Anybody ever use macs cotton bands?

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Anybody ever use macs cotton bands?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, October 27, 2011 - 09:02 pm:

was wondering if anybody has ever used macs cotton bands, they are more reasonably priced than others and i would rather not go to kevlars.

things i was wondering is, how they wear, how do they fit etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 03:53 pm:

Has nobody ever used these?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 04:03 pm:

Why?

At least a cotton band lining with additives to retard glazing would be useful....but the modern repro 'Scandinavian' linings are real bad about breakdown of the fabric, leading to lots of fluff and gum junk.

The Kevlar linings are the better today for fabric. Or use Guinn wood band linings.




Fuzz from bad Scandinavian linings of today.




Modern wood linings....clean and great to operate the T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Pacoima, CA on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 07:00 pm:

I'm running Scandinavian's now, they work great but I got these more than 30 years ago. So would they be classified as the modern version? I don't know.

But I do know there are more than a few on the board here that swear by those wooden bands, expensive though they might be, but according to some of the lads here they last a very long time, or is it they don't ever wear out? I forget, but one things sure, they don't hurt your drums.

So figure it as the old equation, the more you pay the better the quality, the better the quality the longer they last.

If you do decide to run those cotton's, you might want to invest in that transmission cover filter, it's supposed to trap all that nasty lint and stuff and keep it out of your oil lines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steamboat on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 07:37 pm:

I don't know how Mac's cotton lining is but I have seen some of the recent linings and thay are not what I used when I was going to school, 60 or 70 years ago. In the truck I have now it came with linings which are still in there which I believe are Scandinavian cotton. I did replace the brake lining and for it I put in Kevlar. The brake band does get more use but all of my bands have been in there for over 2000 miles and have been adjusted maybe twice. I can't believe the current cotton linings would do as well.

I don't believe Kevlar is the problem as far as cracking drums or whatever. If the car is driven like a modern car with hard stops from 30 mph or lots of slipping in low, the drums will get hot. It should be driven as they were driven when they were still around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 09:25 pm:

I can't help but wonder if Kevlar isn't responsible for the poor driving habits of some. A kind of "Slip the bands all you want 'cause they'll never wear out" kind of attitude. Just speculating.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 09:51 pm:

ive got the ford faithful oiler on my T and it catches a decent amount of the crap,

the bands macs sells are 26.50 a set. it may be worth a try,

im also not opposed to trying the wood bands. its unfortunate that the scandinavia bands couldnt be owned by someone drives model Ts and wants to produce the best product available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Friday, October 28, 2011 - 10:11 pm:

ive got the ford faithful oiler on my T and it catches a decent amount of the crap,

the bands macs sells are 26.50 a set. it may be worth a try,

im also not opposed to trying the wood bands. its unfortunate that the scandinavia bands couldnt be owned by someone drives model Ts and wants to produce the best product available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 03:43 am:

I've got kevlar bands in my '25 coupe. I posted this story earlier this spring, but to shorten it up, I got on a mud road just after the frost went out. For those of you that live in cold weather country in the winter, you know what I mean. For those of you that don't, when the frost goes out, the ground is VERY soft and LOOSE and MUDDY! The old coupe didn't have enough power to pull the hills, this is hilly MO. River bluff country. We had to back up, wind her up as tight as it would go, then mash low pedal. We would go a few feet, stop, roll back down a bit, and repeat. We had to do this many times, we were cutting ruts up to six inches deep. We never got stuck, just ran out of power. We did this for two and a half miles. If I had my Chacago transmission installed then, I think we could have walked right out. My two wheel drive '83 Ford pickup would have been hopelessly stuck on the first hill. My point is, if we had cotton bands, we would have been dead in the water at the first hill. By using my head and letting the engine and transmission cool a bit before each assault on the hills, the old girl got us home. I had to clean the transmission screen and adjust the low band a bit, but that was all. I don't know how anyone could abuse those bands much more. That made a believer out of me. By the way, we had a flat tube radiator and no water pump, she never got above the normal range on the Motometer. Just my experience. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:08 am:

