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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Ford tools
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 04:00 pm:

After cleaning up some tools and giving them a dose of oil to keep away the rust, I went to the Model T Encyclopedia to see what I could find out.



I gather these are all versions of #1917 even though only one of them has the number on it. First, am I right about the top one also being #1917? If it is, is it the 1911 version?

All of these measure 5/8" on one end. On the other end, they seem to have bent open to varying degrees. Is the bigger end supposed to be 11/16"?




These measure 7/16" & 1/2" and 9/16" & 5/8". I don't find them in any of the parts books illustrations. Can anybody come up with part numbers for them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 04:49 pm:

Steve,
T1917 is the internal band adjusting spanner. It is often bent open like that as people use it as a regular spanner and strain it. It is supposed to be used only to turn the spring loaded nut on the internal band adjusters.

The lower ones look much like those supplied with our Canadian A models.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 06:01 pm:

The two wrenches in second picture are Model A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 09:40 pm:

That explains why I didn't find them in the Model T parts books. I think I'll cheat and carry them with my T tools anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 10:06 pm:

Why not. Uncle Mike has some in his.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Friday, November 25, 2011 - 10:17 pm:

Those Model A tools are really handy to have along. The 9/16 - 5/8 one, being so short, is great for use on the carb nuts & bolts and the gas line pack nut. It works much better than a longer one, since you can get more of a turn with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 01:19 pm:

Today I'll repeat a question and add a new one.

1 Is that top wrench the 1911 version of #1917?

2 Is there a reference that covers Model T tools in more detail than the encyclopedia?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 01:42 pm:

Steve,
The top one, the "fat" one, is the earliest version of the 1917 wrench. I also would like to know the approximate time periods the three different 1917 wrenches were used. BTW those early wrenches are made out of mild steel. You can easily reshape them in a vise. They are nothing compared to the strength of modern hand tools.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 07:54 pm:

Fellows,

Beware when straightening the two lower types of T 1917 wrenches. A vice will work, but it should be done with red heat or they will break. Don't ask how I know!

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial Davis of Veneta, Oregon on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 08:07 pm:

Those cleaned up real nice.

I have an "S" curved wrench that says Ford on it. My grandpa gave me a pile of Ford wrenches years ago and that was one of them. Any idea what year/s and application that one is from/for?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial Davis of Veneta, Oregon on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 08:22 pm:

Rats, just went in search of my Ford-branded wrenches and only found one:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 08:44 pm:

Steve,

I'm not sure there is a more definative work than the bible. I started years ago to do more in depth, and had the typical paradox on running down things Ford...I wound up with over 1/2 dozen DIFFERENT 1917's and about 50 duplicates :-) Had pretty much the same experience in the other tools though...except have yet to find a 'real' screwdriver!

You could always send to the BFM for the T number drawing, I stopped just short of doing that. I did it for the screwdriver and and was pleased with what I got. Have not tried change record for any tools as I don't believe Ford paid to much attention to the tools once released. But someday I may just send for the change records to know for sure.

Why I threw my hands up on 'tools' is the more I dug, the more I became convinced that 'no names' were at times OEM! For each Ford tool I have accumulated (hey at a buck or two or 5 at tops at most antique stores when found)that was forged, I can find a twin brother with the same forging symbol and 'no name'.

So either the maker ran for Ford during the day, and ran for Western Auto at night, who knows...but I have a theory. Since Ford did not have a clue what the next quarter production quantities were going to be, how could they really tell the supplies what to make on a month to month basis?

Imagine, get a wire, need 100,000 more next delivery cycle. I know what I'd do if I were the forge! Sure I can cover the quantity for you but they have to be less logo as I run them all the time! I still can't fathom tho' why Ford would allow both script and non-script to be run by the suppliers...time shows no clues as to that. The whole purpose of scripting was to scream 'ceritifed Ford part' Someday I may just look under the scope and see if the Ford script is the result of a double strike/restrike...that would be an answer :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. Portales, New Mexico on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 09:04 pm:

George,

Interesting research and observation.

I would suspect that you have quite a collection. So are you still in search of that "real" screw driver?

Thanks for sharing.

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 09:48 pm:

Orlando,

Yes...someday I will find a 'real' screwdriver that matches the print in every way. I take nothing against those that claim to have them, but...I have yet to find one that matches the print exactly without showing evidence of being 'fixed'.

