What is so quick about quickchange bands?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: What is so quick about quickchange bands?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 01:07 am:

As you might see in the picture the spring for reverse is nearly fully compressed.

The lining is falling off in peices of lint.

Maybe my pedals are on the wrong side for these to be quick? No room to remove these at all.

Does this mean i have to remove the manifolds, pipes and possibly engine to get past the firewall? i did last time i changed the bands (like 6 months ago) um joy. No joy is the wrong word..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 06:34 am:

Usually the reverse band lasts the longest. You need to figure out why the bands are wearing out so fast?

The side the removable ear is on won't affect the wear. Its a little easier to remove / install the bands if the removable ear is on the side away from the pedals. But it works either way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 07:32 am:

Kep,

As far as my mind works mirror image :-) I would imagine no change from RH to LH if the parts are either flipped or mirror image to begin with.

Pack the cavity all with foam around the tranny and take the shaft springs apart. Pull the shafts out as far as possible.

The ears can be tricky to 'pop' and the simple tool for that is a flat head screwdriver where you anneal the tip and bend a 90 for 4-5mm. Then use it as the pop and wiggle to set the removable ear loose from its 'mooring'. Do look closely at your style of ear, some of them have an actual detent you have to work.

It seems always tough to pull one intact and thread another in, like...there is only one way it works and you have to find it. Myself I wiggle the front band up to the front, spin the open end down, and then wiggle and withdraw like a horse shoe. Then same with the middle, then same with the brake. Install is just the opposite. Like I said, I've pulled them in place before and tried not to kink on removal...pulling the new through with the spring steel guide piece works but it usually wants to balk until all the stars are aligned in the sky and then it just slides right into place...and the nudge forward and flip just seems easier for me.

As to why you lost so much reverse...rather odd indeed if it started looking like the other and had to be adjusted to that in as short a period as you say! I hate to mention it, but...unraveling like it shows and fuzzing like it shows, I'd take a real good look at the reverse drum all the way around before putting in another set.

Have to ask one of our 'left' minded guys if the parts are indeed mirror image or flipped 'stock' items. Post back what you do work out as I'm sure a bunch of us are curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 09:44 am:

George, I do not follow your reference to mirror immage. The transmission is a RHD as the low speed band is adjusted inside the transmission and the other two are adjusted from the outside without removing the transmission cover. This is just the opposite from what most of us in the US are used to working on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:02 am:

To answer your question, The thing that is so quick about quick change bands is that you don't have to take the hogs head off to change them so they are quicker to change..

I like to fit the end clips on and off and dress them up with a jeweler's file so that they work easily. It is difficult to file them to fit when they are on the drum. I also like to put a dab or dot of paint paint to identify each one so that you get the right end part on the correct band after you have taken time to re-size the end clips with your little files.

Shove them in from the driver's side and put the ends on as you pull them up to the right side. Put reverse in first and push it forward up and over the rim on the reverse drum and then the others will go in more easily. After they are all in, then and only then do you pull the reverse band back into its correct position.

If you are using wooden bands it is good to drill the small hole in the metal part of the band near where the clip goes on, all the way through the wood and out the other side. This lets you form a little hook on a long piece of the correct size wire to fit in the hole so you can reach down and get a hold of the band to pull ir up and around. I have never had much success with the band pullers because I have two left hands and ten thumbs.

These procedures work for me and are quick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:37 am:

Kep:

I don't know how your material went bad in only 6 months unless your drum was incrediably rusty and pitted when you put your last band in. All drums should be put in your lathe and polished with sand paper, but never machined. My first band change in my old Heavy Center Door was at 9,000 miles and that was with my first Kevlar band that only had a thin layer of Kevlar bonded to a cotton base. I now have 40,000 miles on my 'Center Door without another band change. This means that I drove it 31,000 miles and the bands are still going strong. The bands thatare in the Center Door now are all Kevlar not bonded to cotton. I have as high as 20,000 miles on my other Ts and have never had to change a band on any of them. Even my Montana 500 T has never had a band changed and they are still GOOD.
I would guess that not only is KEVLAR a good long lasting material, but I would suspect that WOOD band material would also last a long time. I read in the Forum quite often that the other NEW BAND material is POOR. SO ITS YOUR CAR TAKE YOU CHOICE OF MATERIAL

Like George says, check your drum for a crack on the running surface!!!!! Jack up your hind wheel, put the transmission in high gear and have someone crank your motor while you watch your running surface on the drumS.

cracked drum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 10:53 am:

kep, look close at that reverse band. It might be from an early GMC auomatic transmission and slightly longer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 11:01 am:

You must be slipping the bands when you drive and using reverse for a brake or else you are driving many miles on the Cantex variety of Scandanavia bands which are produced now. The best band material I have used is Rocky Mountain Machine Company's Kevlar. The Cantex bands are very poor compared to the original Scandanavia bands.

