Glass - Did anyone ever temper their old stuff?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Glass - Did anyone ever temper their old stuff?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom J. Miller, mostly in Dearborn on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 03:46 pm:

I just back from my local glass shop.

While I was there, I inquired about glass for my 26 Fordor. I asked about laminated versus tempered for the side glass and discovered tempered is $1/square foot less and I won't get the bubbles in 20 years along with the telltale seam.

She asked for patterns and I told her all my original glass is intact so we will use those along with the club published glass sizes book as a double check.

My question: Assuming all my pieces of side glass are relatively in good shape, what's stopping me from asking her to throw them into the tempering oven instead of cutting new stuff? Even if there are microscopic scratches, wouldn't they be okay through the oven process?

I didn't think to ask her while I was there. I got this brilliant idea while driving home. I just thought it might be neat to say the glass in my car is all original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 07:51 pm:

They probably won't do it. The old glass is most likely a different composition. And scratched old glass may explode if heated. But, you can ask.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Pacoima, CA on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 11:38 pm:

You don't want tempered glass, you want laminated glass. Tempered glass doesn't crack it shatters, whereas laminated glass cracks and stays as a sheet.

If you do your own install, you can usually get the laminated glass (custom cut to your template) for about $50.00. That's what it cost me to do my 22 touring windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 12:01 am:

Ask them if they would temper it, that would be cool (or really superheated)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 12:49 am:

That's a good question I've never seen posed before, Tom. When I did cartwheels in my old (1951) VW in Germany, some of the windows popped out, but did not break. The driver door window broke into little stones, but did not cut me.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 01:06 am:

About 25 years ago at a show, I spoke to a man with a 1925 Studebaker Coupe. It had a dark green original accessory glass visor over the windshield. He said he had it tempered by a glass company for safety reasons. So, I guess it can be done to old glass. I would use new laminated safety glass for the windshield and temper the side and back windows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 04:10 am:

laminated glass cracks easily if it gets any side way forces tempered is far stronger.

laminated may be a problem if your body flexes a lot when going over uneven ground.

Had a friend who had to change to tempered glass in his depot hack windscreen as it always cracked if he had the body flex going over a uneven gutter/driveway etc.

If your doors are not framed solid the glass may crack especially if someone closes it by pushing on the window frame.

Nearly all new cars still have tempered glass in side and back windows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom J. Miller, mostly in Dearborn on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 09:35 am:

To confirm, as mentioned in my first post, I am only considering tempered glass for the back and side windows of this car.

I have seen antiques with tempered glass windshields at the Old Car Festival but I prefer laminated for those two pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Schwab on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 10:02 am:

I'd be afraid my windshield would explode if a stone was thrown up and hit a tempered windshield....the stuff doesn't chip like laminated, it'll take out the whole windshield.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 10:13 am:

Tempered vs. Laminated GlassBoth tempered and laminated glass are used in most of the passenger vehicles available in the U.S. today cars, vans, SUVs, and trucks. Each type of vehicle most likely has a windshield made with laminated glass and side and rear windows made with tempered glass. From a safety perspective, this is not adequate.

Laminated Glass Is Safer
Windshields are now made of laminated glass because of its greater strength. Laminated glass has two layers of glass bonded together with an inside layer of plastic, usually PVB (polyvinyl butyral). This layer of plastic bonding keeps the laminated glass from shattering to pieces in a collision.

Today, it's essentially unheard of for someone to be thrown through the windshield in a collision, because laminated glass keeps that from happening. The glass cracks, but it doesn't shatter and fall, or let a body through it.

Tempered Glass Offers No Protection
Tempered glass, in contrast, is a single sheet of glass that has been heat-treated. When tempered glass windows are impacted in a vehicle collision, they shatter, with two devastating results:

the flying shards of shattered glass can lacerate and severely injure or kill occupants of the vehicle, and
shattered or broken-out windows open up sites of exit from the vehicle, through which an occupant can be thrown. Being ejected from a vehicle in a collision greatly increases the chances of injury or fatality.

Laminated Glass Was Once Used
The use of tempered glass in side and rear windows and in roof windows (sun roofs) does not adequately protect the drivers and passengers of vehicles. Interestingly, American automakers started making their vehicles' windshields out of laminated glass in the late 1920s, and eventually made the rest of the windows in their vehicles with laminated glass too. This is a much safer design than the standard today.

