Types of demountable rims?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Types of demountable rims?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 01:28 am:

Hi, correct me if I'm wrong, but from my reading, up until 1924, there were 6 different manufacturers of early demountable rims.
Kelsey, Hayes, Firestone, Motor wheel, Cleveland and Ford. They were all different to each other.
Since then, they were much the same?
I'm looking to buy new demountable rims and wonder which manufacturer made the ones on my car.
They have 4 slots in each rim with small L shaped brackets that hold them to the fellow. I think they are Kelsey, but cant be sure. Can someone put me straight here please?
Thanks,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 02:38 am:

Mine are like this.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 03:08 am:

Hello Rob,

Here is a link to a previous discussion. I have the same rims that you have, on our Fordor. I believe that the wheels are Kelsey and that type of rim is a Ford Rim. Best regards, John

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/135230.html

This is a photo of the stamping on the inside of one of my wheels.



Ford Rim fourth from top


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 06:15 am:

Rob,

Most Australian Ts had rims with loose lugs of the square type shown as 2846-B and these fitted rims made by Kelsey and Hayes and probably others.

The Kelsey rims have a solid ledge around the rim and a flat base as shown at the top of John's posting. The Hayes rims have a groove rolled into the rim like the Ford rim shown at 3rd from the top. Thes have slots cut in the rolled bead to accept the loose lug. This slot also allows water into the rim and these are consequently usually well rusted.

Both are designed to have the rolled or solid ledge bind on the outside of the wheel felloe to hold it in place. I much prefer the Kelsey type as they are usually less rusted and the section of rim where the lug engages is much more easily built up/repaired if needed.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 08:54 am:

Rob,

I believe you are really interested in what Ford of Canada used rather than what Ford USA used for demountable wheels. If they are going on one of your Australian cars that had the chassis imported from Canada I think the following may be of some help.

Just as Ford USA moved a plant into Canada just across from Detroit, so did many other companies. One of those was Kelsey (ref: page 100 of Robert’s “In the Shadow of Detroit” ). Note the Aug 5, 1928 USA [not Canada but USA] Price List of Parts has both the removable and fixed lug style rims listed for both the clincher and the balloon tires. But the Jan 1, 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts “ONLY” shows a single rim with the removable lug style for the clincher and another removable lug style one for the balloon tire rim. The rim had a “b” with it –which would indicate a previous version but the “b” number was listed to fit/replace the 1919-1924 clincher rim. Based on that I would think Ford of Canada only used the demountable rims that had the removable lugs from 1919 to the end of 1924 production. (Note evidently for 1925 when the USA went to one style rim and wheel made by several different companies Ford of Canada also probably went to that style – i.e. fixed lug Hayes style).

However for Australia there are a lot of other factors. I.e. the advertisements from dealers showing Fords with Hayes wire wheels etc. I do NOT know where they got those wheels – Canada? USA? Other? So it may have been possible or perhaps even common to have a fixed lug Hayes style demountable wheel on an Australian sold car. If anyone has additional information concerning that please let us know.

And of course many folks imported USA parts over the years.

I also think but have not had much proof that the Hayes style rim will function on the Kelsey style felloe. I’m still trying to gather data on that one – if folks have been successfully running the fixed lug Hayes rim on the Kelsey style rim for years – please let us know. Or if it you tried it and it didn’t work let us know. Ford specifically said “Don’t do that” in the service bulletins.

Note the fixed lug Hayes style wheel and rim was made by several manufactures who supplied Ford and possibly even made by Ford Motor Company. I’m still not sure if the Ford wheel and rim that is mentioned was produced by Ford or just for Ford by Cleveland and Firestone.

Finally – be aware that the USA Fords also had some regions of the country that had a similar looking loose lug rim and wheel but that it used a lug around the valve stem to keep the wheel from rotating. Those would not be prevented from rotating if they were mounted on the Kelsey felloe.