Using reverse is a bad idea except in an emergency. It has limited heat capacity and is often found cracked when you tear down a transmission. I use low gear and the engine, alternating with the brake, to slow the car. I don't slip low to get the braking but hold it down and let the engine do the braking. When you start from a stop, engage the low band and then accelerate. Don't rev the engine and then engage the low band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 11:18 am:

Your reverse band looks awfully tight, but I'm comparing it with mine, in which the threaded portion end of the pedal rod is even (flush) with the notched band nut so that the spring is almost fully open. Your reverse band looks as if it is totally compressed and that the reverse band, if not tight around the band, is almost certainly dragging against the drum, very badly, which is probably why it is shredding so bad. It is also probably crerating alot of heat and if your reverse drum is not cracked, you are very lucky.

As mentioned by George, one of the Ford books, (I believe it is the Model T Essentials) has an illustration for a lug removal tool made from a large standard screwdriver with the tip bent 90 degrees. I made one back in 1970 based on the instructions and I still have it. It does work and is a necessary tool for the removal of the lug. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:01 pm:

Yes i did use it as a brake in town. It was also old and got wet. i got the removable ear off, tried turning the engine over to move the gears out of the way but there is just not enough room to remove the band no matter how much i try. Thought it might be a side effect of the pedals being in the other side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 12:07 pm:

Got wet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 07:27 pm:

Having changed bands in a RHD transmission without taking the hogshead off, I'll give a few hints.

The thing that makes it real easy is to remove the cam pin from the brake pedal and replace it with a hardened bolt with nyloc nut. I can't remember the diameter, but it was an Unbrako hex headed bolt I used.
By pulling the whole brake pedal shaft out of the transmission, it becomes very easy to pull the band out. The detachable ears should be on the left side.
Pull the band out towards the left side of the car. Start with the brake band first because you don't have to bend the band as much. Then slide the others down to the brake position before pulling out.
Installation is the reverse. I used a coathanger bent appropriately to hook the other end of the band.
Total time to change just the brake band; 20 mins to remove (including removing the brake pedal), 10 mins to reinstall.
Beware that removing and installing bands this way can result in a flat spot; be careful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Monday, November 14, 2011 - 08:52 pm:

Willie,

The term 'mirror image' is jargon for the world of 'opposite hand' parts. It's not just cars that came in 'right' and 'left' but most industrial machinery also comes that way.

Sometimes it is just an easy case of flipping a mylar upside down putting dimensions on in the right orientation and parts done this way are called 'mirror image' parts as it has the same effect as looking at the original in a mirror. Some of the older indutrial places put a notation on their drawing, "Right hand shown, left hand opposite. Then they put two drawing numbers on it so that any revision was automatically common to both of the parts.

Sometimes in this 'right' and 'left' hand analogy, there are parts that need to be designed actually 'handed' and are thus different parts between 'right' and 'left'.

I was showing my own ignorance in Ford LHD & RHD differences and used the term 'mirror image' as opposed to NOT 'mirror image' as my instructions to Kep were based on lots of playing with LHD cars. If in fact the RHD parts are 'mirror image' of the LHD then the exact same procedure holds true. Dedicated handed parts might call for a different way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 12:00 am:

Thankyou for the "remove the cam pin from the brake pedal and replace it with a hardened bolt "idea. If i can figure out how to remove it i might do that as the pin in it now is sloppy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 01:23 am:

I wish there was some easy way the proper proceedures for assembly/maintainance could be put somewhere so anyone could go there and find exactly what to do. It appears every couple of months the same questions get asked.

The instructions for correct way to change RHD quick change bands are in the Canadian Ford Service bulletins from July 1925.

John H's instructions are not correct the detachable band end goes on the right side (pedal side) If the hogs head is an earlier one or the hogs head has been made up of assorted bits you need to have the later style adjuster screws No 3419 and the shafts on the reverse and brake pedals have to be cut off about 3/4" from the edge of the cams (it appears that yours are correct)

Looking at your reverse pedal spring as has been suggested the drum may be chewing up you band material or the material itself is lousy.

