately. But then it is the Improved Ford.
6V, timer& coils, standard brakes, standard headlights, etc. And horror of horrors I even drive in the rain and at night!
I get the impression most modifications are done in the name of 'improving' on some perceived inadequacy in Ford's design. And it's these cars that seem to have more reliability problems; eg. accessory brakes locking up, aluminium timing gears disintegrating, weird alternator and electrical faults, high speed clutch problems, kevlar cracked drums, 12V damaged bendix, etc. etc.

Hi John, came through your town on Monday arvo, that road works and traffic was unreal and of coarse I was over loaded with T parts again as I have shifted it all now, I really dont know how you drive up there.... Ray

As others have said, my own belief is that it's a bit of an individual choice while you own it.

Go to the International club way and they have their point deduct system, go to AACA and you have the quadrant of the moon and luck of the draw as to a judge who may specialize in Edsels, yet AACA does now have the historic preservation category. It goes on and on.

In my view, it sort of depends on what you start with as I am certainly not one to call for purism view or a modification view and flip back and forth on my own cars.

I have a '15 Runabout that by all accounts was as pure as the day Henry made it when I got it from the 2nd owner...and it stays that way at all costs and efforts (yet yielded to a Fun Projects coil box rebuilt for a marked improvement...I did 'paint' what shows through the firewall holes with a black acrylic non-conducting paint).

I have a '25 that came with a large drum rear, and have often thought of changing it out to a small, only to discover in further research that there is a statistical bump in large drum rears on closed cars built after April 1925. Short of a drawing search at BF...thats enough to leave the large drum in place for now to me.

The 3rd was a bitsey when received, and it's going to stay a bitsey even though I have enough parts to 'do it right' laying around and in good condition. A bitsey can be fun as once this way, I would not feel compromised adding anything to it if necessary, even being creative, as someone else already made it a bitsey before me.

Three compromises I would make on anything I own that needs it is if I needed a head, I'd probably start with a 'Z'...if I needed to do a rebuild there would be aluminum pistons and lightweight rods, and if I needed a crank, there is no doubt in my mind what I'd do before I started 'ringing' junkers.

As far as safety items? All for it! Fuse all the ones with batteries. 2nd shut off for fuel line? All for it. Turn signals and flashers? All for it---to a point, and that point being an 'of the era' sympathetic view to how executed and installed.

As to oil...haha...you got me there...they ALL still have straight 30 weight, and that one seems to be getting a bit long in tooth as all my engines have a bunch of miles on them, the '15 still does 45+ all on its own and is smooth as silk, but I do believe I may have some sludge-ups that an occassional bath of kero sloosh doesn't get to. So who knows on that one, but I did finally buy 5 quesrts of multi-weight detergent oil for a day when I feel brave

I'll agree with one comment already made...I've seen a lot of soft failures and hard failures in my time with others and their cars, and most of the 'here's a better way' stuff sems to lend itself to hard failures more than the old stuff would. But, have the right spares on hand...other than the inconvenience, still easy to work on!

Just my .02....

As another question then, every one wants safety and list the almost same things BUT how many of you throw away the original glass in your windscreen and replace it with safety glass or laminated glass or new plate glass or just clean up what you have and put it back?. I was on the Arizona shoot out many years back and 4 of the cars I traveled in had plate glass which in the owners view was the best cheap way to go.

As another question then, every one wants safety and list the almost same things BUT how many of you throw away the original glass in your windscreen and replace it with safety glass or laminated glass or new plate glass or just clean up what you have and put it back?. I was on the Arizona shoot out many years back and 4 of the cars I traveled in had plate glass which in the owners view was the best cheap way to go... Ray

Well if it can be bolted on or sprayed on,it can be reversed.
I think a alternator is a functional device and probably is a good thing for a T that is driven many miles,but it looks butt ugly under the hood of a T.Looks normal under the hood of a modern car.
A distributar,well,again,probably a reliable add on,if you drive 100's of miles and are skeered of coils,but it dont look right under the hood of a T.
To a point you just have to let each man,or woman,have their T the way they want it.And be glad they want a T .
Alot of folkes dont have much regard for a T that is put together from parts.Well,they built them out of parts at the factory didnt they? duh.

When a windshield shard slices through your eye and pierces your brain, it's very inconvenient and disappointing. Safety glass for sure.

ooops, me bad.......Safety glass all the way around, already done on all I use. I consider that an absolute MUST.

Yea, to what Steve says.Once your brain is screwed up,it aint purty.Trust me.
Safty glass is something I can see as logical and dont take away from the looks of the car at all.

"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve it’s appearance.

The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"
--------

What you think of me is none of my business, so don't bother to tell me.

rdr

Mack, there must be a hundred parts cars around the state as I have given around 10 to 12 ton of parts away over the years to many guys starting off, the best one was a guy rang up wanting some parts and I was in the mood to get rid of the lots so told him to bring $50 and he could take all he could fit into his van, the guy turned up with a dam tip truck and took the lot and wanted to leave his kid behind as the cab was filled up also, no way I wanted the kid so I took some bits back, his idea was if it had plate glass when made then that should go back in, silly boy... Ray

Hey guys, Im in the wrong here with one of my statements. I for got that this sign is on the freeway out of Sydney and on the exit to a major racecourse till loretta reminded me so dirt track guys welcome to the road.. ( you don't build a helicopter to drive on the freeway when it should be in the air) .... Ricks this sign is to match that one on your road.... Ray