Guys the reason the 'newer' Scandanavia bands aren't as good as the older ones is because they dont have as tight of weave as the originals had. If I'm not mistaken the band on the right side in Dan's pic is either an old Wards band or an old Scandanavia. In my mind its the tightly woven cotton fabric thats makes a big difference. Look closely at Dan's pic and you can easily see the difference. Wards and Scandanavia original cotton bands do last a long time as far as cotton goes because of the tight weave.
Kevlars arent woven as tightly as the old cottons but the Kevlar material makes them last longer.
The Macs cotton bands probably wouldnt give off the 'goo' that the Scandanvia repos do so that might be a good thing since they dont have the coating on them.
The old saying that "they dont make things like they use to" is true for the Scandanavia Bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:17 am:

There used to be a company called Mark Auto Co., in Layton, N.J. I think they are still around, but only sell wholesale. I believe they are the ones making the cotton bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By richard wolf on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:27 am:

Hal;
You are exactley right. As David was talking about his story of driving on that muddy/hilly road and reving the engine and popping the clutch, so to speak,is a sure way to crack the trans. drums by slipping and getting them over heated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 10:43 am:

Through the myriad of T's in the stable, I guess I can say that I have had experience one way or the other with all of the above.

I'll overly simplify a few things yet the answer is that all of the above will work and work well provided you pay attention to detail on installation, and attention to detail on how you drive!

My experience on Kevlar is that you have to handle installation a little differently, and have to drive a bit differently. I set them so loose to begin with that the first drive and wear in is almost a why bother and it is immediately back to cover off and taking another turn...but I do it knowing I need to walk them in under load and heat. Then its like everything else...fact is Kevlar generates heat faster so you sort of need to really learn how to dump the clutch into low, and pump them on braking differently...after a while and many T's it's easy to let the car itself tell you what you need to do. I've told the story once before...had just put Kevlar into the '26 and had walked them in twice, keeping my eye open for the 3rd time. Brother in law borrowed the car and the trailer, had the trailer ramps at like 40 degrees and tried returning the car to the trailer and feathering low at the same time....NOT! His solution was to crank up the low pedal 2 full turns and launch onto the trailer! Needless to say, when I got the car back it wouldn't roll! Fortunately no broken or cracked drum but I started all over again from almost too loose and brought it back in over several drives. They work fine and are responsive still today.

No matter which style used, you'll find that pumping the brakes in a controlled 2::1 gives you longer band life...period...this of course requires a bit more stopping distance...learn it!

As far as wood bands being expensive, I look at it from a totally different view. I buy Jim's complete sets when I've done wood bands. I don't at all consider it expensive. I get metal bands that Jim has determined are round to begin with, I get lug ears that are demountable and Jim has already worked the quirks out of as to locking and unlocking, the rivets are done exactly right, and I'm starting with a total known. To me, its worth the 150 bucks for a complete ready to run set...and I may never have to touch them again...but thats me

I recently picked up a car that has what looks like relatively recent Tar Baby's for bands and they behave a bit squishy as compared to my others...just learn to adapt driving habits to run what you have and all works out in the end. I have an oil screen to put in on the Tar Baby ones, as for the life of me I have yet to figure out how a half turn can have so influential effect and then just go away in a few hundred miles and there is no evidence of a cracked drum and I've assured myself the spring is good and doesn't ride up. Might be interesting, might not...we'll see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 12:30 pm:

I have a couple sets of the Mark cotton band sets and they are very similar or near exactly the same weave as the several sets of NOS Ford band linings in the box that I have.

