So in between rounds of PAC MAN and DONKEY KONG, I proceeded with the lowering brackets and reached the 85 per cent point today. Still have to ad some tabs, finish welding, and a little finesse grinding. Then we cant continue on...
There was a dozen clamps, measurements and assemblies all in tune before I made the move. The entire job landed me within 1/32". Pretty fair I'd say. That include up-down, side-side, and end to end, the end! ws
All the measuring didnt mean diddly if the stuff doesnt bolt together. Had the pan bolted down along with the 4th main and ball cap. Yes, you are correct, the ball cap is bolted up WITHOUT the incorrect second gasket! All this stuff just kinda snaopped together. Really starting to appreciate the underslung look! Total drop is 5 inches front and back. ws
She's looking good Bill. Thanks for the pic's.
So, what's the problem? You never seem to appear to state the problem. What's the problem? 1/32" of an inch alignment with the rear of the crankcase? (You provide a photo of the crankase in position). Even with an alignment jig for the crankcase, one might still have an alignment problem of 1/32", perhaps. By the way, what is the tolerance (percent/distance of error) of a KW Wilson crankcase alignment jig/table/platform? Does use of such a jig guarantee absolute perfect alignment? Proably not.
We all understand that the entire Model T power plant (engine and magneto) and power delivery sysem (transmission and rear end) had inherent design flaws, because alignment of the crankshaft and crankcase cover (oil pan) directly tied to their alignment with the flywheel and the transmission parts. So, what's your problem, if it has nothing to do with the above?
Max?????? Bill isn't talking about any problem that I can see, just keeping us updated on his progress. Dave
Aw shucks...I guess nobody really reads my stuff... oh well. When I tore the engine down, I tight wired the pan and its perfect +/- 1/64 Thats damn near perfect. Ive rebuilt a dozen or so motors and have never seen a pan jig in real life. Its a gosh darn L4 that spins up at 2500 rpm, keep that in perspective would you?
The other 1/32 reference is on overall frame numbers. No, I dont have a frame jig either, but I do have a damn good Stanley tape measure LOL...Learned how to read that in 6th grade and then went on to spend 30 years as a steam turbine overhaul engineer. After extending and lowering the front axle 5 inches and dropping the back another 5 inches, ALL the original numbers like radiator mount holes to rear body mount holes' centers all came in within that 1/32. Sure hope I can set the land speed record without dog tracking. I think at 35 mph around town it will be hunky dory.
The reference to the pan install was to keep an accurate rate of caster on the rear axle, Even tho it should be ZERO, once it was free floating on the disconnected cross member it was anyones guess. Thats where "it all snapped together" came from. The entire alignment is as good as Hank wanted it... its good enuff for me!
Hows that motor coming along Dave? And David, I like that TT chassis! I am doubling up the running board brackets on mine like the truck has with a short 1 foot long board for the speedster.
Lastly, I need to pull 3 leaves out of that rear spring. Its too tall AND too stiff. I need to keep the lower leaf U clamps so the top three should go? It looks really high in the pics too. Is it atruck spring maybe??
So now we are taking off in the a.m. for Chicago to hopefully sell my 58 foot Hatteras. Gotta finace this project haha!! ws
Makes ya wonder dont it??????
I love updates on T projects!!! Thanks!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Bill, we need more pictures of the front part of the frame.
That's great way to lower the rear but can you explain the very first picture?
Hey Aaron... read up on this for now. Just got back after a 400 mile spin from Two Rivers to Chicago and back, and need to water the dogs. Ill elaborate later. Maybe tomorrow. BTW... TR is about 80 miles above Milwaukee! ws
The first pic was the corner(s) after the gusset removal. I took a million measurements before removing these to keep the geometry correct.
The front axle was mounted in a fabbed channel that was bolted (accurately!) to the frame rails with pretty much pre-existing holes. The weight of the front is carried down on the new cross member and the back being dog legged now carries that end in shear. Wanted to keep strength and flexability. Seems to have worked out well.
I do need to cut the lower wishbone mounts off and fab up some frame mounted struts with turnbuckle style tie rods and ends for some caster adjustment. Never liked that oil pan mount anyway! ws
So the axle was hung by the chimney with care... oops! This shows the new X member bolted to the rails, and the spring retainer mounted with a bracket thats a tad barbaric, but painted up and looks OK. ws
But the oilpan wishbone mount has a better roll center or something.
