I am new to this T business but I am learning fast thanks to the forum. I was going to ask about using a thermostat but remembered several posts recommending a search of previous posts. Am I glad I did - I got all the information I needed or wanted. I am so glad I did not start this discussion all over again. I have added thermostats and waterpumps to my growing list of taboo subjects. See, another lesson learned.
Please do not feel like you should not ask a question. Sure look and see if there is anything on the site. I think most subjects have been discussed over the years. New people join all the time who may have a better way to do things. Knowledge can increase, that is a good thing.
Also, if you have a hard time with searches on this forum, like I do, try searching via google by entering..... mtfca forum, then your topic of interest.
You know, sometimes it's nice that someone asks a question that hasn't been asked in a while. It helps to get a refresher on any particular "T" subject from time to time.
Everyone here is friendly and helpful.
How about posting a photo of your Touring.
I agree with Orlando. I've been on forums before that seemed a real turn-off to newbies. Someone would ask a question and the response would be "Do a search". Certainly, there is a lot of good information in the archives and it certainly doesn't hurt to look, but discussing the same information again can be good too. I've known guys who cataloged their answers for those 'repeat' questions, so they could just do a cut/paste job when the subject came up again. That reduces the work on the guy with the answer, but doesn't seem such a turn off to the guy asking. "Do a search" just sounds rude.
In my swave and deboner manner, I sometimes reply with, "RTFM, Read The Manual."
We were all new once and you should never be hesitant to ask questions because you feel it is taboo, or because you feel it may upset someone. Among my duties here at work is acting safety director, where I have a sign in my office above my window, pictured below, which should be our motto.
Sure, some subjects are prickly and some long time members get irritated when they feel they are repeating themselves, but helping eachother is why we are here, and, for the most part, most everyone here does not mind answering questions as many times as it is asked because there are ALWAYS new members who are just starting out and need to know.
I've been in Model T's since 1970 (41 years) and have asked many questions that were asked many times before, but if you need to know, you need to know. I am almost always successful in finding the answer to my questions by posting the keyword, then choose "all words" and "complete words", then searching one forum at a time, 2011, 2010, 2008, 2005 then old forum. If I try to search them all at one time it will overload the sytem and give me an error message, but sometimes I am unable to find it even though I remember seeing it on the forum in years past. That is when I find it necessary to ask and even then you should consider the fact that, by asking the question, you are asking it for someone who is reluctant to ask because they may feel that they will look foolish, but I don't mind looking foolish. Jim Patrick
Jim, Love the sign. I will be using that saying in the future.
Thanks all for the encouragement. Orlando asked me to post a photo. At this post it is not photographable (is that a word?) as it is in partially completed components scattered all over my shop. I promise when it gets to a stage where it is presentable I will proudly (I hope)post a photo. Of course I will have to learn how to upload it but I believe there is enough guidance out there for me to figure it out. If not,back to the forum.
James - so based on what you read in the forum, what did you decide? To thermostat or not to thermostat?
Take lots of pictures and or videos and keep a photo album. Unfortunately, in the 2 years it took me to restore my '26 Coupe (from 1970-'72), I have, not one, before picture to show what a rusted crate, peppered with bullet holes, it was when I bought her for $600.00. That is only in my memory and I can't share that with anyone.
Also, it is very important to use lots of ziplock bags, a sharpie pen and labels as well as drawing diagrams to remind you of how things came apart. Even the various sizes and lengths of bolts with washers, lockwashers and nuts attached should be bagged and labeled as to their location and masking tape used for labeling the wires. You'll be surprised how much you can forget in a month, much less two years. Jim Patrick
To Steve in Tenessee: To answer your question about my decision, I am undecided. I do have a good waterpump and a new 180 degree thermometer (bought it when perusing the parts catalog). As I am approaching reassembly I was thinking ahead about what I would do. After readin the forum comments, my major concern is failure of the thermometer and no way to know it. Probably will try it at least initially.
Jim Patrick: Good advise! I did not do original and in-progess pictures (wish I had) but I did make a lot of notes and sketches. Wish I had done a better job on sketching the wiring but I figured the wiring diagram would suffice - now I read they are not always to be trusted and they are not always clear. As for nuts/bolts, washers, etc. I bagged them along with a note indicating their use. I periodically visited Tractor Supply and purchased new ones which I put in the bags with the originals. I bought stainless whenever they were available.
Anyway, I am having a great time working on my project. It keeps me out of my wife's way and vice versa. So far no complaints about excessive expenditures from her - I guess she is just happy I am not hanging around her kitchen.
Hey James! Welcome nice to hear from another LA owner!