I’m 99% sure there is someone down there reproducing the rims. I saw it recently in another posting.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 09:04 am:

Rob,

There were two "Ford" rims issued in 22, and in 23 which use the lugs you picture. However, the Kelsey loose lug uses an L shaped brackets that at first glance appears the same - it is not. The Kelsy "L shaped bracket," or, "lug" is a bit smaller and accepts a square shoulder nut. The Ford loose lug takes the standard tapered lug nut.

Furthermore - the Kelsey loose lug rim is prevented from spinning on the wheel by use of a spike (if you will) that comes through a hole in the felloe. The loose lug Ford rim uses a protusion around the valve stem that mated with a sort of "cup" in the wheel felloe, preventing it from spinning.

I sent you a note off line offering my little still-in-progress research paper that Hap has been assisting me with. I'd be happy to send it to you.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Monday, October 03, 2011 - 04:17 pm:

Thank you gents.
You are a wealth of knowledge.
Steve, Thank you for your well written and timely paper. I am absorbing what it has to tell me right now.
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 01:34 am:

While I was in the USA I saw another different lug used on early Hayes felloes and rims. The owner claims they were the first type available. These are not one off's, the spokes are tear drop in shape like early non demountable wheels and the owner has found extra lugs which he purchased for spares.

earlyhayes01
earlyhayes02

Does anyone have this type ofr know of or anything about this style??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 09:11 am:

Hap,

In my experience with Ts in Australia, we had loose lug felloes until 1925, when the fixed lug type were fitted.

Hayes rims with the groove rolled in the rim and the other types with the solid band around the rim, are all interchangeable on loose lug felloes. They all have a bridging piece which goes over the bolt nearest the valve to stop the rim spinning on the felloe if the lugs get loose. These are all designed to jam tighly on the outside edge of the felloe, and it is this tension which allows the driving forces to be transmitted to ground.

The fixed lug rims are designed to jam on the inside edge of the felloe and there is a small gap between the lug and the felloe when the wheel nut is done up. These felloes are slightly smaller in diameter than the loose lug type and there is also a small gap between the rim and the outside of the felloe.

The fixed lug rims will fit onto the loose lug type felloes, with one exception. The foot on the Hayes fixed lug rim will not allow the rim to go onto the loose lug type felloe, unless a relief is hammered into the felloe. We have done this on Anthony's 24 10cwt lorry to allow the fitment of the wider rims from a C&%$y and 4.40 x 23" tyres.

I am not sure if intermixing fixed lug rims onto loose lug felloes results in the rims binding correctly to transmit the drive. It may be that they do not, and all the driving forces are transmitted through the four bolts and lugs. This may be what the factory was concerned about when warning not to mix rims/wheels.

There is a manufacturer of 23" BE rims in Queensland. He also does the fixed lug ones too. But I cannot fathom why he goes to so much effort to make a really good rim and then goes and mills the lugs with a radius against the rim which clearly identifies it as a reproduction!

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Pakeman on Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - 09:09 pm:

Hi Allan and others
we are the manufacturers of the rims in Australia that you mention. The reason for supplying our rims with machined lugs is to ensure correct fitment. Our method of manufacturer, results in a slightly rounded profile. With such small demand in Australia it would be far too costly to have dies made to stamp lugs which would closely resemble the original, and that would "marry" with the profile of our rims. Appreciate your comment about the effort that we go to to make a good rim, thanks. Dick and Elise


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 06:36 am:

Hap

Two of our club members have run for quite a long time with Hayes rims on Kelsay felloes. One gentleman even sent his wheels out for respoking and didn' realize he had mixed felloes/rims until it was pointed out to him. Had been that way for years and he has driven his car on a good number of local multi day tours.

My dad's car was the same way and had 25+ years driving mixed rim/felloe combination. When I respoked his wheels a few years ago, we found 2 good used Hayes felloes and made all 4 wheels match all 4 rims.

best regards


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 08:35 am:

Hap,

I wonder if felloes/wheels made by different manufacturers for US cars are not all interchangeable if fixed lug rims are involved.