This also goes back to my thought that Ford just went and found a good tool, decided it met Ford wishes, and then bought a slew from the vendor, adding script when necessary. The Drafting Department made a drawing from the sample supplied...moreso for reference...and jokingly on the screwdriver I think they drew the handle from one guy and the blade from another and joked themselves....either will do! :-):-)

But if I find a 'real' one, exact to the print and no signs of being repaired/helped/fixed or otherwise...then to me it is the Holy Grail 'find'. Maybe I'll get lucky and an unmolested pair of pliers will be next to it in a box...lol. the pliers are another story. Find a pair in the same box? That happens, I'm cleaning out the kids inheritance and buying power-balls that very day! :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. Portales, New Mexico on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 10:23 pm:

George,

I wish you the very best with locating that screw driver and pair of pliers. I'm sure you will.

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 11:07 pm:

I have a couple of pliers, a couple of monkey wrenches, and one screwdriver. But I don't know if it's kosher. The #2335 spark plug/head bolt wrenches seem pretty plentiful. I have about a half dozen of those. The #1917 transmission band wrench seems the most common. I have over a dozen, some of them pretty good. I have a few jacks, but they don't match the one shown in the T parts book, so I'm guessing they're Model A. They look like a smaller version of the TT jack. Still looking for a lot of the other tools.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, November 26, 2011 - 11:21 pm:

Danial, I have the same wrench. I doesn't match anything in the Model T books, so I'm guessing Model A or later. Ditto the S shaped wrenches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial Davis of Veneta, Oregon on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 12:34 am:

It's been a long day today (lots of driving) but tomorrow, I'll spend some more time looking for those other wrenches. If I get real ambitious, I'll plug in Grandpa's pedestal grinder/wire abrader he gave me years ago and clean 'em up a bit for the photos.

I have very few, but I dig old tools. To hold a hand tool is to hold history. Imagine the stories any given wrench could tell; the cars it worked on - the people who turned it on the bolt or nut. Fascinating to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 11:08 am:

Found a number of pliers over the years but have never once come across the screw driver. Have a couple of wannabe's but no cigar (yet).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 01:29 pm:

I have been trying to organize the mess of stuff I have. I thought I had one good size old wood handled screwdriver, I have so far found four of them. Other than a ford script, what would make the driver a correct one?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 06:59 pm:

Wayne

The correct wood handled screw drive has a square shank, 4" or 5" approx length, that shank runs thru to the exposed end of the wood handle and is peened over making a round metal end exposed on the end the wood handle. A metal ferrule in on the shank side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 07:51 pm:

I have three in my collection now. Bought one at a flea Mkt for 50 cents,with the handle wraped in electiical tape. I figured it was broken,but was real suprised it was mint when I took the tape off. None of them have any markings on them The only Ford script screwdriver I've seen was from the mid 30's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 09:41 pm:





This has the wood handle and the steel end cap, but I don't know if it's a #1902 screwdriver. The top row of letters says TOOL STEEL USA. All I can make out of the lower row is C?EA??? The length is 93/8".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 10:14 pm:

The one I have looks very much like the lower one in Dan's photo. Am I to understand that they don't say Ford on them? That's what I've been hunting for. Paid $2.00 for the one I have but don't see a mark any where. The shaft does go thru the wood handle but isn't peened over as in Steve's pic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 10:21 pm:

All the original Ford screwdrivers I've looked at/bought do not have the shaft peened over at the top.

The screwdriver in Steve's photo doesn't look like a Ford tool to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 10:39 pm:

Steve: The first band wrench you pictured was used through 1913, when the new style was introduced. The 1914 version was used at least until 1918, but I don't know for sure. That screwdriver you posted is not correct for a Model T. They used to be all over the place, but as of late, they don't seem to show up as often as they used to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 11:08 pm:

Dan's top example is the one closest to the orignal drawing, if not an actual match...there was no mushroom head,the square shank just matched the wood arch..

But as I've mentioned and don't wish to harp on too much...I am also somewhat personally convinced there was also OEM tool box kit to tool box kit variety as to what was actually inside.

'Box'? is this the first anyone has heard of 'box'? OK, I'll share...the original kits came loose in a corrugated box. Somewhere I've seen the T-number for it...I've actually seen the drawing of it...but by the time I thought about actually remaking them since I have the ability to not only match the original fluting height/pitch which has been obsolete now for about 50 years, I can glue them up with silicate of soda glue, and not the current flour and water glues used for bio-degrading.