Interesting reading. I'm with John Regan and John H. I like my T's with VERY few modifications. My TT has a Fun Projects VR on it. The truck was originally non-electric, but someone before me added the starter. I seldom use it. I would never have added one if it hadn't already been done. It also has a FP coil box kit. I'd do that again in a heartbeat. I don't have a problem with adding batteries under the seat for easier starting. Got that on Karen's '18 Touring along with a FP coilbox kit. I might consider AC or RM brakes, but I'm not scared to drive without them. I do have a magnetic flashing LED light for night driving beacuse I do believe the oil tail lamp is too dim to be safe. I don't want to be rear ended. Headlights? Good enough for what I use them for, even the magneto ones. I wouldn't want to drive 40 miles of bad dirt road in the dark, but for the occasional time you get stuck out after dark or need to drive home from a once a year evening Christmas parade, I can live with them. Ruckstells/Warfords/Distributors/Alternators, Water Pumps/Fuel Pumps/Electric Fans/12 volt Starting Systems.....Like John Regan said, people advertise all these things like they are a plus. I see them as a minus, something I would have to 'correct' if I were to buy it. Plate glass? Defintiely needs to be replaced with safety glass! And I'm gonna do that one day.

As for the braking with wood spokes and narrow tires.....The wood spokes stand up to locking up the rear wheels, so I don't see that as a factor. As for the narrow tires, been a long time since Physics class, but I was taught F=uN. Friction equals the coefficient of friction times the normal force. Area doesn't play a part. It does in heat dissipation which I suppose could affect COF, but I don't believe a T with 6 inch wide tires will stop in half the distance of one with 3 inch wide tires.

If I wanted to improve my Model T to the point of thinking 'maybe this is to much' I would would move up to a Model A or an early V8. Pretty simple

Like some others, I enjoy old things that can still get he job done and be relevent even with 100 year old technology. So, I don't like to mess up that early technology but instead get it to work as intended and prove it can still do the job. Something of a tribute to the smart people who made our nation great without the need of computers, calculators, lasers, facebook, email, spreadsheets, cell phones, or any other high tech devices. Just their mind, a pencil and maybe a slide rule.

Yes, my cars have distributors. But, only 1920's era. Within the period of the Model T. It's still the T experience if an original owner could have equipped his car the same in say 1927.

That's me however.

At least here in South Australia our "Historic Log Book" registration system reads vehicles must be "...as manufactured" to comply. We have 90 days use for anout $150 per year. There are heavy fines if caught outside of this including the offending club losing its registration status, fines etc. Every club here allows items for saftey; stop & tail light, turning indicators, safety glass windscreen, windscreen wiper, rear view mirror(s), electrifying acetylene lights if need be. Bands etc. are required to drive the car and can't be seen anyway. Period modifcations are allowed such as Fronty's etc., but I stress period only.

However, outside of this and your vehicle will not be registered. So all of this aftermarket crap like disc brakes etc. fall outside of our Historic Log Book system and will require the vehicle to front for a safety inspection with an engineers report to support the mechanical changes. Even with all this the vehicle will only be regsitered under normal regsiatrtion (about $600 per year for a 4 cylinder) and not the cheaper log book system.

I have been toying with the idea of restoring a 1915/16 WW1 AIF Ambulance and have looked at a the body overhang. My idea, and I am not the first, is to run a Warford or a Jumbo by cutting the chassis and lengthening it the appropriate amount. This would give me a longer wheelbase and a gearbox on a car ratio. I have scuttled the idea as the chassis will have to be modified and will not be as manufactured and therefore my club will not enetertain the idea of registering it.

I like our South Australian "Historic Log Book" system and am very glad the rules are as they are. I agree an interesting debate...Dave C.

WOW Ray, you've started a hot topic there, l'll throw my hat in the ring and say, l aint puttin nothin on my car that wasn't there when it left the factory, except for kevlar band linings.
Purist l dont consider my self to be, BUT, Z heads, aux trans ( l agree with the RM's )in my own personal opinion take away the reason we drive 100 year old cars, fun relaxed and enjoyable times behind the wheel, instead of an old car semi hotted up to either go faster than others, my runabouts good for that, or get the tour over with faster !!!, if thats the case, thats easy too, why do it, lifes fast pace should be given a break when we climb into a man toy like our T's.

PS- the air in my tires isn't 98 years old !!!!

David.

David C:

So, is what you're saying that if the vehicle doesn't abide by the "Historic Log Book" system that it would be subject to the normal registration fee?

Seems like a good system to encourage keeping the cars stock.

Don't over think this one boys; it stops being a Model T when you put that first piece of chrome on it.

Look at the car's title. Does it still say Ford Model T? If so you've got a Ford Model T. When you make a modification and you are concerned with what type of car you now have just pull out that title and see if the modification caused it to change.

It's your car, make yourself happy. If you want it all stock that is a wonderful thing to do. If you want air conditioning and a sound system, it's your car. If you want to enter a concours show then don't heavily modify, just over-restore. If you want to go on tour with a club either build it like they want or just keep the hood down and your mouth closed.

So if you want to know what type of car you have after you do what you want to it, look at the title! It should say manufacturer, model, year and owner. If you put in that turbo-hydramatic and airbags it is still Ray's car, who cares what any of the other people say?

Nope Eric......it becomes a T with some chrome on it.......

I'm not promoting making a T, or anything else, into something it isn't but if I wanted my T's to be something else I'd have bought something else.......

Here's the dilemma; most of us want correct or non-modified cars but the fact is when these cars were new or near new their owners were making them brake better with accessory brakes (RM, Bennett, and even front brakes) and also adding extra power with Ricardo, Big Power heads not to mention Rajo and Frontenac. Suspension was changed with Hasslers shocks and other types. There was even a 4wd conversion kit!