I have had comments from customers that the newer production Scandinavias do have a "squish" factor usually resulting in over-tightening thus causing the scenario seen in Dan's filter screen. I agree that the weave is apparently quite loose in comparison the original style Scandinavias or similar brands from the era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 02:42 pm:

Richard, you missed my point. I did NOT slip the bands. As I said, I MASHED the low pedal and let the transmission cool a bit before each assault. I did not break any drums, but my right leg was sore for two days! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman Hays, KS on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 03:14 pm:

Here's a question looking for an answer from someone who may have done this already. Having picked up boxes at swap meets and auctions I've a couple of sets of old original band material. With the boxes all in poor condition and/or missing parts of the boxes the cotton is dirty, so has any one ever "washed" the dirt away?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 07:37 pm:

A year or so ago I called Mark about the cotton bands and they told me they quit making the cotton bands a few years ago or so I was told. I installed some of the Wards bands in my 21 Touring restored chassis and they work fine. I am using up some parts to I have had for years to use on the 21 rebuild and I had a choice of the old Scandanavia or the Wards bands to use instead of spending more money. I guess I am cheap but the old bands are still pretty good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By richard wolf on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 07:47 pm:

What ever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Saturday, October 29, 2011 - 09:22 pm:

as i understand it mark auto no longer makes the model t bands.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 01:41 am:

Richard, "what ever" ???? Do you not believe me? Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Pacoima, CA on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 02:01 am:

My father told me today that they used to use harness leather as a replacement for worn out bands on the farm (for two reasons, one they had lots of it, two it was cheap and easy to come by). But I don't know how well they wear, one would think it should be better than those new cottons.

I suppose you can get it a tack and feed stores. Just a thought. I think I'll go have a wee chat with the harness maker in town, in the interest of an experiment. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 02:05 am:

Martin, interesting. I have heard of leather being used for rod bearings, but never band linings. Keep us posted. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 07:48 pm:

The Mark Auto linings were exceptionally good and I would stock up on them if they were still available. The old Scandinavians are just as durable. The new Scandinavian linings, identifiable as being made by Cantex, work ok if you drive properly, but no good for owners who can't, or refuse to, grasp the golden rule of "don't slip the bands". Their other problem is they are shorter than they should be, so take some thought in attaching to the bands.
Having a set of perfect drums, and wanting to keep them that way, means no kevlar in my car.
I am curious to know what the Macs linings are; anyone bought a set so we can see?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Monday, October 31, 2011 - 09:38 pm:

im thinking i may have to purchase a set just to see what they look like, or maybe calling them and seeing who their supplier is. at 26.50 a set it really makes me wonder what these mystery bands are?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 06:27 am:

The MTFCA Transmission repair manual has a listing of available band materials when the manual was written, perhaps around 20 years ago?
They list Mac's cotton bands, the usual two suppliers of Kevlar bands, Scandianavia and wood bands - and one option I've never seen discussed here on the forum; Chaffins made bands out of modern clutch lining material. It's not in their on line catalog anymore. It's not even in their 1995 catalog.
Perhaps Glenn can tell some more? How did it perform as a band material? Why was it discontinued? Was it the kevlar competition?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jasonious, Western Washington on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 12:19 pm:

Can someone please elaborate on "Jim's complete setup"? If i understand correctly, someone sells premounted wooden bands as a complete ready to install package?

Where can I find those? Details please,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 12:41 pm:

Jasonious,

Jim Guinn is like the father of wooden bands.

He has a website...

http://www.guinnbands.com/order_bands.html

He will sell just the wood liners for a make your own....or complete ready to run kits


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez - Templeton, CA on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 09:02 pm:

Guinn bands may be OK but when I had one fail all I got was excuses from the devotees of wood and no comment at all from J.Guinn. (His response was cricket, cricket). I now use Kevlar bands and am very pleased with them. If the "Father of wood bands" is not interested in backing up his product then why use them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 09:25 pm:

In what manner did it fail, John?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, November 01, 2011 - 10:09 pm:

John:

If I remember right, you were the only one on this Forum that ever had a problem with wood liners....... or was it due to the other engine problems you experienced that led you to believe the wood liners were to fault ???????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 09:53 am:

I installed a new set of wood bands from John and promptly glazed them so badly that the chatter caused me to remove them and put an old cotton set back in.
I didn't think I was "slipping" the clutch but apparently I was.


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration