I am 76 years old, have been messing around with Model Ts fro most of my life...
somebody explain to me how cranking a T with the left arm is any different from cranking with the right....I always crank with the right hand, from the 9 PM position straight up..One quarter turn...If I forget to retard the spark is just pulls the crank out of my hand...I don't think it's possible to break an arm that way..anyone ?

Ralph,
You may be lucky but many arms have been broke doing what you do. If it kicks back at about the 9 or 10:00 position, the crank can fly around and bite you and your arm or hand is less likely to be hit if you use your left hand.

Here are a few pics.
http://www.pbase.com/jimthode/tcranking

Jim

Read these older posts

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/197162.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/193597.html

Your age insures some wisdom, and some luck, maybe time to re-think your cranking ways

I crank with left hand only, open palm, thumb outside the handle, on the up pull.

A couple other discussions on this at:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/197162.html?1300129667

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/193597.html?1298766021

I have used the right hand for years and am lucky. After seeing some of the previous posts I changed. For the last year or so, I have changed my way of cranking. I use the right hand to prime with the key off, and then turn the key on and use my left hand pull up from about 8:00 to 12:00 and lift my arm as I run around to advance the spark. I find that using the left hand is akward at first until I got used to it, but it gets my arm out of the crank's path, should it kick, and it also puts me closer to the spark lever. It works somewhat the same as a left handed batter getting to first faster.
Nrom

Jim

And this video clip shows a "almost" broken wrist, he winces in pain while telling the wife to 'stop that' video camera as he checks out the hurt....got his arm caught in "the circle of pain".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCsUQAjcI0

Ralph:

My guess is that you've been lucky. I have a rebuilt engine with 70 lbs of compression on the cylinders. I've had it kick back several times due to the Anderson Timer advancing the spark because of a catch in the flapper. Over time, the timer contact wears a groove in the flapper (? terminology), causing a catch in it. Contrary to what the instructions state, it requires constant lubrication; otherwise, the groove becomes deeper. I wish I had known about this before the damage was done. The kickback wasn't hard as the lever only advanced about 1/3 of the way; however. I felt the potential dangerous force that I've read about. The kickback threw my LH completely out of the way as the crank spun counter-clockwise around.


Since I have a starter, I use that 99% of the time. I have successfully started the car via the crank and it doesn't take long to get used to using the LH. I conduct bands and play the piano as a profession, so I certainly don't need a broken wrist to ruin my career. For me, it's LH all the way with the thumb up. As the saying goes, "better safe than sorry."

Here is a true story from an injured T member that I posted March 13 of this year:

I bought my car in August of 2006 and, upon being the new owner, did some investigating on it's prior history. Come to find out, my car had gone through five different owners in ten years time. It needed a LOT of work, which is why it was probably it didn't remain in a home for more than five years.

Getting to the plot of my story...at one of the Early Bird Swap Meets in Puyallup, I was discussing my car with one of the former owners who was manning the information booth at one of the buildings. I saw this terrible scar on his wrist and asked what happened. He said, "I got that from trying to start your car."

Ralph,

I also crank with my right hand. I can see the advantage to cranking left handed, but I still prefer to use my right hand. I'm just careful. I'm sure there are those who will say I'm just lucky and it's not a matter of if, but when..... Whatever.....I'm not going to change my ways.

The other matter for which I've never had a good explanation is where to put the thumb. There's all kinds of people that will tell you you have to put your thumb on the same side of the crank handle as your fingers, but no one can tell me why. They can post pictures from old books and say it says so right there etc...but no one has been able to tell me what the consequences are if you don't, other than it'll take your thumb off or it'll pull it out socket, but they can never seem to explain just how it is supposed to happen I just can't see it unless you are pushing down on the crank over in the 3 o'clock area, but even I will tell you THAT'S a no no.

Dan,
Yes, I have seen that video and have looked at it very closely frame by frame. The crank did not hit his hand but it was very close to it.

Another good video by Steve showing the safe method being used when the engine kicked back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_lkFGQToIw

Jim

If cranked with the left hand, while the right hand holds on to the driver's side front tire, nothing is in harm's way.
If cranked with the right hand, the right arm and elbow are right in the path of destruction.

Since it's very difficult to get rid of bad habits (such as putting the hand inside the steering wheel), it's important to learn everything the right way from early on.

Here are some older posts again, good reading.
This one form 2009, and confessions by posters of being hurt, (hit in head, stitches in the thumb, banged on right hand) from cranking.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/81356.html

And...If you are not squeamish, this post from 2008
..scroll down to the post of Sat Oct 11, 2008, 12:56 AM...as to why you left hand, and cup the handle and keep your thumb to the side.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68644.html?1224126132

At later post 1:21PM is explanation, he was using the left hand, but still got a bite by Ford.

Don't know if the thumb caught and took his left hand into 'the circle of hurt', but when I hand crank, am careful to be aware, light hand on the handle, ready to pull away if the motor starts going back wards. That crank handle will spin at the revs the engine will make when first starting, and that can swing the crank back at your hand fast.

And hand cranking an unknown Ford, (one you have not hand cranked before) you have to take extra care.

Ah..missed the one I wanted to post.

Here is the link again.

But scroll down to Oct 12 9:57 for the injury by cranking with right hand,

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/68644.html?1224126132

A few thoughts from a guy who doesn't usually hand crank a T as I generally use the electric starter.

Hal, I think the reason for not grasping the crank with the thumb is that in case of a backfire and because the thumb is very strong, the crank could dislocate the thumb or pull your arm part way down before you get loose from it, thus leaving your arm in the path of the crank as it comes back around.

I have noticed that when you pull the crank up to 12:00 o'clock the compression stroke isn't quite over. With the left hand you'll naturally pull the crank a little past 12:00 o'clock, completing the compression stroke. This leads me to believe that it was intended that the T be started left handed.

When I was a kid my dad required me to learn to cast my fishing rod left handed because the reels at the time had their cranks on the right side. It eventually became second nature. I plan to learn to crank the T's left handed. I believe that once one gets used to it it will work better.

Your mileage may vary. Bob

Sorry to disagree guys, but after 41 years of cranking with my right hand, I have tried cranking with my uncoordiated left hand and absolutely hate it. It feels all wrong, so I remain a dedicated righty. Jim Patrick

I haven't looked at any of the links posted this time around, but in the past, I have seen some videos that made it look like the owner was just down right SCARED of his car! They were almost humorous, except for the fact the people in them were serious. One showed a guy who pulled the crank left handed and practically ran for cover. Gimme a break!

Hal

This old post is for you on Holloween......don't get scared !!! Oh Oh Oh

Steven G. Williams on Sunday, October 12, 2008 - 09:57 pm:
Greetings All!
Dick L. emailed me that this thread was here. I've been off the T's for a bit, trying to catch up with other things since breaking my wrist at Richmond. The first day. I've had the touring for 7 years, nary a problem. Always careful with the machine, and when I got tired of replacing those *&^#@ cheap foot pedal starter switches, the last time it went out, I just used the crank. Had cranked the machine many times before. And have been cranking her for about 3 years now.
I always held the crank correctly, start at 7 o'clock, release at 12, thumb under the crank. But a question and conversation from maintenance man at the motel distracted me, and a split second later I had this sharp pain and saw stars. The picture below shows what the surgeon did for me Thursday morning in Richmond.
I see the surgeon here at home tomorrow, for what I hope is the final follow-up visit. I have completed four weeks of therapy on the wrist, he may order more. I only have 25-30% range of motion, and am not sure how much more I'll get. It still aches all the time. Can't play in the church handbell choir yet. Can't resume my pipe organ lessons yet. Typing is a pain.
And the kicker is, I'd crank again in the future. I enjoy seeing people's reactions. But I'm going to be sure the starters work though. LOLOL
Dr. told me to leave the T's alone until the wrist was through healing. The money I was going to use to go to Detroit and the Piquette T's tour last month went to the doctors...$3,000 and still counting... deductibles and co-insurance. You don't want to know what the total bill is so far. Cancelled all reservations for Detroit - still haven't heard if I'm going to get any of my tour deposit back.
What really amazes me is the smug self-righteousness of those who think it can't happen to them. In my cast at Richmond I saw those folks wrapping thumb and hand completely around the crank handle. Saw folks spin the crank. I'd hate to think what a kick-back would do to someone's knee... It's only a matter of time, folks. We're all careful, but its that one split-second of something unusual and BAM!
Regards,
Steven

Dan,

First off, I'm sorry that this happened to your friend.

I do find it intersting that he said he did it the right way, "Thumb under the crank", which unfortunately didn't help in his case. Nor would I expect it to. I would assume he either did not have the timer adjusted correctly, or more likely, just didn't check to make sure it was retarded. And you know? It may very well happen to me one day. But like I've always said, if it does, I'll man up and tell you guys.

As good as the Anderson timer is, it can cause the timer to 'self advance' on engine roll back when it gets worn. Certainly something to keep in mind if you run one. I don't believe a roller timer or New Day would ever do that. I have an Anderson on the TT and a Ford on Karen's Touring. I keep an eye on both when cranking.

Hal:

The comment on the Anderson timer happened to me twice before I realized what was happening - I mentioned that above. The first time, I was in self-doubt, thinking , "I thought I had adjusted the timer properly." I was sooooooooo glad I learned to crank with my LH. The crank literally threw my LH out of the way.

The second time it happened, I noticed that the spark advance lever had moved 1/3 of the way down, it wouldn't move to a fully retarded state and I KNEW I had only advanced it four notches. I began asking guys who use them about it - they didn't know. Then I took the thing apart and felt the groove where it had "worn in." Not long after threads about it began to be posted on the forum and the mystery was solved. After this experience, I'm a firm believer in using the LH.

Off-topic, but it reminds me of Y2K. We heard all of the warnings that it was going to be a big deal and had the big companies and the government done the legwork in rewriting the code, it would have caused a meltdown in the financial system. Some people say it was a bunch of bunk; however, it happened to my laptop! The battery was pretty much toast by the year 2000 and the computer would immediately shut down upon removal. Once the new millenia began, every time I would shut down the laptap, the date would revert back to Jan. 1, 1980 when it booted up. My point - we don't believe it will happen to us. We're all human and none of us are imune from our human tendencies. I quote Steven's words, "It's only a matter of time, folks. We're all careful, but its that one split-second of something unusual and BAM!"

Sorry for the confusing typos and misspellings. I meant to say "had the big companies and the government NOT done the legwork...." immune is spelled with two m's. I need to proofread better.

Jim,
Are you sure that the timer advanced while you were cranking, or after it started to run backward? The timer flap moves in the same direction that would retard the timer while the engine is moving forward, either being cranked or when running, but if the engine were to start to run backward, it would move in the direction which could advance the spark.
Norm

I think you can crank a T safely with the right hand but it has to be done a special way.

Face the radiator and then make a 90 degree turn to your left. Now grab the crank with your right hand keeping your knuckles on the OUTSIDE of the cranking circle. (same as you would left handed). Pull from 9 oclock to 12 oclock releasing the crank as you get to 12 oclock position and continuing up & out of the cranking circle.

This method is same as using the left hand as far as safty is concerned but lets you use your dominant arm.

Cheers
schuh

Tried that facing the car sideways thing to see if i could do it, Not very practical and might hurt your knees. Lots of people tell me to right hand crank but they are the same people that advance the spark when i am not looking so there might be something to left hand cranking. Had it kick back a lot when left hand cranking and been alright so far..

Norm:

It advanced while I was in the process of cranking. I recall a another occasion this summer when my father-in-law was staying with us. He was sitting in the passenger side and I had him keep an eye on the spark advance after it threw my hand out of the way the first time. I began cranking again and it advanced a second time without firing. I was done with that monkey business and I started it with the electric starter.

My experience with the Anderson timer 'self advancing' was not when you were cranking per se, but just after you pulled the crank and did not get a start. The engine would roll back to one of it's equilibrium spots. This is what caused the timer to move. It IS the engine moving backwards that causes it, but it is NOT due to a kick back, it is due to the engine rolling backward after a failed attempt to start.

Here is an accessory available from the vendors - but easily manufactured at home - that may prevent some occasions of self advancing timing:
http://www.modeltford.com/item/3524-25T.aspx

A "Self Advancing Timer"; is that a "characteristic" or a "design flaw"?

I have heard more than a few people mention the Anderson's quirks: it can advance if the engine rolls back, if you don't retard the spark Before you shut off the ignition you sometimes can't fully retard the spark lever when you are ready to restart the engine.

A few posts above Hal Davis mentioned that the roller style and the brush (New Day) style don't seem to move without human control and I agree. The roller or brush remain where you place them untill you move them again.

To those of you useing the Anderson timer Please do not think that I am condeming that timer. I am not. There are many thousands of these in use daily and giving their owners good service. I feel that it is necessary from the point of cranking safety to remember that the Anderson has a quirk or two and to have that fully in mind as you grab the "commencer" with whichever hand you choose.

Be safe and have fun. Bill

If its true that the Anderson can "self advance" after a crank that fails to start, I can't think of a more dangerous situation in the everyday prusuit of our hobby.

Timers are relitivly cheap compared to wrists/arms.

schuh

Well said, Bill.

Bud,

It could certainly be a problem, but nothing that would make me not buy one. It's simple enough to check the position before starting. That is the habit I've become accustom to, just as others have become accustom to pulling left handed. It doesn't seem to happen to all of them, and it takes a while for it to happen at all. Perhaps an inspection of the flapper every so often would show the wear before it got so bad as to cause a problem. I was able to grind my flapper on the bench grinder enough to smooth out the notch and am still running it.

That's good to know. I have an Anderson on one of my cars and it does a very good job of timing the spark. I have a starter, but I usually use the crank the first time I start after it has been sitting idle for a few weeks. I will keep my eye on the spark lever between pulls on the crank to be sure that it doesn't "self advance".
Norm

These left-hand vs. right-hand cranking threads seem to pop up about once every four months. The thing I always notice is that so far, with all the accumulated experience on this forum—and there's more Model T experience here than anywhere else in the world—we are yet to hear of an instance wherein somebody fractured their wrist while cranking left-handed.

I suppose we'll enjoy arguing the cranking issue back and forth forever, but as long as the above statistic remains intact, it pretty much speaks for itself.

I crank right handed starting with the handle at 7 o'clock and let go of the crank handle at about 1 or 2 o'clock at which point I continue moving my arm up and out of the way of the crank. Don't want to jinx myself, but that has worked for me for more than 40 years with no mishaps! If you cup your hand under the crank handle with thumb in palm and don't wrap your hand around the crank handle it will be pulled out of your hand if the car backfires and if keep your hand moving up and over to the right the crank handle can't catch you on the way around

I hope that none of you have thought that I was putting down the Anderson timer either. The instructions were a bit misleading (I''m doing this from memory, here), but they said to lightly coat the contact with silicone grease periodically. I firmly believe that had I lubricated the contacts more consistently and not "periodically," that the groove would not have worn in, creating the 'catch,' as I call it, which bounces the spark advance up.

When the engine is running, the spark advance runs smooth as silk and times the engine extremely well. Once the engine is stopped, however, then there's a rough spot where the spark advance will not move past (moving fully retarded), without a "snap" occurring. I've taken the thing apart, smoothed out the worn groove and the catch has lessened, but is still present. Since this is my first T and first timer, I'm sure that ignorance is part of the problem. I have my theories, but that's all they are. I'd like to have solid facts so that way I do not repeat the same mistake in the future.