Hi Constatine, you revert back to the same things, you need to think about what you have said, most of the extras or accessory did not appear till the 1920 or there about so the early cars where on the way out so they would not have all those things fitted and most workers at that time earned only a few dollars a day so they could not afford to waste money on the higher priced items you mention but those interested in speed brought them. These heads ( Ricardo, Big Power heads not to mention Rajo and Frontenac) where not a every day item and over the years in this country and I am talking 47 years of looking at hundreds of cars and I have only seen a hand full of cars with those heads, every other one I have seen was imported from the US and I had 3 of them from the midwest USA at one time. watch the early ford movies eg< the ford road and see how many had that stuff on them. Forget the 1990's view of the car and look at the 1920's. I am sure you will get a better picture of that time.. Ray

Now that we have all that settled, I need to ask what kind of water pump and what kind of oil should I use when I get my doctor's coupe. While I'm at it, I thought I'd share this post card.

The most common accessories we see down here are KW Master Coils, Stepney Wheels & rear truss rods on early veterans, Ruckstells and suspension additions such as Hasslers, springs etc. I remember clearly the day I saw my first Moore Auxillary Transmission, boy, what a great day. I won't bother to mention the rarity of a set of wire wheels. Having said this, maybe one in every 20 'T's here in Adelaide has these acessories.

One of the most popular early accessories is not really an accessory at all; the colonials seemed to love nickel plating all of the brass.

Genuine, period accessories are highly sought after here, that is why we keep track of eBay and people for donkeys years have always brought heaps in from the "US Land of Ford 'T' Plenty". So if anybody out there has a rear set of KW Tube Type Roadsmoothers to suit a 1911 please let me know!

PS - I have an incomplete set of rear "Duplex Cantilevers" only missing the mounting brackets to the diff. If anybody has these brackets or some that can be used for a pattern I am interested too...Dave C.

Forum too quiet for you, Steve?

Steve - We all know that water needs to be pumped from a well or dipped from the stream and oil needs to be slippery without particles of sand.
As for the Droctor's coupe - I know a doctor that once owned a Cadalac Eldorado - does that count as a Coupe?

Almost forgot - What's with the 1 cent post card...

How about a doctors car. "Especially designed for physicians."

No doctors coupe. Just a car for the ladies:

I never did "get" that "Doctor's Coupe" crap.......how did that get started?

In my opinion, preserving the cars for future generations does no good if that future generation has no interest in them. Anything that makes the driving-experience more enjoyable, keeps the cars on the road instead of covered with dust in the garage, and exposes the next generation to the joy of Model T'ing is good for the hobby.

For me, things that make them safer and require less maintenance means more opportunities and time to take my kids (ages 1 & 3) for rides.

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your reply.

Interesting discussion.

I started my last post with "Here's the dilemma..."; if you read my post carefully you'll see I'm not taking a position about whether it's "good" or "bad" to add accessories to a T. As I said in a post further up, for me it's a grey area that the owner of the T must decide.

I agree 100% with you that few cars were fitted with the accessories many people add to their cars today (Ruckstell, Warford, RM brakes, Z head for example), and that most of these accessories came in the 1920s not in the brass era.

The fact remains though that however few cars with fitted with these items "back in the day" they were available; and this does apply to brass cars (wire wheels, electric lights/starter and even front windshields and headlights on some early cars). Being that's the case I don't think it's fair to put a Ruckstell, Warford, RM brakes, Z head in the same category with a Holden transmission and disc brakes. I would never put a Holden transmission or disc brakes on my car but if someone did I don't see a crime...anyway, most of the time such things can be changed back to original.

In the Model T world I think there's room for everyone...from the purist who wants the car EXACTLY the way it came off the production line; to someone who wants to improve the car's usability and safety in today's conditions, which is the category I would suggest both you and I fit into.

A purist would critise you for adding laminated glass, blinkers, an electric stop lamp globe and two 40watt globes in your gas head lamps. Have you ruined your car? Is your car no longer a brass T? I think not.

I personally consider adding RM brakes and a Z head just an extention of what you've done; that is add to safety. Better braking and being able to better keep up with traffic adds to safety, especially when you live in a big busy cities like we do.

Constantine

Better braking l will agree too, indicators for left and right and stopping advisory... yep, keeping up with traffic....Nup, dont care to do that, trying to keep up with modern traffic does only one thing in the long term..........shorten your engines life, remember, no oil pump, no oil filter, no red light on the dash to advise you that something is wrong, we venture into modern life with our old cars, but when you try to keep up with it/them, you'll be doing something a standard ( l use the word standard ) T engine was probably not designed to do, go harder and faster in its standard form.
Then again, l will concede, rebuilding an engine in a T is a fun thing to do, we've all had to do it from time to time, a great adventure and an eye opener as to how small things really are inside !!! compared to a modern equivalent.

David.