Unfortunatly, I forgot just who it was I know who has it, and of the locals who would have been 'the one' the whole group can't remember either. Someday I'll find who, or come across it again! :-)

Unca Jack...I'd not question you have a proper era screwdriver in your collection...you would be my hero more than you already are if you had the right real and unaltered pliers to go with it :-) :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, November 27, 2011 - 11:30 pm:

Unfortunately I have never seen a pair of pliers without the screwdriver tip on them.(if they exist?) I have several of the kind that do. I talked to a guy in Alaska one night who said he had a rusty pair. (I told him I'd set up all night and watch them if they were mine!) (G)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 08:37 am:

The lower screwdriver in Dan's photo is for the Model A. It may also be for the later Model T and Fordson tractors. It is my understanding that they were all unmarked. Those with markings were dealer or factory tools?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 09:49 am:

George and Charles

Here is the other end of the photo I posted, the pictures aren't mine, I copied them off a forum.

Was wrong on the 'round' end peened over. That square shank of the Model T type screwdriver is just ended at the end of the wood.

Was told to always look for square shank screwdriver, wood handle, and with sq. metal shank end showing, that would be likely a Ford screwdriver you could show in your factory tool kit display and not lose points in judging.



Screwdriver on right is Model T type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 12:55 pm:

Are these what you've been looking for, Uncle Jack?

pliers

They are part of the tool kit I put together for the Coupelet I'm building. It has the "official" Mark Cameron tool roll, of course. :-)

kit


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 01:18 pm:

Danial's wrench is a mid 1930s Ford V8 wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 01:26 pm:

Mike,find me a pair of those pliers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 03:27 pm:

Danial's wrench has an O1A part number- that didn't come about until 1940.

From my understanding, those wrenches were also supplied with Ford tractors of the period too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 03:37 pm:



OK, class, before I run off to town to pay bills and shop, here's today's tool quiz. It's on the #1387 adjustable wrench. Of the half dozen similar wrenches I have, two have the Ford logo. I'm guessing that the top one, measuring 8", is the actual #1387, that the middle one with the little square appendage on the end of the handle and measuring 95/16" is Model A, and the last one labeled only "9 IN AUTO" is a generic aftermarket wrench. Am I guessing right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eddy Lee Emerson on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 04:03 pm:

Steve, It is my understanding that the square end on your adjustable wrench is for checking the grease in the rear end of 26-27 T's. Ed Emerson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 04:33 pm:

Mike

Wow! Love that tool roll and the tools you have for your '15 in progress.....gonna show very nice!


Steve

The monkey wrench with the sq end was calendar year '26 when change to drain plug on the Improved Car. Was also used on the later Model A.

Not a member, but this group if you join could probably answer a bunch of Model T tool questions.

http://www.fordtoolcollector.org/index.asp


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 05:24 pm:

Dan,I am one of the founding members (#11 membership number)of the ford tool collectors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 05:31 pm:

Hey Jack, how much of a Z collection do you have? I loaned a listing I made back in the 80s from all the T parts books to a friend that is a tool collector today. You could cover a big wall with Z tools!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 05:35 pm:

Jack

Now I know who to call!
Thanks

Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 06:04 pm:

I don't have them all,no one ever will as there are to many of them. I have 300-400 all different shop tools.I have some I have never found a reference to. They are Ford script,I just can't find them listed any where. If you're in our area,stop and see them. In a good year I may find one or two I don't have. Do have some extras,if you're collecting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 09:00 pm:

Unc -- These non-screwdriver pliers I have are the only script ones I've seen. Bought them on ebay a few years back. They are Ford script, and note the different shape of the jaws -- a little more pointed than the later ones. I've seen some other script ones with the pointy-nose jaws, but they had the screwdriver handle. You'd think there would be lots of them around, but they seem to be pretty scarce. It may be that most of the early ones didn't have the Ford name on them, so nobody knows they are Ford pliers. The shape of the jaws should indicate that they are the same ones though. I guess there's nothing in the Archives about them, or someone would know more about them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:09 pm:

Actually Mike, I think you might have hit the nail squarely on the head. Because what we 'look' for is simply NOT that shape :-) D'uh.