A Cost Savings?
In the 1950s and 60s, the auto industry started using tempered glass in the non-windshield windows. Some late-year luxury cars and certain models of pickup trucks, SUVs and vans have laminated-glass side, roof and rear windows, but most vehicles do not have that protection; only their windshields are of laminated glass.

Talk to an Automotive Accidents Attorney
If your collision and injuries involved shattered windows and/or ejection from the vehicle, learn more about your legal options when you contact a law firm that represents the injured in automotive accidents.



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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 10:47 am:

I would compare the drivers face and body damage after a head on collision with tempered glass vs laminated glass. Even at 30mph the driver in a car with tempered glass will usually be cut up pretty bad. And with no seat belts? Id hate to think about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 11:55 am:

Be careful not to confuse tempered glass with the plate glass that was univeral before 1928. Tempered glass breaks into small stones.

For many years, and maybe still, European cars for domestic use had tempered glass all around. The supposed theory being that it was better bash your head against a windshield that wouldn't break rather than a laminated one that would let your head through, then close in on your neck like a Chinese finger trap.



The windshield in our Windstar was broken by hail 3 years ago. When I had it replaced, the guy showed me how much easier it is to break a laminated windshield from the inside than from the outside. I didn't think to ask him if that was due to curvature, or design.

It's best not to hit the windshield, or anything else, of course. That's one reason I have seatbelts in my T.



The other reason is to save the pax from being thrown out from a sharp maneuver or panic braking.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Hudson on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 11:55 am:

I would like to make a comment about the use of tempered glass vs laminated glass. Stephen, I would like to put forward that people not being thrown through windshields has more to do with the increased use of seatbelts, and better designs of said restraint than the integrity of the glass. The laminated glass, when you hit it, is like hitting a wall. Very easy to break your neck or incur severe head trauma. Laminated glass continues to be used top prevent the glass shards from entering the passenger compartment in a front end collision. I agree with the statement that you are safer inside a vehicle than outside. I have never seen anyone thrown form a vehicle that was PROPERLY restrained. That is why temepered glass has been allowed for the sides and rear of a vehicle. The odds of being thrown form a vehicle while properly wearing a seatbelt are almost nil. I have to disagree outright with the statement that flying shards of tempered glass can maim or kill. Yes, small lacerations can result, but I have never seen anyone with major lacerations or being killed as a result of flying shards of tempered glass. They simply lack the momentum to inflict those sorts of injuries. In case anyone wonders what qualifies me to make these assertions, I have been a Paramedic for fourteen years, and my area included a section of highway that was known as the worst highway in Canada, until it was replaced with a proper four lane. Wentworth Valley, lovingly referred to as death valley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 04:05 pm:

i am one of those people that likes tempered glass because it makes little sqaure pieces rather than little splinters which get in my way. Asked about laminating tempered glass but they said they could not be bothered gluing tempered glass together. My sister found if you apply stick on tint to tempered glass you get the best of both. It stays in a sheet but if it comes loose it is little sqaures


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Saturday, November 05, 2011 - 11:47 pm:

Rob what is the odds of being thrown without a seat belt. Why do you think they put in laminated glass in the front to keep you in. And how many people are thrown out from the rear or sides in roll over crashes? Or rear end hits? Not everyone wears seat belts in model t's. Safety first!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 12:26 am:

The European idea: Your head hitting a tempered windshield is like hitting concrete; it keeps you inside, while maybe scrambling your brain.

The American idea: Your head hitting Laminated glass breaks it, and absorbs some of the impact. With the advent of Interstates and faster cars, more heads went clear through the windshields, only to be stopped by your shoulders. The car stops, and the body falls back down... That gets pretty ugly.

Better not to hit anything inside the car, so seatbelts and airbags are best. A seatbelt saved me once. Another time, an airbag went off in my face as a horse was hurtling onto the windshield and top of a Ford Focus, landing behind us.

I like seatbelts.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Pacoima, CA on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 01:48 am:

You know everybody keeps talking about hitting your head on laminated glass whereas if you had tempered this would not happen.

The major cause of death in head on's in the early cars (up through the late 60's) wasn't hitting the windshield, it was getting impaled on the steering column or crushing your chest on the steering wheel. The second most popular was hitting your head on the metal dash board.

So I'm thinking that in all likelihood, in a head on your more likely to get high centered on the steering column rather than the go through the windshield.