David, I may have been the first one to use the term "keeping up with modern traffic", let me elaborate. I don't mean 'highway traffic', all I'm talking about is 'a little' better acceleration, a safe and reliable top speed of 'maybe' 45 MPH, a kevlar brake band for better stopping. Less rotating mass, no mag on the flywheel, aluminum pistons, A high compression head. A breaker-less electronic distributor, instead of coils and a timer (less maintenance) and a few other engine modifications like that. My car was 12V when I got it. Would I have converted it from 6V?, No, probably not. The generator was fried, the starter bendix was broken. I bought another one, broke the counter weight off that one too. So I bought a real 12V starter and an alternator to make the starting/charging system as reliable as I could.
Now here's the most important thing to keep in mind, this is my first Model T. If I knew what I know now (thanks to everybody here) back then, I may have gone a different way. Would I have done this to a brass era car? I don't think so. Knowing what I do now, would I have done this to a pre-26 car with wooden wheels? Hard to say. My car is a late (Feb.) 27 Tudor with wire wheels and I wanted the most reliable car I could get, to lessen the on the side of the road repairs I would have to make with my very limited repair skills. As a testimony to the way my engine/trans was built 4 years ago by Tim Foye up at "Gen III" in Mass. I have yet to twist a wrench on it (aside from oil changes and 2 band adjustments) in 4 years, until 4 days ago anyway. I was in the local Labor Day Parade, like I have been for the last 3 years but I just pushed "Lizzie" past her limits. The parade was longer (and slower) than usual. The air temperature was hotter than it had been and I fried the ignition coil (which I can buy at any auto parts store) because I've been meaning to move it move it from it's attaching point on the (very hot) manifolds to the firewall and ol Lizzie had to go home on a tow strap. A trip to AutoZone and $20 will put Lizzie back on the road again, (after I relocate the new coil).

Gotta wonder if all 4 Ford coils in an engine mounted coil box would have failed? Well, let's be fair about this, 'cause I doubt you could have gotten home on 1 cylinder, but I bet you could have gotten home on two. So....I gotta wonder if 2 Ford coils in an engine mounted coil box would have failed? My opinion (Which I admit, you didn't ask for) is "No." So how much more reliable is this modern ignition sytem? Lord, I'm beginning to sound like someone else I know.

It would be annoying if he was right, wouldn't it Hal? Actually, when it comes to T stuff I think he usually is.

Yes, he is.

Dennis, glad to see you back up and running again.
David.

This is a Model T:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1925-Ford-Model-T-open-sedan-strong-touring-car-/ 320755255430?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4aae80c886



This is NOT a Model T:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1923-Ford-T-bucket-Street-Hot-Rod-454-engine-1927 -NICE-/320754902682?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item4aae7b669a


In the above examples, one is clearly a Model T Ford. The "Title" for the other one says that it is. However, it's not. Screwing a mish-rod under an original looking moto-meter does not a Model T make.

The touring is a bit spendy, but not outrageously so. Looks like a very nice car. In the interior shot, what it that thing to the right of the brake pedal?

The other "vehicle" is just preposterous.

It's a pull cord for an accessory noise maker.

As usual, Mr. Vanderburg has hit the nail squarely on the head.

Bob

I build a lot of models of fighter planes, especially prototypes. What I've noticed is that the USAF redesignated a plane if significant changes were made to the airframe, but not things such as adding a radome, structural reinforcements, etc. One such fighter that was key in airwar against Russia during the Korean War was the North American F-86. It underwent several changes, including versions known as the YF-93 and F-95. The F-95 was so similar to it's predecessor that it was redesignated the F-86D. The YF-93 was originally called the F-86C, but due to the major changes in the fuselage and air intake was redesignated the YF-93. The same can be said for the F-5 and the F-20. Though the planes are extremely similar, the USAF did not keep the name F-5G, but rather redesignated it the F-20 (partly at Northrop's request).

I have a friend who mentioned to me several years back that he owned Model T. I asked him what type it was and he said it was a bucket/hot-rod. My next question was, "How much is still original?" He chuckled and said, "Only the radiator cap." It had a modern engine and transmission; I can't remember what size/make they were. I've never seen his car to know if it even has the original body and frame.

Though so many changes have been made to my friend's T, is it a Model T or not? That's what the title says because that's what it originally was, but like the F-86C, so much has been altered that is really is an entirely new type of car. I don't know what I'd call it and still be politically correct, but it's a far cry from what the history books call a Model T.

This isn't a Model T either, but was made from three Model Touring cars. I'm curious about the 4th body, however.

Just this morning my friend told me about a gal built like that he used to know. She had been on tv "Hee Haw" a few years before. She was riding a horse at their farm near San Juan Capistrano, and a cop drove up close from behind and blipped his siren. The horse shied and she was thrown and killed.

rdr

Just this morning my friend told me about a gal built like that he used to know. She had been on tv "Hee Haw" a few years before. She was riding a horse at their farm near San Juan Capistrano, and a cop drove up close from behind and blipped his siren. The horse shied and she was thrown and killed.

Horses are more dangerous than Model Ts.

rdr

Just this morning my friend told me about a gal built like that he used to know. She had been on tv "Hee Haw" a few years before. She was riding a horse at their farm near San Juan Capistrano, and a cop drove up close from behind and blipped his siren. The horse shied and she was thrown and killed.

Horses are more dangerous than Model Ts.

rdr

Hiccup, sorry. See, horses are three times as dangerous as Model Ts.

Just saw on Bloomberg.com that 1.4 million customers from Yuma to San Diego are without electric power until at least tomorrow. The 500KV line has a short, probably somewhere in Aridzona.

Good ol' Nuke power. The failure has shut down the San Onofre plant near here, which could feed 1.4 million customers...

We are in danger of losing power too. I need to dig our 5kw generators out of storage.

rdr

Looks like a touring on the front and back with a "centerdoor" in the middle.

Will,

Memories are great,eh?

She's only 13 years younger than your T...

Yeah, they are!

It's not a center door, if you look closely. Three distinct sections of touring bodies can be discerned in other pictures, but not this one.