I've never sent for the actual drawing, just figured I'd hope to eventually find something that looked like the later pliers without the tip...and to know enough about the logo differences to distinguish between late v-8 pliers and early T pliers. Learn something new every day on this forum :-)

Stands to reason that for every real screwdriver there SHOULD be a pair of pliers, give or take a few. But as Uncle Jack points out, rare as Hen's teeth to find...maybe we are all mentally looking for the wrong thing :-) Not sure the archive drawing would help either as my guess since the number is the same, all we'd find is the late version as somehow total revisions were lost in time on 'same part number' and the change cards became a shorthand of what changed, sometimes too shorthand.

I KNOW Ford did things different, but standard industrial practice of the time for a complete change as to 'shape', even though the next version was backwards compatible, usually called for a black tape to be applied to the back side of an original vellum...and a notation added to the front such as 'no longer used, see new drawing same number' and the original would have just been stashed numerically in remote storage. Maybe someday, someone might stumble onto microfilm with long black stripes on them :-)

Just because something 'looks like' but doesn't have Script...I wouldn't toss it aside as generic or junk. As mentioned earlier...I do think vendors had both script and non-script versions and handled varying volume accordingly.

Further, of the few drawings I have sent for, the first date on the actual drawings appear to be 1913, never thought to try the record of change cards to see if the cards go back further since tools were standard from the beginning and maybe they just got around to an actual drawing later. When or when not Script started on tools is also a good question. Someday I'll bite and send for the remaining drawings and a complete set of record cards, but somehow feel that still won't be a complete definitive answer...

BTW...the screwdriver itself was NOT obsoleted until Oct. 1920 yet the drawing shows applicable for the 21 model year. A bit of a paradox...probably the cut off date for when the tipped pliers came into being.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:12 pm:

Steve,

To answer your question on the screwdriver, the spec on the drawing for the overall length was 8-3/4...but again, I'm not sure QC was all that picky.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. Portales, New Mexico on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 10:28 pm:

This has been a great thread. Makes me want to start my own collection.

Questions:

On the pliers, if the pliers with the screw driver end isn't part of the tool kit, then where did it come from and why are so many around?


Question for George,

I can't believe you forgot who has the "box". Talk about the holy grail, and you let it slip from your memory!


Question for Steve,

I can't figure out how you shot the photo of your adjustable wrenches. They look as though they're floating in thin air.


Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 11:10 pm:

Olando,

The original tool kit that has the tipped screwdriver end was supplied in tool kits that did NOT have a screwdriver...Definately from 22 and after, maybe on the 21's as per above paradox. There is loose understanding that actual dates may be +/- those contained on the drawings, by a month or so.

Let me guess...you're a younger guy, eh Ortega? Wait until you're in your 60's then...wierd stuff just happens...and it's easier to just accept it...lol

Tool collecting can be fun...the published parts list are generally correct as to T # pictures...there is a listing of 3-Z tools which would have been Ford shop tools somewhere, maybe Bruce book. The beauty of it is when you find them in boxes and under tables at normal places they can usually be had for a buck or two, think 10 is the most I've paid for anything and it was 'mint', but if you decide to hawk places like Hershey or Chickasa...that number always seems to be multiplied by a factor of 10...lol <wink>.

I'll let Steve answer your last, but my guess is that Steve still uses a good old single reflex camera with manual stops, and something they use to call film.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 11:56 pm:

George, I have been collecting Ford shop tools for 47 years and I can tell you some of them (besides being scarce,) are darn expensive.26-27 wire wheel pullers bring $100 or more,pullers are all $40-50 and up.Some of the speed wrenches are quite salty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 12:26 am:

Actually, these pictures are digital. I use film for shots I want to last for decades, but for instant results like this digital will have to do. I used the same method for the top pictures and the monkey wrenches. Lay a piece of window glass across a couple of sawhorses, put your subject on the glass, and shoot with the camera high and zoomed in on the subject. In telephoto mode, focusing on the subject throws the background out of focus. I shot these under a carport so the glass wouldn't reflect the sky and the wrenches would get diffuse lighting. So that's how that works.

Bedtime. Tomorrow: more tools.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 10:56 am:

I have just gone through all the back issues of the NAFTCO newsletter, "Ford Tool Times", looking for info on Mike Walker's pliers. There is no direct article, but this shape appears to be of V8 and Ford Tractor vintage. There is one drawing of this shape that states is was adopted in Nov. 1931, but is not commonly seen until about 1935. But, as Bill O'Reilly states, " I may be wrong".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 12:43 pm:

I have an original Ford parts book for 1913 in front of me. The pliers have the screwdriver end on one side, even though the screwdriver is pictured. It is my belief the only tool included in the set for 1913 and earlier that had a FORD script is the band wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 12:47 pm:

The screwdriver that Steve Jelf posted is a Great Neck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 12:57 pm:

Larry

Perhaps, but Parts Book drawings might not be real accurate.

Here is close up from Sept 1912 Price List.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 01:36 pm:

mike, can we see a view of the other side of those pliers? ................it's been a funny year... about 4 months ago i bought a very late model tire pump that i'd never seen before , and just last weekend bought a single barrel bridgeport with a very small raised "ford" script on the bottom underside. i'll post pics of that one on the previous tire pump thread. tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren. (Australia) on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 02:52 pm:

Speaking of tire pumps Tim, just checking the 1916 books on tools, the USA book listed as Special Tools, have listed a 2 barrel pump #2338 and the Brittish Empire book lists as Repair tools but no pump at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 03:55 pm:

Charles -- We may all be wrong, for that matter. I don't think any of us knows what is what when it comes to a lot of this early stuff. The pliers I have may have been made later, rather than earlier. Or it may be that the different shapes of the jaws are due to different companies making them, and it has nothing to do with the date they were made.

Dan -- I can't tell whether your parts book pic shows script on the pliers or not, but the pic definitely is of pliers with the more rounded jaws. Again, the difference might be due to the manufacturer, not the vintage.

Tim -- Certainly. Here are pics of both sides, which are identical in their markings:

pliers

p2

Both halves have the Ford script, and the maker's logo is a T above a W, both inside a circle. I immediately thought of Transue-Williams, but their logo we're accustomed to seeing on things like front axles is different. The T is superimposed upon the W, not above it, and there is no circle.

T-W

There is also a 5 on each half of the pliers. Maybe one of our tool gurus can shed light on the T & the W in the circle logo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 04:23 pm:

Mike

Close inspection of the Sept 1912 Price List book just doesn't show any script or marks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 04:54 pm:

Mike, If this is your logo, it is T Williams.




Here's what Alloy Artifacts has to say about T Williams


"T. Williams Company (England)
The T. Williams Company is a British maker of wrenches and other forged tools, most frequently found as the "Superslim" brand. Currently we don't have any additional information on the company, but hope to expand this section in the future.

Tools made by T. Williams are generally marked with a forged-in logo showing a "T/W" in a circle."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 05:32 pm:

Mike these are eBay pliers that look very much like yours. Could your Made on England have been buffed off?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 05:55 pm:

John,
Is the "Made in England" on both sides?
Charlie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 06:08 pm:

Charlie, I don't know. There is only one picture of it. It also appears to have the EnFo Ford, (English Ford),logo on it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Enfo-Ford-SlipJoint-Pliers-Car-Tractor-Fordson-/ 320695787820?pt=UK_Car_Parts_Vehicles_Automobila_ET&hash=item4aaaf5612c


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 09:25 pm:

A screwdriver recently sold on ebay for $71.35.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360401945053?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m142 3.l2648


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 09:51 pm:

John -- Those do look very similar to the ones I have. I suppose that some logo could have been removed from it, but I don't know for sure. What else do you know about the English ones (date, application, etc.)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 12:11 am:

I was going to have a picture of more tools today, but some of them are still derusting. While we're waiting I'll comment on the 1912 price list picture. It looks to me like the pliers have the screwdriver tip. But the #1902 screwdriver is there too. Apparently Ford realized that a real screwdriver would be easier to use than the pliers handle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 01:04 am:

Rick,

I'd say good call on the screwdriver, sounds as pure dimensionally as possible with a few small liberties I could chalk up to production variances and I have the T drawing!

Print the ebay listing and save it, that's what you are looking for. Handle should be somewhat ribbed, 8 ribs to match the drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 12:44 pm:

One definite and three maybes? Or -"All close enough for government work"?

sc1

sc2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 03:39 pm:

Mike I wasn't able to find out much about the T Williams Co. It seem they were an old tool manufacturer that at some point merged or sold out to Smith Francis Tool Co. UK. They also made tools for other British cars such as Triumph. I wasn't able to find English Ford (Anglia) pliers but here are some T Williams, Triumph TR3 pliers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 08:34 pm:

tire pump 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 08:35 pm:

tire pump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 08:36 pm:

tire pump 3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim morsher on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 11:26 pm:

thanks for the pics of the pliers, mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Wednesday, November 30, 2011 - 11:53 pm:

Charles,

I'd tend to say the lowest one shown is the real deal it we are holding to the drawing as being a 'spec'...

I'd tend to say the top 3 are the real deal if we go by the 'illustrators' manual page...

I'd tend to say that at least three and possibly all 4 are not just close enough, but would also have probably been possible :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 12:10 am:

There was a thread earlier this year where somebody posted a list of tool manufacturers and their trademarks. My search failed. Can one of you better searchers find it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 12:47 am:

Steve, I think this is the site.

http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/index.html


To find the logos, scroll down this page toward the bottom.

http://home.comcast.net/~alloy-artifacts/trademarks-and-logos.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 01:04 am:

Yes! That's the one I was thinking of. Many thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 08:16 am:

RE: the screwdrivers: I have looked through a lot of screwdrivers in antique shops and flea markets. Square shank through the handle are NOT common!
I bought all 4 at different times and places several years ago. I didn't always have the drawing with me and felt they were early T when I bought them. Now that I have handled them and compared them all I agree the only one correct as per the spec drawing is the lowest one. But I would guess that the other three would "pass", especially if inserted in a tool roll! The ones that go for big bucks on ebay are not all exactly like the drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 09:41 am:

I'm kind of a newbie at this (especially the tool end) and I know some of you guy kinda specialize in tools.

I wonder if anyone could post a picture showing all the tools typically supplied with the car from the factory. Somewhere arround 1915 would help the most.

Thanks in advance

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Driscoll on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 09:53 am:

Charles,
I think all four of the screwdrivers in your picture came with a Model T. I would bet most screwdrivers did not match that drawing exactly. None of those four, nor any I have ever seen, have thier handles fluted as deeply as the drawing. Possibly NO scredrivers looked like the drawing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 12:34 pm:

Bud, I think Mike Walker's pictures posted above on Monday are it.

Well, at last I got enough more tools cleaned up to have their portraits made. First up is the #2335 spark plug/head bolt wrench. The head bolt end is 5/8" and the spark plug end is 15/16". I should note that all my information is from the encyclopedia and from observation. My knowledge beyond that is so close to zero it's frozen solid.


At the top is the version that appears in the 1915-1917 illustration. It's also in the 1917-1920 illustration. It and the #1917 band wrench are the only tool kit items I see on the 1917-1920 page. All the others shown there are Z tools.

Second is the #2335 that appears in the list for 1925 and later. Nothing is shown in the encyclopedia for 1921-1924. Maybe somebody has that and can post it. This version of the wrench is so plentiful that I would guess it started in 1921.

Third is the TT version, #TT-5893. The extra hole is 3/4".

The last wrench is a later one, not from the T era. I'm guessing V-8, but somebody who actually knows can tell us who don't. The sizes on this one are 3/4" and 1
1/16".


A side view of the same wrenches.


And here are the back sides. The 1915-1920(?) wrench bears the (factory?) number T-5893 and the trademark of the manufacturer, Moore.

The second one is also marked T-5893. It has no manufacturer's trademark.

The TT wrench has no number on it, but bears the Moore trademark.

The last wrench is marked with: Ford U.S.A.-M-40-17017.

More later. I need to go get some work done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 01:01 pm:

Steve, the top wrench came out in 1914. I agree the next style was used in '25, but when was the change over? I like all the record of changes data that the archives has, but being in California, the research is expensive! If anyone knows when this change was made, post it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 01, 2011 - 08:49 pm:

OK, I have a fire in the fireplace, Daisy is snoozing in her chair after a hard day of chasing the cats, and I have time to post a couple more pictures.


Here are some pliers that all have the screwdriver handle. The first one has the Ford logo and no other markings. Note the squared-off nose. Except for markings, the next two are identical, down to the number of teeth. The one in the middle has the Ford logo and the McKaig-Hatch trademark. The bottom one has the McKaig-Hatch mark, but no ford. Unlike the others, it also has the number 31 on one handle and 32 on the other. I'll leave it to somebody more knowledgeable to comment on what this all means.


Here's the other side of the same tools.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 11:20 am:

Steve: You are quite the photographer! Those pictures are very nice. The pliers I used for my article are not as common as what you have pictured. They are made by Herbrand, and have a double lined Ford script. I doubt if Ford was putting the Ford script on any tools during the brass era, except the band wrench. Maybe someday someone will find a brass T with the original tools still in the tool roll under the seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Friday, December 02, 2011 - 12:05 pm:

Larry, thanks. I can think of one other. The 1914-1920(?) #2335 wrench has the Ford logo. Granted, 1914-1915 is late brass era. I don't know about Ford logos on anything except the band wrench before 1914, as that's the only other brass era Ford tool I have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 08:40 pm:

Charles,

I knew I had the Record of Changes card for the screwdriver, but when I answered the other day I was at work and as some know thats a 12K mile commute :-)

I looked just now and the drawing you have represents the screwdriver as it existed in 1920 (the 1920 revision) Of curious note and why the change records usually are more confusing than revealing...the 1920 revision also states changed specification to show the steel ferrule and to show the rivet going all the way through.

Read literally, this could imply a paradox to earlier versions being different. Guess we'll never really know...my first educated guess just looking at the text on the card is there is an equal chance that during 1919-20, they were getting a bunch of screwdrivers that had sloppy ferrules, and nails as opposed to rivets. Have to remember during the time, the apprentices did all of the revisions, and an apprentice will usually be light on words, whereas a full engineer would probably include a full paragraph :-):-) So...just an update on the thread as to the screwdriver.

I've always been curious as to numbers included on the change cards that appear random and meaningless yet a unique number for each 'revision'. My guess is that Ford had a system of Engineering Change Requests also, yet I have never heard of them surfacing...as was common in the time, a change request would have come from the originating department, and would have contained the 'why'


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Sunday, December 04, 2011 - 09:18 pm:

The M-40 wrench is a 1932-1937 Ford Flathead spark plug wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:28 pm:

Here's another category of Ford tools. A Model A wrench and this were in a $3 box of stuff I got at an auction yesterday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:36 pm:

Good buy and NICE FIND.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:51 pm:

Jack, Didn't Fordson even have their own pliers? I believe I saw some once and it seems like they were longer than the Ford pliers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles W. Little, South Paris, Maine on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 05:34 pm:

Just for fun:

From Don Trace's post above, 1912 Parts Book:
11

On the left: With a pair of unmarked pliers and the screwdriver closest to the factory spec. drawing:

On the right: With a different screwdriver and a pair of Ford marked pliers with the marking "inscribed" rather than raised:

222 333


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 12:49 pm:

Here are some shots of my Fordson Tool collection. From top to bottom:
1. Adjustable wrench
2 and 3. Combination rear hub bolt wrench and pry bar (2 piece).
4. Hub Cap, Transmission oil cap and Water fill cap for the water bath air cleaner wrench.
5. Pliers
6. Spark plug/ head bolt wrench
7. Screwdriver
8. 9/16" / 5/8" combination wrench
10. 11/16" / 3/4" combination wrench

All are "FORDSON" scripted. It took me several years to find the screwdriver and pliers.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 10:14 pm:

The Fordson Screwdriver is an unusual item. I have only ever seen one other scripted. I have seen a couple non scripted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 10:24 pm:

Nice find there Mike. Those darn things bring $80 and up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 12:07 am:

Great looking set of Tools Mike. Nice close up pictures. Thanks for posting them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 12:30 am:

All of the tools fit into the Fordson tool box that was mounted under the steering column in front of the seat. I think that the pliers and screwdriver got used for a lot of things on the farm and ended up getting lost. They just don't show up very often. I found my screwdriver at a flea market in a box of old tools. The box was marked $1 for choice.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 12:35 am:

I've seen several of those neat little tool boxes but not the tools that went inside them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren W. Mortensen on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 08:05 am:

As you said Mike, those tools got used up or lost. We had toolboxes from binders and other horse-drawn machinery of that sort mounted on our tractors. There's a Fordson screwdriver floating around here somewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 11:10 am:

I also had trouble finding the 2 piece pry bar. The Hub Bolt part shows up every now and then but the pry bar is harder to find. The pry bar was used to pry the hub and the wheel apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 01:56 am:

Hello Mike,

Great set of Fordson Tools. I have had these two for years . I have often wondered what the Snail ( Trade Mark ) stood for.
Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 06:13 pm:

John - The snail trade mark is interesting. I have not seen that before. I have no idea who the maker is.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 07:48 pm:

Thank you Mike. The snail is the only indication of a brand name there is on the wrench. Someone here may come up with an answer.