Looks good Bill! I see you are from Two Rivers. When I was a kid, we used to go salmon fishing there when they had a "snagging" Season. I used to go with my Grandpa and Dad and we would have to go in the middle of the night and sit on the bank of the river to get a spot. I can still hear my Grandpa yell "FISH ON" and everyone else would reel in until the fish was on shore.
That seems like eon's ago. We would also stay at the "lighthouse INN" motel and get smoked salmon at the fish shop down by the bridge. I also was privledged to shop at the Dime Store Down town (I think it was called Evan's) and I can remember the basement was FULL of Toys! Oh Yes and the Museum with the Submarine, what wonderful times those were! Please tell me these places are still there!???
Sorry to get off topic, but the memories came flooding in and I now have added a location to take my family back to this next summer!
Id agree Kep, that is if the roads today were like the dirt trails of days past. There was a lot of twisting and turning in the chassis and every ounce of flex helped. Id guess the roughest terrain Ill encounter is the neighbors driveway to his farm, about a 1/8 mile gravel driveway.
Paul... TR is still the best kept secret on the planet! Population is now a whopping 12,000. Ive lotsa family up this way and we decided to get outa Chicago upon retiring. Spent 57 years there and finally had it up to the radiator neck with thugs and traffic. We went to Chicago yesterday and didnt even lock the house so the neighbor could come by and let the dog out. Nice. Crime here is a parking ticket for overniigt street parking after Dec 1.
Snagging was outlawed in the 80s but lake fishing is still BIG! Susie Q fish market is still there as is the LHI hotel. Schroeders dept store is still the landmark at 4 stories tall and Phil Roerhers greasy spoon is still open... he's about 75 now! The museum/USS COBIA in Manitowoc is still a MUST SEE. There was an addition built that houses a 3 story tall steam ship engine... MASSIVE! Ill continue in a while; just had a 4 am cup-o-mud and gotta go finish the nap! Man its never been so good to be home! ws
Been wondering if it is possible to lower a car by turning the frame upside down and mounting the front spring in the normal position in the frame only with the oilpan crank hole under the frame rail and front spring perches turned upside down too? The rear spring might need a few tricks like reversing the leaf order ...Or it might just become really impractical.
What will you do on the wishbone? Will the sides be extended and heated and bent to meet the axle? Also will moving the front end forward change the draglink hookup to the tie rod and if it does how do you compensate for it.. I like the looks of what you have done.
One other thing that others may know, when you lower the frame 5 inches, it changes the angle of the drive shaft thru the u-joint. Does this make a difference and make the U-joint run at too shallow an angle to cause it to wear out quicker? Thanks, Dennis
I'd say less angle for the u-joint means less power loss and less wear.
Back in the day... I was a draftsman for a truck builder (Hendrickson) and did a lot of drive line drawing. The key issue is "Intentional Mis-Alignment" and thats usually between 5 and 12 degrees. This causes the joint to run "loaded" and not rattle. CV joints "Constant Velocity" causes both joints in the yoke to run at a constant speed... I.E. not speed up the bearing velocity as the joint opens and closes. Hmmm.
I think those dinosaur knuckles will do fine at 35 mph. Opinions?? The other issue is the wishbone change. Ive been following these school kids and their project and it seems like an easy Old School build. Maybe a litle fine tuning but otherwise easy and affordable. ws
Bill - You and I have something in common (besides being thankful to get out of Chicago). In another life, I was a detail draftsman for International Harvester for several years, and altho' I'm not, never was, and never will be an engineer, I did learn a few things from some of the engineers that I worked for at IH.
You and Dennis Brown bring up a good (and interesting) point. I don't remember specific numbers and limits, however I do remember that IH engineers always maintained at least a minimum angle in drivelines so as to be certain that universal joints would "flex" at least enough to ensure long U-joint life. It was explained to me that those little needle bearings need to roll a bit to keep lubrication distributed in those little bearing cups. In a perfectly straight driveline (which might seem ideal) the little needles just sort of move ever so slightly and continuously in one spot and eventually each one would wear it's own respective groove until the U-joint becomes sloppy enough to eventually fail.