My guess would be safety then driveability. Hence stop lights and turn signals are OK by me. Tried to use "period" pieces on mine but I felt it was necessary. I have lined emergency brake shoes and am considering the kit that uses them with the original foot brake pedal just for more stopping power. Also modern parts that improve the cars driveability are OK. (by me). IE: modern seals & hidden zerk fittings in grease cups. They don't show so no problem here. Can't find the photo of me sitting in the Munster Coach in front of the old Mayfair theater in Brooklyn in the 60's when the first movie came out. Met the whole cast too, in costume by the way. Except for that 4th. body mentioned earlier.

"Gotta wonder if all 4 Ford coils in an engine mounted coil box would have failed? Well, let's be fair about this, 'cause I doubt you could have gotten home on 1 cylinder, but I bet you could have gotten home on two. So....I gotta wonder if 2 Ford coils in an engine mounted coil box would have failed? My opinion (Which I admit, you didn't ask for) is "No." So how much more reliable is this modern ignition sytem? Lord, I'm beginning to sound like someone else I know.:-)"

Hal, this was more of a human failure than a parts failure. Any part will fail if subjected to bad enough conditions. The coil was mounted across the 2 front manifold studs, in other words right next to the exhaust manifold. It's been there for 4 years. I've always known that's too hot a place for it but I just never got around to relocating it to the firewall. My inaction came back and bit me.
This year's parade had more entries than usual, it was slower than usual, it was hotter than usual. I just pushed my luck one too many times.

Never trust anything without a clutch and a throttle!

This issue has been rolling around my nogg'n too...How much is too much? We have the capability to improve the car right into not being what a Model T is all about. But then do we also jeopardize the vision that Henry Ford had for the Model T, cheap, affordable transportation that was both easy to drive and repairable with just a few tools by the common man.

Well cheap they ain't anymore (gas is sort of expensive and so are some parts) nor would they be considered easy to drive by most of the population these days. But easy to repair and maintain, they still are, provided we don't over embellish them with the "new" and "improved" gadgets that are abundantly (for a price) available.

Now, I did in the interest of efficiency replace those bloody coils and timer with a distributor, but as for replacing the cutout with a voltage regulator, or the generator with an alternator, no I just can't see doing that. Why mess with something that is intrinsically simple (a spring on each end and a wheel in each corner) for something more complicated like 4 wheel juice brakes or pressure oil, what's next a computer to control the mixture? I don't see myself as a "custodian of a piece of history" I just have a really nice old car that's fun to drive and easy to repair (provided you have a manual and tons of expert advice, like on this board ). And there are way more parts available NOW than there was 30 years ago, I just wish I could have finished my car back then. I would have had all this time to enjoy driving it around and just plain having fun with it.

If anyone wants a distributor on their car, then by all means put a distributor on it. After all, it is THEIR car. BUT....... I don't buy the "more reliable" argument.

What I will buy, is coils and timer are not familiar to most people, so they are more comfortable with a distributor because that is what they are familiar with. Coils and timer are just as reliable (And one could even make an argument that they are more so) as a distributor when the system is properly set up. Some folks just won't go to the trouble to set them up properly.

To each his own, but for me, there are two things that really set the Model T apart from most other cars: The transmission and the ignition system. It just seems like those are two of the first things to get 'upgraded.' Again, this is just me....... My opinion.....and worth exactly what you paid for it.......You put a distributor and a Warford in a Model T and you might as well have a Model A.

I have to agree with Hal Davis. There are three major features about the Model T that set it apart from all other antique cars. Two are the ignition and transmission. Now, I don't blame anybody for making changes to their own car—Heaven knows I've made some significant changes to mine (and some folks might wonder whether my addition of a 12-volt electrical system and starter to a brass car might be illegal in some states).

I doubt there's one among us who doesn't appreciate antique cars in original condition, but we're not talking Moon Raceabouts, Thomas Flyers, Pierce Great Arrows, or even Tuckers, here. The third unique thing about the Model T Ford is its almost unsurpassed plurality. There are so darn many Tin Lizzies around, it pretty much doesn't matter if a bunch of them get modified, because there'll never be a shortage of originals.

Bob

The two things that set the T apart from other cars were obsolete by 1908.

rdr

My old truck will never be all origional because a lot of the wood has been replaced when it was rebuilt. I've tried to keep it as origional as I can. As soon as I find a decent kerosene tail lamp I'm going to put the oil lamps back on and hide the battery. It does have a starter and I'm glad. When I drive on the highway I use my removable quick change LED flashing light and SMV sign. I want to make it look like a non starter truck just because I happen to like oil lamps. If the next person to own it doesn't like the bolt on item's they can remove them.


I agree with all of you. Not to say I would do or not do what you have done but in the fact that you have stated what you think is right for your Model T. It's your car. Life is short. Enjoy the hobby and YOUR car.

"The two things that set the T apart from other cars were obsolete by 1908."

Which is what is so unique about it. Perhaps "Unique" is not the right word, but you know what I mean. Practically everything on our antique cars is obsolete, but that doesn't mean I want to jack it up and run a 2012 Taurus underneath it. Its obsolescence is the novelty of owning an antique car. The fact that Henry stuck to those two obsolete features for 19 years is what makes the Model T that much more special than other antique cars.

“Lizzie” is back on the road. Fried coil, just like I thought. Took the old coil to the AutoZone where I used to work. Jerry (behind the counter) said “Don’t tell me, let me guess”. I said “Yup, 84 year old Ford with breaker-less electronic ignition, got any ideas?” He said, “what kind of distributor”. I said, “Aftermarket, looks like an ol Bosch 049, like a VW Beetle had”. He brought out a coil for a 12V “Beetle”, perfect match. $27. bucks and change but I had $20. on my AutoZone card from prior purchases, $7. and change out the door.
Took it home, plugged it in, presto! Lizzie started right up. (Try that with a stock one).
Relocated the coil off the manifolds, should run at least another 4 years without an adjustment.