The other reason should be obvious, tempered glass shatters on impact. Making the flying glass shards a real problem, not for being cut by them, but by the possibility of getting them or the dust from them in your eyes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 06:40 am:

Tempered glass when shattered made the windscreen opaque so you couldn't see through it which often lead to you running into something as you couldn't see where you were going.

One of our outback highways was called the "crystal Hwy" because of the tempered glass pieces along the side of the road not from head on or vehicles running off the road into something but from rocks being thrown up by other cars which you ran into at speed smashing the screen.

The odds about your windscreen being broken by a rock from a car approaching or overtaking is a lot more than you being in an accident where you were thrown through it especially as laminated screens became common after seat belts were introduced.

One thing they tried to do before laminated glass screens was to make the tempered screens easier to see through by making a zone in front of the driver that shattered into larger pieces so you had some vision if it was broken

I agree with Rob Hudson there is not much chance of being seriously injured by shattering tempered glass. Having worked in a body repair shop as a youngster we broke lots of tempered glass with no injury of any sort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 09:45 am:

I spent a very pleasant year thumbing around New Zealand and Australia almost 40 years ago.

One of the NZ drivers always pushed his hand hard against the front windshield every time we met or overtook another car on a gravel road — he told me this would reduce the likelihood of his tempered glass windshield shattering if struck by a stray rock. Knowing what I do now about auto glass, this seems unlikely to have any effect.

Still, I've wondered about it from time to time... Peter, Kep, whomever — have you heard of this technique and do you have any experience, pro or con, of its effectiveness?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Hudson on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 12:43 pm:

Stephen, Laminated glass was never installed as a restraint device, it was installed to keep glass (large dangerous shards, not little tempered pieces) from entering the passenger compartment, which often happens in a frontal collision. As Peter said in his opening sentence, tempered glass becomes rather difficult to see through when shattered, and rock hits on the front windshield happen with a rather high frequency. Also, ejections do happen out the side or back, when NOT wearing restraints. I would not depend on any glass to save my life. However, I only put laminated in the windshield in my T, because I dont want to be cut to shreds if something bad happens. I also plan to put belts in like Ralph has. Glass in any form is NOT part of the restraint system of a vehicle, nor was ever intended to be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, November 06, 2011 - 10:03 pm:

Chris, Yes that was/is a common thing country people did to prevent the tempered glass breaking. Did it work? well its hard to say maybe the windscreen wouldn't have broken if you did not place your hand on the windscren anyway but if it didn't break with your hand on it then obviously it "worked"

Had an actual experiance of this, driving with a friend "outback" road is gravel which in normal car approaches opposite direction, so he puts his hand on the screen, rock hits, windscreen chips, nothing happens- "Success" a few miles later we have to cross a cattle grid we hit it at speed ( you never slow down outback) and BOOOM the windscreen shatters.

Its always a gamble that any windscreen type breaks or chips. There is a big industry fixing chips by filling them with epoxy here. Also drilling laminated screens at the end of crack to stop them getting bigger. Sometime success other times waste of time.

Each type has its advantages just get rid of your plate glass which is what Tom was doing. I still can't believe there are people out there who still have plate glass in their cars but there are, there isn't any argument one can put up as to why it should not be replaced. Its just a death notice waiting to be served.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Monday, November 07, 2011 - 01:16 am:

i hold my hand on the window to try to support it. Not sure if it helps in reality but it is like instinct to do it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Friday, November 11, 2011 - 07:59 pm:

Did anyone point out that all new vehicle glass is " Tempered Laminated Glass"? Windshield and Side glass have two tempered plates laminated together with a flexible resin sandwiched in between.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Hudson on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 09:58 am:

Fred, the picture you show shows normal laminated glass. tempered shatters into tiny bits, with a totally random pattern. the breaks in that piece spread outwards. But is an excellent picture showing why we should all have laminated glass in a windshield


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 11:07 am:

I just replaced the glass in my '13 roadster with laminated. The new glass is approx 1/4" thick, about .030 thicker than original. When you have the glass cut, be sure to have them grind a bevel all the way around on both sides. This will allow you to get the glass into the channel easier. I also used parrifin wax on those edges. Next, I used bar clamps to force the glass into the channel. You risk breaking the glass if you use a rubber or rawhide mallet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Saturday, November 12, 2011 - 11:34 am:

Larry has hit on the main problem with modern laminated glass replacing vintage car glass. The thickness. In reading older posts apparently it's possible to find laminated at the right thickness but it seems most guys finagle some way to get what's available to fit.


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