We had fixed lug type wheels on our 25 model year cars. Prior to this, our Canadian sourced cars had loose lug rims/wheels, the lugs being the square type shown in Rob's post as 2846-B.

In trying to find wood wheel felloes which I could use to re-build Hayes wire wheels, I accumulated felloes from both loose lug and fixed lug wheels. This led to the observation that the loose lug felloes with the slot depressed into them to accept the lug, were in fact slightly larger in diameter than the fixed lug wheels without the depressed slots. This also explained why the wooden spokes sold by the vendors for the US market were not long enough for us to use.

A second difference also became evident when the cross section of the felloes was compared. Felloes to accept the fixed lug rims like US cars use had a wider lip on the inside of the felloe.
When the rim is bolted to these, it binds on that wider inside lip. There is space between the lug and the outside face of the felloe and there is a gap between the rim and the felloe on the outside.

On our loose lug rims, the rim binds on the outer lip of the felloe. There is no gap. The lip on the inside edge of the felloe is the same width as the outside lip.

Scott's comments above would seem to suggest that fixed lug rims are interchangeable on US cars on wheels from different manufacturers. Likewise, loose lug rims from different manufacturers are interchangeable on our loose lug felloes.

However, the picture is blurred when trying to mix fixed lug rims and loose lug type wheels on our cars. Here the Hayes brand fixed lug rims will not fit because the foot on the rim will not go over the slightly larger diameter of the loose lug felloe. Other brand rims without the foot on the lug will fit.

My original Hayes wire wheels on my 1912 van have a slight recess in the outer edge of the felloe to allow the rim foot to clear the felloe when the rim is bolted on. We duplicated this recess to allow son Anthony to run wider Hayes rims from a Chev and 4.40 x 23" tyres on his 1924 10cwt Lorry which has loose lug type wheels.

This experimentation led to my observation about the different way the rims mounted on the different felloes ie. the fixed lug types binding on the wider innner edge of their felloes and the loose lug types binding on the outer edge.

My 1912 van has a mixture of fixed lug rims on its Hayes wire wheels. 3 are Hayes, two are Kelsey and a second spare is some other brand I have been unable to identify. A fortnight ago I bought two of the best Hayes rims I have ever seen, so that will give me a matching set of 5 after 16 years! Fixed lug rims are much scarcer in Australia, being used for just one year.

I hope this is of interest.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Thursday, October 06, 2011 - 09:43 pm:

All,

Thank you so much for the inputs and comments. Lots for me to sort through and think about. I am confident that for 1925 Ford USA required all the outside suppliers to produce the Hayes style wheel and rim with the fixed lugs. So Kelsey would have been producing that style of Ford in the USA and it was interchangeable with all the other makers (Cleveland, Firestone, Hayes, Ford (again -- Ford may have just contracted with Cleveland and Firestone?) Ref: Mar 7, 1924 letter at:http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels under wheels.

And if others have experience of running the fixed lug Hayes style rims on the lose lug felloes -- please let us know what you discovered. And while the Firestone and Cleveland brand that used the lug around the valve stem to keep the rim from slipping would not work on a fixed lug rear felloe (i.e. the valve stem would be cut) the comment above about the Kelsey having the notched lug that went over the lug bolt -- should prevent it from rotating.

It sure makes the Ford wire wheels look easier to deal with. Basically one style for the T -- as opposed to the numerous styles of demountable rims for the T.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 04:33 am:

There appears to be differences in the Canadian demountable wheels and those in the USA. Whatever the brand and design some fit well enough that they can work even if they are not the ones made for each other originally.

Just looking at them design wise, I would have thought that whatever the make/type that originally the manufacturer would have made them so there was contact on the back and front flange at the same time. Why put a flange on the rim if the object is for it not to touch,

The tolorances don't need to be great but some contact around most of the wheel front and back would be desirable.

The wheels I have on the Kamper (Hayes) touch on the back and front pretty equally. If you look at the gap between both of them its not possible to put a piece of paper in any gap for more than a few inches in a few points around the wheel. To have the load all on the front or back of the felloe only seems a bit odd.

I have the remains of some Hayes wire wheels and there are 3 different ones (only what I have maybe there is more?) If you look at the design it appears that it was changed to strengthen or cheapen the manufacturer of them. The ones with both a flange front and back on the felloe have a smaller section than the one with only a flange on the back. The bigger flange probaly made it as strong as the double ones and would have been cheaper to make.

sf-a
sf-b
sf-c

On our roads today with most people only doing small milages occasionally then even a mis match will probaly work Ok, Obviously a proper matching set would be best and some combinations are so bad they should be changed but as long as its possible to clamp the wheel up against a flange and there is also an added device to prevent the rim from slipping around the felloe so that driving and breaking forces are not relying on just friction from contact with a flange or flanges then the wheels will probably give good service.

Allan, remember the guy who we helped in Windsor? the bearing surfaces for the lug on his rim and felloe was so badly worn that the rim couldn't be tightened up as the lug bottomed out on the felloe face before the rim could have pressure applied to the flanges. Its poor worn out parts that are the ones which are unsafe.
Keep looking for good matching components even if it does take 16 years is the way to go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Friday, October 07, 2011 - 06:15 pm:

Peter,
I have since done a permanent fix for the lugs and rims on that car. They were Kelsey type and these are the easiest to rebuild and refit.

Your photos of the Hayes felloes are interesting. The top one looks like a 21" wheel. These have straight sided rims and are Hayes specific for fitment I believe. I once bought a pair of these with old tyres fitted. The Ford rim bolted to one had gone on over the outer edge of the felloe and the only way to get it off was to cut the tyre off first

The second photo is like my 23" hayes on my 1912 van. You can just see the relief where the lug goes over the outside edge of the felloe. One of my back wheels has had a loose rim on it at some time and the inner edge of the felloe is worn as a result. Hence the rim bolts up with the lugs tight on the outside face of the felloe. Driving forces are thus on the four lug bolts on that wheel.

The third photo looks just like a 21" Ford felloe. This type does rely on the rim binding only on the inner edge of the felloe. You may be correct about our Canadian loose lug rims binding on both sides of the felloe. I will check my cars. With the fixed lug types there was a photo on a previous thread showing a piece of card inserted between the felloe and the rim to illustrate the gap between them. I need to check my brother-in -law's 25 T.

It is amazing what there is to learn about our cars. I get more and more careful about stating what is fact any more, except there is no need for FLAPS in clincher tyres!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes-Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 07:21 pm:

Looking above at Peter's three photos. The bottom photo is of a felloe where the outer side of the felloe does not have a flange.
How important is it that there be a flange on the outer part of the felloe, or is it more important that the rim fit on the inner flanged part of the felloe?

I have wheels that have a flange and some that do not. Trying to decide which are the better wheels. Or with all else being equal, is there really any difference?

thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 08:16 pm:

Dave,

The lower photo posted again below is of one of the major types that Hayes produced.



You did NOT state or I missed it (that happens) what style of rim you are planning to put on the felloe. Below assumes you are talking 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher for both felloe and rims.

That is also the style of felloe that is currently being reproduced. It was designed to work with the Hayes 2845B and also the later Ford 2845B both of which have the fixed lugs. Starting around Mar 7, 1924 all the wheel manufactures supplying Ford (Cleveland, Firestone, Hayes, Ford (again -- Ford may have just contracted with Cleveland and Firestone?)) produced wheels and rims that worked with the 2845B style fixed lug rims. Ref: Mar 7, 1924 letter at:http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels under wheels.