I'm in agreement with Hal and Bob on the uniqueness of the T. By the time my car was manufactured in March, 1927, the magneto and coils were out of date. So were the brakes, the steering, the body style - those of you that have been into T's for many years longer than I could list a whole lot more, I'm sure.

Many of the people that I've taken for a ride in the T was their first time in a car that pre-dates the 1960s! The Model T had such a huge impact on getting middle-class America on the road and it's uniqueness only adds to the conversation. When I told my principal at work that Ford kept the magneto in the car as safeguard in case the battery failed, his reply was, "wow, I wish we had that failsafe in today's modern cars."

Dennis, I can take the 4 coils out of the box in my 23, swap them with the 4 coils on the engine of my 26, and still start each with 2 pulls. I enjoy starting the car up for folks, pulling one coil and have it still run, although rough, and handing them the coil.
I have to admit, both cars have Ruckstells, Z-heads, and Rocky mountain brakes.

Noel,

It will run on one but I'm sure it's not good for it. At car shows, I will hold the lower point contact down and let it run on three, then two, then one. This is at idle, so it sometimes goes dead after a few revolutions.........But.........Let go of all of them and it will usually start back up. I never thought of pulling a coil out while it was running. I might try that.

Noel, this is my first (and only) Model T. The only 'extra' parts I have, is the worn out stuff I have replaced. To me, my Model T is just a neat old car to drive around in. The bumpers on it were 'aftermarket' (I'm told). It probably had a vaporizer carb on it, somebody replaced mine with an NH. The 2 inside rear view mirrors (one with a gold tint on it) were not 'original' (guess somebody got tired of looking at high beams in their mirror long ago?). I'm sure it didn't come off the show room floor with a MotoMeter on the radiator cap? The Harley Davidson side view mirrors I adapted to fit, were a must considering how much I drive it and they don't look 'too' out of place. The worn out nickel on the radiator shroud is painted over with a spray can and so are the bumpers. The 50+ year old "Royak Maroon" paint job is 'close' but not show room 'correct'. The only people who can tell that the engine has been modified are other Model T owners.
It looks like a Model T, it drives like a Model T, it sounds like a Model T, it won't stop like a Model T, even with the kevlar brake band. As far as I (and almost everybody else I meet) are concerned, It's a Model T.

For me, it's just an 84 year old Used Car with some 30's, 50's and 21st century 'gadgets' on it. For those of you who want an absolutely 'stock' Model T, more power to you but I'll bet mine is just as much fun to drive, (and a little easier to maintain), as your's is.

David,

Keeping up with modern traffic is not important to me either.

I wrote that a Z head helps:

"...being able to better keep up with traffic [which] adds to safety"

A Fordor with 2 or 3 passangers inside that cannot do 60km/h on the freeway, is asking for trouble; it's also illegal in VIC to do less than 60km/h on a freeway. My point was that a Z head that adds around 30% power/torque may well allow the same car do such a speed, thus increase safety.

You're right that if one did try to keep up with modern traffic you'd shorten the life of you're engine.

You don't have a Z head on your lovely 13 roadster, but don't you have a "Claytons" Z head, ie. domed pistons?

For those in the USA, "Clayton's" in our English means:

"The Z head you have when you're not having a Z head"

Something essentially the same but going by a different name.

Dennis,

You have a great car, and IMHO it's a real Model T.

If someone starts to hassle you about your car being modified or a hotrod, just ask them if their engine still runs cast iron pistons. If they say no, then ask them which hotrod club they're a member of!

Claytons Z head......
are you kidding me ?
alumin pistons = Claytons Z head...really ?

If there's every an awkward silence in the room just start this conversation again!
Dad wants to go distributor. I was given one when I was starting Daub and in the box it sits. I've always told him he was more than welcome to anything I have as he has done so much for me. I just go quiet when he talks about using it. No comment dad. I want HIM to be happy and safe. I admit my body still tenses as I fear it's the beginning of his slide.
I did have a lot to say when Pawn Stars was on and some dude shows up with a Woody with a Chevy engine. While they were going on and on about how it's not original but still such a rare thing to see, I was on my feet yelling back you're a bunch of idiots! I just didn't like it. Maybe that's why I don't own a tv anymore?
If you're not original you have your reasons. I just believe in being honest. It is what it is.

Constantine, this is an open ended subject. I agree with the 'purists', however. If you modify one thing, the likelihood you are going to have to modify something else (because of the 1st modification), is very high. It's an individual decision and to each his own. Preserving 'history' exactly as it was, is important.
When I first bought my car, my intention was to put a Flathead V8 in it. It didn't take me any time at all to realize that I was going to have to 'modify' the entire running gear, maybe even replace the frame, in order to do that. So, to get back to the title of this subject,"When is a Model T not a Model T, a new can of worms", that's my idea of a "can of worms", not just a small 'modernization' here and there. If T owners weren't 'modifying' their cars to suit their liking from the very beginning, their wouldn't have been such a vast selection of 'accessories' for them.

100% right Trish. I saw that episode. It wasn't a "T" anymore, beautiful as it was, it was a "Resto-Mod". I resisted that temptation. However...., the distributor modification was around almost as long as T's have been. Somebody must have figured out it would sell, or it wouldn't have been available? I can't too excited about making that modification. My car still has a Model T engine in it, even though the only 'original' Ford parts in it are the block and the crankshaft. That's where I draw the line on when is it, (or is it not), a Model T but that's just me. Many Model T's were sold as frame and running gear only, Is it 'not' a Model T if it has an an 'aftermarket' or hand made body on it?