Why would you want a water pump or a thermostat? Water pumps are the #1 cause of broken down Model T's on any tour. A water pump or a thermostat is not going to make the car run any better. Either one will simply make the car less reliable.
Why is it nearly every car built since the mid-1930s, when modern thermostats became available, come with a thermostat?
Why did many earlier cars use thermostatically controlled radiator louvers?
No, it's not for the cabin heater.
The subject here is Model T's equipped with thermostats and water pumps.
Those cars are not Model T's. If you want to discuss non - Model T's why not join a forum devoted to those cars? Try to pay attention sir!
Because the Model T cooling system was designed perfectly and did not need a water pump or thermostat.
Anyway, could it be the higher compression or OHV or higher octane fuel needed it? I'm not old enough to know those answers.
Happy Thanksgiving, Royce.
"Thermostats for T" is the subject, Royce. Why did you add waterpumps? If you want to discuss waterpumps, why don't you join a Forum devoted to waterpumps? Try www.WellDiggers.com
Automatic coolant flow control Thermostats were not available in the T era. They were an invention that gained universal acceptance because they caused quicker warmup and steady engine temperature, which reduced engine wear and saved fuel. Those things are just as important to the T as to any other engine, and my post was to illustrate just how beneficial the smart people know they are.
I've always run a 180 thermostat in my Ts. If there were a hotter one available, I'd use it. Some people have replaced 192 thermostats with 180 in their EFI cars, and noticed a drop in fuel economy.
The Model T was the best design of its time. As a result, many millions were sold. Other than the first 2500 which had design defects, none had water pumps and none needed water pumps.
It is Ford's genius and great engineering which brings us all to this place.
If you want to restore / drive / stare at a car that came with a water pump originally by all means do so.
If you want to install a water pump / thermostat / electronic ignition / one of a kind distributor / latest gizmo from the reproduction parts place on your Model T go ahead, I will call the vulture wagon and help you push it on there when you break down.
Royce, you missed that I wasn't disagreeing with you. I put the smiley faces up for people to throw pies at. I knew someone would. Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone, thermostats or not!
The Model T had an early version of the modern automotive computer. Although the car worked very well, it seems that the air conditioner works well in winter and the heater works well in summer. Model T owners have been trying to correct this error with mechanical means: Thermostats, water pumps, radiator louvers and more, all to no avail. The problem is with the embedded software which can not be changed.
Hey, Peterson, you Sighted an old man that is dead now, that had a water pump start leaking, and held a tour up 1/2 hour, he was leading, and from that experience, we have heard a non stop whining from your experience, did you call the Vulture wagon for the old guy, and help, or did you just stand around B*&%#.
Now that brings me to another thing, when you were on tour this fall, and your Fan bushings went out, is that because you rebuilt it like the old Guy with the water pump, and maybe the workmanship was the same as the old guy with the water pump. Or maybe you just couldn't see the fan jumping around with wore out bushing, like the old guy with the water pump. So did every body on the tour stand around and B*&^% that you were holding them up with your neglected absence of attention to check small things, as water pumps, and fan bushings, oh, and did the VULTURE WAGON get you, or they just left your A%$ there! Knowing you, oh I bet that was embarrassing for you, a Model T God, in your mind, and all. Gosk, Peterson, it seems what goes around, comes around.
Herm, calm down, we are all supposed to be Model T friends helping Model T friends.
You are ALL entitled to your opinions but mud slinging one another is not nice.
I don't recall my fan bushings wearing out Herm. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else?
Herm, if you have some technical assistance for someone you should offer it poitely. If you wish to engage in a polite debate about the technical merits of something specific I would entertain that whole heartedly.
That sure isn't your style Peterson. Past posts in point, and as far as the fan bushings, that was the explanation under the two pictures, so better find out who got it wrong.
Maybe you could post a link? I think there must be some confusion with someone else. What tour was it?
It was on here, about the time the 1912 engines were being talked about, that were rebuilt badly.
Just more history on thermostats for auto cooling.
Cadillac had thermostatic controlled cooling system in 1913
and during 1918 or so, lots of development in thermostatic controlled cooling due to poor gas of the era, and forced cooling by pump was being used in more and more cars.
Motor Age 1918
And small thermostats to go in the cooling system were avail for the Ford and other cars in 1918
and you could get a complete radiator with a built in thermostat for your Ford in 1924.
...but with all those new methods of forced cooling, pumps, themostats,....the Ford thermosyphon still is working today with a clean system, efficient radiator, and good working order of the motor....the Ford way, 15 million provide the proof.
Like many products, just because they made it, does'nt mean you need it. It only means they thought you would think so.