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 08:45 pm:

John P, That looks like the Thomas Smith & Sons (England), Speeding-Snail logo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 09:56 pm:

Hello John,

I did wonder if it may have been an English brand.
A lot of English ( Stuff ) can be found here in Australia because of the connection with the two Countries. I have just Googled the name and all the information confirms that the wrench was made by them.
Thank you for your help. Very much appreciated.
Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:39 pm:

I took a picture of some carburetor flange tools the other day. Don' know why I took it but here they are the sort one is one I made by cutting off a spark plug wrench and grinding down the socket.

flange tools


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:40 pm:

I took a picture of some carburetor flange tools the other day. Don' know why I took it but here they are the short one is one I made by cutting off a spark plug wrench and grinding down the socket.

flange tools


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:42 pm:

The red one is the ex spark plug wrench above. On some carbs it works better than the ones manufactured for that perpose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Solomonson on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 02:20 pm:

My father collected Ford tools and when he died they ended up in my garage. I was amazed by all the variations and different logos. Here are photos of 5 different T-1917 wrenches with the part number. I have 8 more different wrenches like this without the T-1917 part number. I have done some research and have figured out the manufacturers except for the one with the letter "S" inside the letter "D". Anybody know which tool company made that one?

Ford.T1917.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 04:40 pm:

Guys this is a fun thread. But there's a hidden tip in there for people like me, who want tools to use on their T's but need another collection like they need a hole in the head. I wanted to get the special Z tools for use in the engine/trans/rear end because it would be neat to use the "real" tools and also because they might actually work a little better. The bent flat wrench to get the flywheel bolts is a good example.

Anyway, I accidentally discovered that non-script tools can sometimes be otherwise identical and much cheaper especially when found on Tbay. I was able to snag a wrench for the square headed main bolts for $5 and I think it was because it didn't have the FORD script. Sure would be nice to have that, but there's no doubt in my mind that 90 years ago a greasemonkey was using that wrench to fix Model T's.

Mike, sorry if it's been posted elsewhere, but could you give us the contact info for the person making those tool rolls? Thanks!

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 06:26 pm:

Craig -- Mark Cameron makes and sells them. Here's a link to his website:

http://www.brassera.com/index.htm

Click on "Products" at the left, then "Tool rolls".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman Hays, KS on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 08:13 pm:

Mike V, funny story. Just 10 minutes ago I was reading all the posts from the last week and I see your large picture. There in the middle is the large hex wrench, boy that looks like something I have hanging in my front garage, looks like a wrench I picked up last year for a buck at an auction thinking that would work good on my table saw blade nut. I get it home and its an 1/8 inch to big, so I hang it up and think I'll sell it at a garage sale later some time. So I see your pic, think that looks like something I have hanging up here at the house and so I retrieve it from it's nail and bring it in. Rub some rust off and faintly see the letters Fordson, and some numbers. I was going to ask you what size the nut the wrench fit's but I now I have another Fordson wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 09:37 pm:

Jerome - That's great! On another subject my Dad and his family were all from that post rock country near you. La Crosse, My great grandmother ran the post rock museum in La Crosse until about 1990.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome R. Hoffman Hays, KS on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 09:39 pm:

Then he would have been the go to guy when we had a tour ther in I think 88.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 10:12 pm:

Any theories on why the T-1917 band wrench is so plentiful? I have seventeen that I know of, maybe more, but only nine 2335 plug/headbolt wrenches, and none of a lot of others. Did they make a lot more of those because people kept bending them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 10:32 pm:

Steve you and I must be looking in different places. I would think that the spark plug- headbolt wrench wouhld be more common. I have even seen some identicaly shaped ones marked Western Auto.
Does any one have a picture of the early spark plug socket wrench? We should talk about that.
I have about a dozen Walden wrenches for the main bearing bolts.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 12:30 am:

The early plug wrench is #1904, starting in January 1911, but the earliest picture of it in the parts catalogues is in the 1912-1914 illustration. In May 1912 its number was changed to #2178, and in October 1913 it was replaced by the new #2335 combination.


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