Val,
I believe you when you say that right hand cranking has worked for you. As long as everything is right and the spark is retarded, it should never a kick back.

However, if it does kick back, it will kick back at about the 10:00 position and up to a speed of maybe 500 rpm. That is, it would take just 8 hundredth of a second to get back around to where your hand could still be in the "the circle of hurt", pretty fast and and too fast for you to make any effort to get out of the way. To get an idea of the speed of a back fire, look at the video links above. I would not want my hand and or arm anywhere near that thing.

The bottom line, I'm glad that we all have the choice about how we crank our cars. Threads like this do at least give everyone an idea of the hazards involved and possible ways to reduce the chance of personal injury in this hobby.

Jim

Yes Bob, I too do not recall hearing of a left-handed cranker receiving an injury.

BUT, (allow me a moment to climb up onto the soap box)

For how long have people been using their left hand to crank?

I have read here of this left-right debate only for the last year, or two at the most. (Some one please correct me if the debate has raged for longer.) I have participated in this forum for (hmm, I didn't write down when I first signed on.) eight or more years.

I was first introduced to the Model T in 1967 as a 13 year old. I learned how to crank, Right-handed, from a semi-retired mechanic at the local Ford dealership. He had started working at that dealership (with a different owner) in 1921. He had first-hand knowledge of how to repair and operate these cars. I don't think that he steered me wrong.

It has been through this forum that I have heard of left-handed cranking and have yet to see anyone crank start any car left handed. (I haven't watched the videos as they take way to long to load on my ancient computer and my browser often won't cooperate with most formats) At shows, cruise-ins, or on tour I have yet to witness a left hand crank start.

Start your engine any way you choose, just be careful; perhaps that implies that you ensure that your ignition is correctly timed, there is NO play or looseness in the timer linkage and that the spark lever is fully retarded when cranking with the switch turned to Battery.

I'll depart the soap box now. Bill

Don't worry about the soapbox, Bill. I agree with you 100%. People should crank any way they feel they should. It's just the self righteousness of those that think their way is the only way and those of us who don't do it their way are wrong (Or worse), that gets under my skin.

Bill

Guess it depends on experience and learning.

When I got my T at age 15, my dad showed me how to crank with left hand, pulling up, not to wrap the thumb, but cup the handle. Pull up and then pull away in case the motor fired backward, swinging the handle into my wrist or arm.

Have had the crank spin back at me before, scary, but my hand and arm were moving out of that swing circle when it occurred.

Injuries from hand cranking have happened, will happen and are part of the risk of starting an engine with a hand crank. You just need to have all the advantages in your method to reduce the risk.

From 1923 medical journal.....wrist injuries from hand cranking autos have been with us all along.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1517522/?page=1


Period photo of hand cranking, but not the method I use....you find what works for you and enjoy the fun Just don't get bit by Lizzie!

With the Anderson timer, always fully retard the spark just before shutting the engine off.

Bill,
Left hand cranking is nothing new, but with all the information online, just more widely known.

This is from 1916:



Jim

Harold,

Unfortunately, that doesn't always do it. When my flapper had the little groove worn into it, it would advance the spark as the engine came to rest. As the engine stops, it rocks back and forth a few degrees. That was all it took for the notch that was worn into the flapper to catch the fingers in the timer and advance it.

Hal:

I think you hit the nail on the head - that is exactly what I'm experiencing.

Jim,

Pull the flapper off the end of the camshaft and take a look at it. I'll bet you will find a notch worn into the surface of it. Of course, you can replace it, but I just smoothed mine up on the bench grinder and it works fine.

Hal:

I was a bit unsure of taking it off, so I it smoothed it out with my dremel. It did help. I think it was your earlier posting of this (a month ago?) that gave me the idea.