Like so many fishing lures, not good at catching fish. All they have to do is catch the eye of the fisherman at the store.
James, I guess you are still learning, you DO NOT in any way mention water pumps or thermostats. See what you caused trying to prevent from causing what you did cause. That almost did not sound right??????
Yes, I agree with Willie, you even got Royce to tell me off for agreeing with him. Of course I think that might be easy to do.
Great analogy, Erich. I might use that in class sometime when the situation presents itself.
I just have to add one more post to this thread before it closes.
Willie/Doug: Just before I got to your last post I was thinking to myself, Look what I started - this is exactly the reason I DID NOT ask the question. After reading numerous previous threads I knew that asking would result in exactly what happened by not asking the question. Net result is there will never be agreement either way, so to each his own. There are plently of opinions either way. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments and sincerely hope everyone can/will remain friends despite the occassional disageements.
The lack of a pump of any kind in the Model T is just one more thing about it that I find utterly fascinating. I'm going to admit something here that might make some of you wonder about me.........I have actually taken the cap off of a hot T radiator just to look in amazement at the flow of water. To know that flow is due to nothing but gravity and a change in density due to temperature I find truly fascinating. I wouldn't screw that up for anything.
"Like so many fishing lures, not good at catching fish. All they have to do is catch the eye of the fisherman at the store."
Escept, the better cars of the era had waterpumps. And, thanks to Dan, we now know many had thermostats as well. How many of you have had more than one experience of thermostats failed closed in your moderns? It's so rare, most people, me included, will look at everything else first. It happened in a friend's BB GM pickup.
The T head is not even designed well for Thermobarf. Cooling for the back cyls has too little vertical travel, making #1 run too cool.
The elegance of the Ford design is lost on the unaware. The Model T engine uses the natural movement of the water to achieve perfect heat transfer. Water does not move until it warms. It needs no thermostat or pump; in fact those items decrease efficiency and hurt the operation of the engine while decreasing reliability and costing more.
The majority of cars built and sold from 1909 - 1927 - Fords - had no water pumps or thermostats because they were a better design.
James, This does not end easy, everyone wants to get one last "Word" in on their opinion.
I find it very amusing.
I will stay out of the waterpump half of this debate.
As for thermostats, I submit that they increase the efficieny of the engine, not decrease it and have with no negative effect on reliability provided the radiator is in good condition. Cost for a thermostat: under $10.
Ralph, where do you get your thermostats? I have had and seen several fail over the last fifty+ years and they ALL failed closed. I recall a few years ago someone was advertising a new style of thermostat that would stay open if it failed. That was their main selling point. Dave
(I don't recall my fan bushings wearing out Herm. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else?)
(Herm, if you have some technical assistance for someone you should offer it poitely. If you wish to engage in a polite debate about the technical merits of something specific I would entertain that whole heartedly.)
Peterson, that second paragraph of yours to me, is about the most Pathetic thing I have ever seen you write, compared to the other posts on this page of yours, but that was a good try to act normal for Chris, the Webmaster. Where I come from, we got a name for that.
Now, Peterson, at your suggestion in the first Paragraph, as you have plead senility.
(Maybe you could post a link? I think there must be some confusion with someone else. What tour was it?)
And the Paragraph, above this here is your link you asked for, and No Peterson, I don't make it up as I go along. This will no doubt be interesting, two pictures of you and your car, and your own words.
The fan pulley bushing failed on David's car. Not mine.
(Cracked solder joint on the lower radiator outlet. Water poured out as fast as you could pour it in. The fan pulley bushing had failed and the fan was hitting the lower outlet which might have caused the crack.
You don't see many T's with water pumps on tour.)
So you are saying that Royce Petersons Post on Friday, September, 30th, 2011, at 8: 13, AM is maybe some one else using your name. The one you started, I don't think that works for me Peterson. Read your own post again, and maybe come up with some other excuse.
Yes, David, thermostats fail closed, except for aircooled VW, Corvair, etc. There are two Fords in my driveway right now with over 200K miles, and one with over 100K, with original thermostats, AFAIK. Oh, and the thermostat in the T must have 100K miles. Bought it from Langs in 1997. It's for sure that a thermostat in a T is far more reliable than #1 sparkplug in an engine without a thermostat.
Elegant cooling system? The only car since the T I know to use thermobarf was the DKW 3=6, which loved to brag about their engine with only seven moving parts. Seen many of those?
"The Model T engine uses the natural movement of the water to achieve perfect heat transfer. Water does not move until it warms...."