So if you are using a fixed lug 2845B style rim -- it should work great with that felloe. That assumes you have rims and felloes that original came on a Ford and that are both the 30 x 3 1/2 clincher or both the 21 inch split rim balloon style (which also look the same felloe wise but of course is smaller diameter). It also assumes that that flange on the inside of the felloe has not been distorted by running or moving the car around so much that the flange has been distorted or that a rim was tightened down so much on it that it compressed the flange too much etc. I.e. when you tighten the fixed lug rim to the flange it should tighten up before the lugs compress against the side of the felloe. For sure you do not want a gap on the inside flange.

I do NOT think the felloe shown without a flange on both the inside and outside would work well for a Kelsey lose lug rim. From other postings people have been running the fixed lug 2845B Hayes and 2845B Ford style fixed lug rims on Kelsey wheels without experiencing problems (so far). Note the Ford service bulletin specifically says do not do that but it also says you should not put the Hayes style rim on the Kelsey style wheel.

Note for all the wheels – you want the majority of the weight of the car transferred to the rim via the flange on the felloe contacting the rim.. The fixed lugs also take some of the weight – but the majority of the weight should be carried by the inside flange for the fixed lug. For the Kelsey wheels the inside and outside flanges should both be carrying the car’s weight. Some of the other wheels – I’m still trying to figure out how they work. But as Peter pointed out the inside flange should always be carrying weight or be snug against the rim.

Remember also that many other makes also used similar looking rims that may or may not work. Sometimes with minor modification they will work – i.e. the Hayes Chevy clincher rim will work on a T by relocating the valve stem hole to match the T felloe valve stem hole. Sometimes they just won’t be safe – i.e. if they areonly supporting the weight of the car on the fixed lugs and not on the inside flange – I think they are unsafe. I do not have any proof of that. And I would welcome evidence to confirm I guessed correctly or evidence that I guessed incorrectly and need to update my theory.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 05:47 am:

Dave,
The felloe with no flange on the outside is found only on the 1926-7 Ts using the fixed lug split rims of 21" diameter and baloon tyres, in Australia that is. I have never seen a 23" felloe like this which takes a clincher rim. There were C***y 23" straight sided tyre on split rims for a year or two and they may have had this type of felloe.

The plot thickens!

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 11:32 am:

Allan,

1. Thanks so much for posting – I’m always trying to gain a better understanding (or become more confused in some cases) concerning the Canadian supplied cars and chassis to Australia and other locations.

2. In Dave’s case we are assuming he is talking about USA produced felloes and rims. He is located in Wisconsin USA so it is possibly his car is far enough north that a Canadian rim or felloe could have been used as a replacement some time in the past. But we are assuming (and that can cause problems sometimes) that he is discussing USA rims and wheels/felloes.

2.a. I did a quick check of my junk wheel collection and found that 3 of the demountable wheels that are the 30 by 3 1/2 clincher demountable with the single flange on the inside, NO female lug for a Cleveland or Firestone rim, and have the indents (some folks say slots) on the outer flange for the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lugs to fit into. Also I have 4 others like that in much better shape on a car again with the Hayes style rims. So while you may not have seen many of those in Australia, I believe they are fairly common in the USA. Others with additional samples please confirm or correct that “guess” of mine. Note, I did not see any 1926-27 junk wheels with two flanges – only the single flange on the inner side of the felloe. But see the comments on Canadian wheels & rims further down.

Photo below of those three wheels:



2.b. Note, I have NOT included photos showing the single inner flange and no flange on the outside of the felloe when the wheel is mounted. The reason?

2.b.1. Unless you can see the valve stem hole to confirm it does NOT have a female lug for the Firestone produced Ford 2845D (and I’m 99 % sure that both Cleveland and Firestone produced those wheels and rims under contract to Ford) – they also only had a single flange on the inner side of the felloe. Below are the photos Royce provided (Thanks Royce!).





2.b.2. And below is a photo of Steve Shelton’s felloes (thanksSteve!). The top felloe shows the female lug around the valve stem that the 2845D rim fits into and prevents the rim with the loose lugs (similar to Kelsey loose lugs but different and uses the flanged lug nut rather than the Kelsey flat lug nut). The second felloe next to the Firestone type does NOT have the female lug and does NOT have the outer flange. It is the same style felloe that takes the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lug rims.



2.b.3. Note because the Firestone/Cleveland wheel designed for the 2846D rim already had the cut outs for the lugs – we believe but have NOT verified that the standard Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B with fixed lug rims will run fine on them.

3. For Canadian produced Model Ts, Allen Peters provided us a page from the 1926 Canadian Price List of parts shown below:



Note that it clearly has the loose lug style 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim listed for 1919-1924 and then a fixed lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher listed for 1925-1926 followed by a balloon demountable with loose lugs 1924-1926 that changed to a balloon demountable with fixed lugs for 1926 (and I would assume into 1927 – but since it is a 1926 price list it does not go that far.) I believe but would like to further verify or correct that the 1919-1924 style loose lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher were a copy of the Kelsey 88 loose lug wheels produced by Kelsey in Canada. See the book “In the Shadow of Detroit” for documentation that Kelsey USA opened a similar plant in Canada see page 104 and page 213 [Kelsey Wheel Canada] and Ford Canada purchased from them. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Mcgregor#v=onepage&q&f=false page 179 where it discusses a 1918 strike and says, “Because of the lockout such local suppliers of Ford as Fisher Body (Walkerville) and Kelsey Wheel were hit hard.”

4. There is still so much more to rediscover and hopefully document. Note, while I have several good photos of Kelsey felloes with the Kelsey stamped into the metal – I do not have any photos of felloes with Hayes stamped into them. And my own small supply of Hayes style felloes do not have one with the Hayes stamp showing or they were produced by one of the other manufactures. Anyone have some photos of Hayes stamped on a felloe?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 11:32 am:

Allan,

1. Thanks so much for posting – I’m always trying to gain a better understanding (or become more confused in some cases) concerning the Canadian supplied cars and chassis to Australia and other locations.

2. In Dave’s case we are assuming he is talking about USA produced felloes and rims. He is located in Wisconsin USA so it is possibly his car is far enough north that a Canadian rim or felloe could have been used as a replacement some time in the past. But we are assuming (and that can cause problems sometimes) that he is discussing USA rims and wheels/felloes.

2.a. I did a quick check of my junk wheel collection and found that 3 of the demountable wheels that are the 30 by 3 1/2 clincher demountable with the single flange on the inside, NO female lug for a Cleveland or Firestone rim, and have the indents (some folks say slots) on the outer flange for the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lugs to fit into. Also I have 4 others like that in much better shape on a car again with the Hayes style rims. So while you may not have seen many of those in Australia, I believe they are fairly common in the USA. Others with additional samples please confirm or correct that “guess” of mine. Note, I did not see any 1926-27 junk wheels with two flanges – only the single flange on the inner side of the felloe. But see the comments on Canadian wheels & rims further down.

Photo below of those three wheels:



2.b. Note, I have NOT included photos showing the single inner flange and no flange on the outside of the felloe when the wheel is mounted. The reason?

2.b.1. Unless you can see the valve stem hole to confirm it does NOT have a female lug for the Firestone produced Ford 2845D (and I’m 99 % sure that both Cleveland and Firestone produced those wheels and rims under contract to Ford) – they also only had a single flange on the inner side of the felloe. Below are the photos Royce provided (Thanks Royce!).





2.b.2. And below is a photo of Steve Shelton’s felloes (thanksSteve!). The top felloe shows the female lug around the valve stem that the 2845D rim fits into and prevents the rim with the loose lugs (similar to Kelsey loose lugs but different and uses the flanged lug nut rather than the Kelsey flat lug nut). The second felloe next to the Firestone type does NOT have the female lug and does NOT have the outer flange. It is the same style felloe that takes the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lug rims.



2.b.3. Note because the Firestone/Cleveland wheel designed for the 2846D rim already had the cut outs for the lugs – we believe but have NOT verified that the standard Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B with fixed lug rims will run fine on them.

3. For Canadian produced Model Ts, Allen Peters provided us a page from the 1926 Canadian Price List of parts shown below:



Note that it clearly has the loose lug style 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim listed for 1919-1924 and then a fixed lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher listed for 1925-1926 followed by a balloon demountable with loose lugs 1924-1926 that changed to a balloon demountable with fixed lugs for 1926 (and I would assume into 1927 – but since it is a 1926 price list it does not go that far.) I believe but would like to further verify or correct that the 1919-1924 style loose lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher were a copy of the Kelsey 88 loose lug wheels produced by Kelsey in Canada. See the book “In the Shadow of Detroit” for documentation that Kelsey USA opened a similar plant in Canada see page 104 and page 213 [Kelsey Wheel Canada] and Ford Canada purchased from them. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Mcgregor#v= onepage&q&f=false page 179 where it discusses a 1918 strike and says, “Because of the lockout such local suppliers of Ford as Fisher Body (Walkerville) and Kelsey Wheel were hit hard.”

4. There is still so much more to rediscover and hopefully document. Note, while I have several good photos of Kelsey felloes with the Kelsey stamped into the metal – I do not have any photos of felloes with Hayes stamped into them. And my own small supply of Hayes style felloes do not have one with the Hayes stamp showing or they were produced by one of the other manufactures. Anyone have some photos of Hayes stamped on a felloe?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 11:40 am:

At times like this I hate computers. Pictures -- what pictures? Of course I probably did something wrong. One more time hopefully with the phtos:

Allan,

1. Thanks so much for posting – I’m always trying to gain a better understanding (or become more confused in some cases) concerning the Canadian supplied cars and chassis to Australia and other locations.

2. In Dave’s case we are assuming he is talking about USA produced felloes and rims. He is located in Wisconsin USA so it is possibly his car is far enough north that a Canadian rim or felloe could have been used as a replacement some time in the past. But we are assuming (and that can cause problems sometimes) that he is discussing USA rims and wheels/felloes.

2.a. I did a quick check of my junk wheel collection and found that 3 of the demountable wheels that are the 30 by 3 1/2 clincher demountable with the single flange on the inside, NO female lug for a Cleveland or Firestone rim, and have the indents (some folks say slots) on the outer flange for the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lugs to fit into. Also I have 4 others like that in much better shape on a car again with the Hayes style rims. So while you may not have seen many of those in Australia, I believe they are fairly common in the USA. Others with additional samples please confirm or correct that “guess” of mine. Note, I did not see any 1926-27 junk wheels with two flanges – only the single flange on the inner side of the felloe. But see the comments on Canadian wheels & rims further down.

Photo below of those three wheels:



2.b. Note, I have NOT included photos showing the single inner flange and no flange on the outside of the felloe when the wheel is mounted. The reason?

2.b.1. Unless you can see the valve stem hole to confirm it does NOT have a female lug for the Firestone produced Ford 2845D (and I’m 99 % sure that both Cleveland and Firestone produced those wheels and rims under contract to Ford) – they also only had a single flange on the inner side of the felloe. Below are the photos Royce provided (Thanks Royce!).





2.b.2. And below is a photo of Steve Shelton’s felloes (thanksSteve!). The top felloe shows the female lug around the valve stem that the 2845D rim fits into and prevents the rim with the loose lugs (similar to Kelsey loose lugs but different and uses the flanged lug nut rather than the Kelsey flat lug nut). The second felloe next to the Firestone type does NOT have the female lug and does NOT have the outer flange. It is the same style felloe that takes the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B fixed lug rims.



2.b.3. Note because the Firestone/Cleveland wheel designed for the 2846D rim already had the cut outs for the lugs – we believe but have NOT verified that the standard Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B with fixed lug rims will run fine on them.

3. For Canadian produced Model Ts, Allen Peters provided us a page from the 1926 Canadian Price List of parts shown below:



Note that it clearly has the loose lug style 30 x 3 1/2 clincher rim listed for 1919-1924 and then a fixed lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher listed for 1925-1926 followed by a balloon demountable with loose lugs 1924-1926 that changed to a balloon demountable with fixed lugs for 1926 (and I would assume into 1927 – but since it is a 1926 price list it does not go that far.) I believe but would like to further verify or correct that the 1919-1924 style loose lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher were a copy of the Kelsey 88 loose lug wheels produced by Kelsey in Canada. See the book “In the Shadow of Detroit” for documentation that Kelsey USA opened a similar plant in Canada see page 104 and page 213 [Kelsey Wheel Canada] and Ford Canada purchased from them. See: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Mcgregor#v=onepage&q&f=false page 179 where it discusses a 1918 strike and says, “Because of the lockout such local suppliers of Ford as Fisher Body (Walkerville) and Kelsey Wheel were hit hard.”

There is still so much more to rediscover and hopefully document. Note, while I have several good photos of Kelsey felloes with the Kelsey stamped into the metal – I do not have any photos of felloes with Hayes stamped into them. And my own small supply of Hayes style felloes do not have one with the Hayes stamp showing or they were produced by one of the other manufactures. Anyone have some photos of Hayes stamped on a felloe?

Respectfully resubmitted and hopefully the photos will be there this time,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 03:23 pm:

Hap,
The second of Royce's photos, the one showing the made in Vietnam tyre, is an interesting combination.In Australia I have never seen a loose lug like that which accepts a tapered nut. Ours are all square shouldered. That felloe shows no land and the loose lug tight on the felloe, indicating a misfit/ mismatch?

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 06:09 pm:

Allan,

The land in the Firestone felloe has machined notches that accept the "tooth" of the lug.

It is near impossible to find a picture taken of a T in the past 20 years that does not show the clincher tires made in Vietnam, because they all have been made there for a long time with a few exceptions coming from Dunlop of England.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 03:30 am:

Royce,
Your photo shows no land for the longer leg of the loose lug to engage on. The lug appears to be bottomed out on the outside of the felloe. This means it engages on the rim at the short end and the felloe on the middle of the lug. In Australia, that felloe has a stamped in notch on which the long leg of the lug engages, the short end engaging the rim, and the centre of the lug standing off the felloe. In such application the square shouldered nut gives much wider contact and is less likely to bend the lug than the tapered nut shown in your photo. Is that fitment correct?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 07:34 am:

This is a photo of the rim and felloe and its lug that Allan mentioned

felloe6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 11:49 am:

Allan,

So much more information still to be rediscovered so little time. Myself and others have had trouble looking at Royce’s Firestone (and I believe Cleveland produced the same rim & wheel also for Ford) wheel and rim photos. They apparently work great with the removable lug (which is different from the Kelsey lug) and the felloe which is unique to that style wheel. But because I had never seen them (and I still have not seen one in person) it took me a good couple of weeks before it would soak in that it was just another style of wheel, rim, and removable lug that Ford used. Many of us have experienced that weird feeling of seeing something that we have not seen before and thinking “that can’t be right.” For example in a previous century when I was around F-4 Phantom jet fighters, the first time I saw a new F-16 fighter turn on the F-4 I thought ….”it can’t do that.” But after seeing it happen a few times I quickly figured out an older F-4 did not want to get into an aerial dog fight with the newer fighter that could literally do things the older fighter could not do.

There is a much longer posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html which at the end concludes that Firestone (and probably Cleveland) produced that style of wheel/felloe, rim, and lugs and that the lugs pull down tight against the felloe on that style of wheel. That design possibly would help prevent folks from over tightening the rim on the felloe. I.e. the nut would get tighter but the rim would not be forced any further onto the felloe.

Great inputs! Thank you to everyone and other inputs are always appreciated.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Thursday, November 17, 2011 - 04:42 pm:

Thanks Hap,
If that is a correct fitment, I presume the longer leg on the loose lug does nothing more than stop the lug rotating as the nut is tightened. I believe we have nothing like that in Australia.

Allan from down under


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