Again, I will say, if you change the soul/heart of the car, to something completely different (302, 305, 427 any number combination you can think of), it's not a Model T.


I believe Dennis called this a "Chinese gang bang". This will prove beyond all doubt when something ceases to be what it was originally. Then you will understand that distributors and alternators don't really matter....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6PNU63mqc&feature=related

Now that's funny. Lots of dough to spend on a joke.

Hey Erik, maybe that Coupe should be called a Women's Coupe!

reading thru these postings, one could imagine a pi$*ing competition in the car park out the back.
The bottom line is, there are 3 kinds of T's, original, mostly original and partly original and l guess there is a 4 th, some scatterings of original... the depth of your pockets and your end requirement will see you in the one you need to be in.
If you go back to the original thought of why and what these cars were built like and for, cheap motoring for the masses, buy one, start one and drive one, you'll only need to start adding accessories when you do one of two things, go faster or forget that the stopping distances are significantly longer than that of a modern, which brings the point of the driver, out driving the cars capability.
This discussion can so easily turn into a nasty argument over absolutely nothing, if its on the road and your happy with it, thats all that matters.

David.

William, If I remember correctly, "Chinese Gang Bang" is what I called that diesel Model A the last time a video of it was posted here. It looks like the end result of a bad LSD trip. As far as I'm concerned, (other's have the right to disagree), my car is still a Model T, in almost every respect.
I've made no bones about the fact in the 4 years I've been posting here, that I'm a "Hot Rodder" and I have been since I was 15 (51 years ago next month). "Lizzie is my first "antique car". She was destined to be an early 50's era 'Hot Rod' when I bought her. It's not in my nature to leave anything mechanical "as is".
"Lizzie" will be sharing the garage with my latest aquisiton in about a week. I think I safely can say that "Lizzie" will be free from any further 'modification'.

A professionally built 1950 Rambler American. Chopped top, 350 Corvette enging and trans, remote operated doors, leather interior, BMW seats, digital dash board, Camaro front sub frame, Wildwood power disc brakes, Ford 9" rear end and much more. It's what I will call being to have my slow ol Model T in 'reasonably' original shape and being able to burn rubber for blocks (literally), too.

i thought the diesel car was a studebaker they found as a body in a field? That was what i had read somewhere anyway.

I had incorrectly identified it as a Model A in another post. It's actually a 1928 Dodge 4 door Sedan.

I think we're finally agreeing...

In my first post way up above on this topic I wrote:

"Main thing is that YOU are happy with the way your car is...if others don't agree that's their problem."

Dennis wrote:
"It's an individual decision and to each his own."

David wrote:
"if its on the road and your happy with it, thats all that matters."

Trish wrote:
"If you're not original you have your reasons."

David is correct, the question "When is a Model T not a Model T" being like a "pi$*ing competition"; is a pointless question that can only lead to unpleasantness.

80% or 90% or more of Ts today are fitted with alloy pistons. That being the case together with the fact that Ts were never fitted alloy pistons means that very few cars today are "correct" if you want to be anal retentive about it. Alloy pistons do change the way the engine runs and the torque curve so they do make a difference. What's my point? Let those without modification among you cast the first stone.

David, was playing devil's advocate by saying DOMED pistons are a Claytons Z head...such a stupid argument is indicative of the whole 'original' debate IMHO. Plus I'm jealous I didn't get the correct iron low head on my 1913 engine...you wouldn't want to swap one of yours for a alloy low head with no Ford script would you???

NO.

What if I throw in a set of used Champion X plugs so that your correct 1913 iron low head contains plugs with the correct style electrodes?

Ditto.

I have a 1914 low head on my 22. Whoops, scratch up another modification for me. My neighbor was using it for a door stop, when I expressed an interest in it he gave it to me.



Pretty color too, sets the grey off nicely I painted the engine with.

Martin,

You will be casting any stones at anyone that's for sure...around here though you might be on the receiving end.

How do you know it's a 1914?

Want to swap it?

sorry, forgot one word, meant to say:

You will NOT be casting any stones at anyone that's for sure...

Ah...missed your "ditto"

Have plenty of X plugs, originals not the now made repro's....but thanks anyway.

I have been absent for a bit, and was in a hurry when I posted early on.

I remember meeting an antique car fellow almost forty years ago. He was searching for nitro-cellulose lacquer so his car could be correct right down to the paint. (It was a GM car). The problem was, he had chrome plated everything that was supposed to be nickel because he didn't want to have to polish it. The interior was done incorrectly because he couldn't find the right material. Common rubber mat where the gray linoleum was supposed to be. The tires were, of course, what was available in the early '70s. Need I go on?
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck. It is a duck. I also had a discussion with an ornithologist about blue jays. I was pointing one out to my then four year old son. I knew the difference (it was a Scrub Jay, but my four year old wasn't quite to the stage to note the differences), so I said "is it blue?" "Yes." "Is it a Jay?" "Yes" "Then it is a blue, Jay." (No wonder my son turned out the way he did.)
I have had this discussion within the Horseless Carriage Club. I don't want to argue percentages. I do like most of the accessories on my coupe, and my speedsters. I do want to come up with a T with no accessories or updates whatsoever.
I am not going to make my own Japan Black enamel.
Although, I have thought about it.
I just don't like seeing good people getting all tweaked over something as silly as drawing a line that cannot be drawn.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

Bingo! Wayne. I put my car in one Model T judging contest when I first bought it. It still had the original engine in it and I thought it was all original? I found out a lot more about what it wasn't, than what it was. My car could be restored to bone stock original. It would be a frame-up job I'm just not interested in getting into. It's just fine for me, as 'un-original' as it is.