The rate of expansion is nearly linear. The temperature drops just as well at 140 degrees with incoming water at 40 degrees as 180 degree water with incoming at 80 degrees. That's not temperature regulation.
Can you imagine putting up with this in a modern?
See how the coolant for #4 has to travel three times as far as coolant for #1? Elegant? No, expedient, yes.
Good grief Herm, read the whole thread. Royce says very plainly that it was David's car, not his. Give it a rest. Dave
I don't know, I've never seen the need for either water pumps or thermostats. The thermo-siphon system of the original design seems to work just fine for me. I did replace the slurp-up tube with a brass one though, less likely to corrode or plug up.
Also these are not high pressure systems, so a little boiling over isn't going to hurt anything all that much, just put more water back in. Although you might want to invest in what I consider to be a great little accessory, Boyco Cans (carries 1 gal of gas, 1 gal of water and 1 to 2 quarts of oil)(because a model T usually leaks or needs all of these at some point).
I remember that my great grandfather had a T truck out on his farm that had a cut down 50 gal (about 25 gal) drum mounted where the radiator should have been. They just filled it with water and didn't care if it boiled out or not. As I recall that thing leaked pretty good and it was usually out in the fields, so having that 25 gal's of water was probably a necessity.
I have added an electric fan from a 1997 Honda to my Model T. With it , I can now drive in any parade without fear of it boiling over. I recommend this solution, as it is much more dependable than a water pump.
James, James, James, look what you started, they almost came to verbal blows aready. Lucky they do not live next door to each other, it could have been physical blows.
lol! My Massey tractor with a 152 Perkens never overheats. Slow, fast, hot day, or pulling hard on a hot day. It uses both thermal siphon and a water pump with a thermostat. The manual says do not run without any of them and that engine will go many thousands of hours with 17 to 1 compression.
Soon I will have the problem of trying to cool with a stock 16 radator Not looking forward that one unless I drive slower, or make something work that the cost can be justified in retirement.
I tried a thermostat in my car after I noticed a MUCH cooler running temp with a brand new Brassworks radiator. I figured it would help reach proper temp much quicker. It must have been defective, as the car overheated several times. I removed the thermostat, and am afraid to try another one.
I run a thermostat in my 22 nothing changes except it comes to runing temp much quicker. If the speed is below 30 mph it stays at 180 as soon as you go much above 40 mph it goes to 200 or above and thats at the cool Oregon coast
Wondering if removeing a nice thick core from a modern radator cutting it down to fit the 16 would be worth the effort? fan belts, and water pumps rob HP on an already low HP engine. An electric fan would help at least at a stop light but looks like 12 volts so guess I go 12 volts on this engine.
I doubt if the thermostat was defective. In a thermosyphon system, an open thermostat probably creates enough of an obstruction to restrict coolant flow enough to cause overheating. That's why if you install a thermostat, you typically need a water pump.
(An easy way to check a thermostat is to put it in a pan of water and, using a thermometer - like a candy thermometer - heat the water and note temperature when the thermostat opens.)
This reminds me of an trick that an old mechanic told me when I was very young. He said that back in the 1930s and 40s to survive driving in the cold winters of Minnesota he would simply put a large washer in the radiator hose. This would restrict the coolant flow so the engine would run hotter and, in turn, the car's heater core would be warmer making the passenger compartment nice and warm. This would be like to adding a second, stuck open, thermostat in the system.
Lets face it, the T is unique in many ways. It was, and remains, different. I like that about it. I have used a thermistat and later removed it.
T with new radiator runs great in all weather with no pump, stat, or even a fan. T owners were, and remain, unique, different, and have opinions. I like my T the way it is.
If all other things were equal (but they're probably not), The added torque of the generator having to make power to run an electric fan would equal the torque of a mechanical fan moving the same amount of air. I'd almost bet it takes more due to the losses of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy and back again, but I could be wrong. I am quite often.
Hal, that's why I have a separate Briggs and Stratton engine driving an alternator so I can run my fan without a drag on the engine. It also powers my air conditioning unit.
If you used a stat to turn the fan on only when the water temperature reached a certain point then HP would not be used some or most of the time. Even a dashboad switch could be used.
"...that's why I have a separate Briggs and Stratton engine driving an alternator so I can run my fan without a drag on the engine. It also powers my air conditioning unit."
You're kidding aren't you????
Well yes and no. I thought I would add some pleasant, though ridiculous BS to this rant. However, Royce Peterson's father, adapted a Model A engine to a Model T transmission and oil pan. This was sold to another Dallas club member. He installed it in a Model T pickup and for reasons on his own carries a separate gas engine driven generator in the bed of the pickup.
O.K. thanks Ted!