From you previous postings I get the impression that a lot of you car is made up of substandard parts. If you can move the reverse pedal forward and backward any more that a few millimetres you have wear on the cam. If it moves a lot you probably don't have enough cam action left to clamp the band and the adjustment has to squash up the spring so much just to get the band close enough to the drum so the pedal sideways movement can attempt to clamp it. If the cam wear is excessive you may not be able to apply enough pressure to stop the drum so its slipping and wearing out the band prematurely.

As Dave Huson noted you should get years out of band material not months especially reverse.

Kep if you email me I will scan you the Ford Bulletin instructions for you. They may not be easily readable here but I will also post them here also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 01:46 am:

If i can figure out how to email


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:52 am:

Here are the Canadian instructions

Kep, click on my name
QC 01
QC02
QC03


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 02:53 am:

Here are the Canadian RHD instructions

Kep, click on my name
QC 01
QC02
QC03


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 10:05 am:

The Ford Model T service manual says the quick change bands can be "changed" in 40 minutes.
Maybe in a day for me! I take my time so as not to get to frustrated. But 40 minutes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 11:58 am:

Back in the day, changing bands was a common practice with Ford mechanics. I have no idea what the record is, but I can envision the typical Model T mechanic doing a half dozen a day, so he had to be proficient at it to make money for his garage.

They probably had a system, whereby one mechanic would remove the bands while another would rivet the lining onto the band, or they might have assigned an apprentice to do nothing but rivet linings onto bands, in advance, to have them ready for the next job so that all the mechanic had to do was remove the old bands and change them out for a set of pre-riveted bands. Then the bands that were just removed could be put on the pile to be lined in their spare time and placed with the others for future use.

I'm sure that, as obsessed as Ford was, with the most efficient use of time, Ford provided his Service centers with well thought out procedures whereby a specific job could be perfomed in the shortest possible time with the fewest number of workers. Practice makes perfect. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 12:58 pm:

Anyone willing to race Joe Snow? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 01:12 pm:

I would like Joe to try it on a Center Door Sedan that just came in off of the street and not one of his trick jobs already made up and polished for him to show off with . . . ;~)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 01:55 pm:

I wonder how many band nuts and washers wound up down in the oil pans of Model T's Mr. Snow worked on. Folks tend to get careless and sloppy when they get in such a hurry.

That is why I take my time to stuff the pan with foam before working on my bands and even then still had an accident this weekend when adjusting the clutch drive plate fingers, I dropped a cotter key into the oil pan. Luckily, I was able to drain the oil pan and flush it to the edge of the oil drain with fast flowing mineral spirits where I was able to fish it out through the oil drain from the bottom, with a small magnet.

I wonder what the record is for removing dropped nuts and washers from the bottom of the pan by Model T Ford mechanics?...if they removed them at all. Who's gonna know?

I remember last year when I was putting in a set of Guinn wood bands and fumbled the nuts and washers no less than 6 times during the job. Luckily, the foam I had stuffed in tightly all around the drums stopped them all, but it just illustrates that, no matter how careful or experienced you THINK you are, accidents still happen to the best of us and there's not much you can do about it except to take the necessary precautions to minimize or neutralize the damage. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John H on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 05:16 pm:

That is interesting information from Peter Kable.
I guess having a removable brake pedal is the thing that allows me to have the detachable ears on the LHS while still allowing for easy band removal.
I definitely pulled them out in the opposite direction to the diagram above.
Never really thought about which side the detachable ears go because they were on the LHS when I got the car. And they'll they stay that way, esp. when I get 18,000km out of cotton linings on the low band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 06:08 pm:

You can remove the bands even quicker if you use a hogs head with removable pedals. There was a LHD accessory called "Himico" (spelling) or you can make one yourself. Here is mine which is on the Kamper. Made it easy to fit the two brake pedals as I could play with it without having to remove the hogs head.

I have quick change bands in my 1911 but didn't bother in the Kamper although they would make it quicker still.


John H try them around the other way its easier to fit them believe me.

With the pedals gone you can change a band on the road in far less than 30 minutes. I did this as you don't have to remove the nuts from the shaft (clutch pedal on RHD) you just pull the pedals off the ears. The bands go in real easy as there is so much space without the pedal section there.

pedals


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