Constantine, l re read your posting above and think you may have mistakenly placed my name for a comment that you made about domed pistons and Z heads, maybe you should re read your many postings....just a thought., you are aware that this was a tongue in cheek posting by Ray from the outset aren't you!

David.

How many of us would be alive and mobile today if it weren't for modifications? My appendix came out in 1962.

rdr

Ok, an appendix was taken out. What did you put in in it's place?

Distributor, or water pump?

"How many of us would be alive and mobile today if it weren't for modifications? My appendix came out in 1962."

Sents in my arteries, steel screws holding my bones together and false teeth.

I thought this had been a very civil discussion among intelligent people each stating their positions and their reasoning thereof. I've seen no namecallling etc. I didn't know anyone was getting all tweaked.

Semi-intelligent, Hal, semi-intelligent - - and semi-insane.

"It's a fine line between hobby and insanity."

Just one guys opinion, I think era correct speed parts don't hurt the original "vibe" of a T. And if you're talking about safety upgrades, well, that's just a smart choice considering todays traffic. Personally, i think that T feel goes away just about the same time we start talkin smallblock chevies and aftermarket chassis... Then again, this IS my first day.

Hal,

There's been no name calling... so far.

I stand by my belief: if the integrity of the car remains Model T, then it's a Model T.

The images I posted on September 8th quantify my belief.

If you own it, you can call it anything you want. But to me, a car that has the word "Ford" on it, and nothing else Ford related, does not make that car a Ford.

Here's an important safety modification --- from the internets....

With some drivers that I've known that was called a Barff bag, like in an airpane. The air bag looks like a good safety feature for a T.

Bob

Constantine,

That neighbor I mentioned (Ed Tate) that gave me the head told me he bought it from a guy at Hersey who said it was a 1914. He originally intended to use it on his 21 touring, but never got around to it, so he used it as a door stop. I suppose the year does't really matter much, it's a cast iron low head, and its still a pretty green too.

David,

I thought your roadster does have domed pistons...if not, sorry.

For the record, I think domed pistons are not a bad idea as you get to keep the engine looking original yet get a higher compression. I've heard that clearance can be an issue though if the block/head have been milled.

I didn't have a go at Ray, I agree with most of what he wrote above. Maybe I misunderstood what he was trying to say, but he seemed to be putting Model-T era accessories such as RM brakes and hi-comp heads in the same pile as disc brakes...that's where I disagreed with him. He has a great car and I agree that the changes made to his car are only common sense.

Constantine,

This I think is why it's a 1914 low head

Martin,

Thanks for that.

Didn't know they dated low heads.

From memory,a few years ago this subject had a very informative discussion for this subject on "numbers cast into low heads",l believe it was an open result on whether they were cast dates or just numbers relating to something else entirely, although your 14 casting fits the date theory well,many other original 1913's have had and mine is included on 2 x 13 low heads, numbers which show xx23 or x21 or the like., so l guess this discussion will again come.

David.

Those date code casting numbers are in the format of Month Day. Your head was cast on July 14 of an unknown year between 1913 - 1917.

Please forgive me for I have aparently sinned.
I have used Kevlar band material in my original,unmolested, up to now, roadster. I will not sleep tonight!
My 4 original style coils have not been touched for 6 years, I use 20w-50 oil, I use the same oil in the diff that I use in my Grey Ferguson tractor transmission and have done so since I got her 6 years ago without any problems and many many miles driven. My 6v battery and electics are working just fine. Traffic is no problem for her, and she will lift up her skirt and run at 55mph. No need to though, if I want a racer I will get one that was built as a racer.
I love the T the way she was designed so much, I am building up a '26 to as close to original as I can with what is available. If I want a modern car, I would not be buggering around with Model T's, or trying to make it one.

Peter

My little focus wagon has 3 airbags in it when I sit in it.


:>)
I will have to make me 1 of those for the cruise in friday night.

Jumping in here a little late; I have to say that I don't know where to draw "the line" on when a T isn't a T, but I know one thing for sure, a T-bucket is NOT a T. And I am offended that we even call it a "T" bucket.

Mack, now that is funny! Dave

Hi again, I have been going through my photos from Greenfield Village car days over the years and I saw a photo of a as found mid 1920's "T" two young guys driving it in the parade with a pinto engine and a manual gearbox in it, how do we rate this bastardization of a nice car, is it still a "T" by some members standards or is it now a hot rod that sneaks in under the rope.... Ray

A T with a Pinto engine is no hotrod. It's a T with a modern engine, and it's probably intended to do the same job as the original. Did it have T tires and wheels, or modern?

Tires are a major separator between old and modern. In order to accommodate all kinds of cars, Greatrace rules are basic, and state that tires must be within 1/2 inch of original. That means no balloon tires on a pre-'25 T.

OTOH, they allow safety enhancements like four wheel drum brakes.

rdr

Agreed, Rick. A buddy of mine owns a 36 Chevy. On the outside to the average viewer, it looks bone-stock. Under the hood he sports a 1990s, Buick V6 and it has a few other modern amenities you can't see at first glance, safety enhancements etc. It runs good and doesn't sound like a hot rod but it is fun to drive. I'm ok with that level of modification to antique iron.

But not much more.

W.W.H.S. (What would Henry say)

But i like old technology. Putting a modern engine in a car makes it too modern. i am the kind of person who would fit trembler coils to my modern car

T with a Pinto engine? Intersting mix; the car that made Ford into a well respected giant mixed with the car that put a huge dent in Ford's credibility.