Now then, in my "layman's" way of thinking, when this was explained to me, I immediately thought of my Dad's '51 Pontiac that needed a new front U-joint, EVERY 10,000 miles or so. A drawing I've seen somewhere of a late '40's - early '50's Pontiac straight eight shows the driveshaft to be straight-as-an-arrow in line with the centerline of the crankshaft/transmission output shaft. My immediate thought? Hmmmm,......those IH engineers sure knew what they were talking about, and my uneducated guess is that some Pontiac engineers "goofed"!
Roger Karlsson - All of the above to say that I originally thought like you mentioned, "the less angle for the U-joint means less wear",.......well, nope. Need a bit of angle to keep the needle bearing grease distributed! But wait! No needle bearings in a Model T U-joint! So, maybe with just plain bearing surfaces as in the Model T U-joint, less angle IS better. Hmmmm,......hopefully, somebody a lot smarter than me will comment. (???)
I remember guys in the 50's install ing the engine and trans without the crankshaft and internal transmission parts so they coud sight through everything and get the engine and trans lined up straight with the diferentail pinion.
A book I read recently said that they could not explain why a 2 degree missalignment made the driveshaft run smoother than if it was straight.
The drawing they used was of a Chevy Impala. They suggested to have the trans tailshaft up one degree and the diff pinion down one degree. Or both two degrees.
If you look under cars and trucks with an open drive line you will see many are not straight, most have the engine in the middle but the diff pinion is to one side a couple of inches.
Almost all have the crank and tail shaft on a prallel line with the pinion but the engine and trans higher that the pinionline. Especially trucks.
Most of those BIG WHEEL raised up jobs have the drive coming at great angle out of the trans but then they turn the rear axle assy. to point up at the trans tailshaft. The angles of the driveshaft u-joints are not the same and the truck vibrates like crazy because the rear u-joint does not cancell out the fast-slow-fast-slow motion coming from the front U-joint.
When you have a T with only one u-joint is is smoother to have less drive-line angle.
When a T is loaded with 5 people and luggage, etc. the u-joint is at very little angle.
That is probably why the rear of the engine is lower than the front.
A real low speedster, The Black Widow, had 2 inch blocks under the rear motor mount arms on the frame. I supposed to keep the u-joint up high enough so it didn't get an excessive angle from the engine being too low.
I'm learning lots here - Thanks Bill, Harold & Aaron. Don't think 5" lowering will cause any problem with the u-joint on a T, though.
Haven't seen the Black widow, but radical lowering gets the drain plug area of the oil pan dangerously close to the ground - the raising of the rear end of the engine may have had more to do with ground clearence than u-joint angle anxiety?
I can't tell for sure in your photos. But do you have enough room for the U-bolts and clamp bars to clear the radiator? (Been there, done that!) It usually takes about an inch or more between the original cross member and the back of the new cross member. I have seen and used angle iron there that was bent offset to hold the spring forward.
Your progress is looking good!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Is #20 yours Wayne? Its one of a myriad of speedster pics on file here that Ive used to assimilate a design for mine! Although #3 resembles the finished product so far. Yeah, the proverbial horse is outa the barn, but since nothings' been welded or cut on the front, I can alter as needed. The U bolts I used are 5/8 and will necessitate moving the radiator back at least that far. I am guessing at 1-1/2 of fan clearance and if its less I can trim the fan hub up to 1/2" total. So far it appears that the bottom tank clears the spring plate. As it stands now, the radiator mounting holes need to either get slotted, or re-drilled just aft to make this up. There is a pair of hood shelf holes about an inch back but I think thats too far for fan clearance. Am I getting warm?
Harold, did you work at IHC in Melrose Park? Several of our guys went there early in the 70s. I was an engineering gopher taking drawings back and forth as the Hendrickson used an IHC cab and they used our suspension stuff. Small world! ws
Flip to page 2: Finished up on the back end today and got it in primer and some flat black. Im tired of looking at shitty red and rust! I didnt do as much finesse grinding as Id have like to. Old paws are getting sore; had carpal tunnel surgery twice on each and need it again! Even drilling through Hanks iron on the frame is a challenge! ws
All bolted but NO RIVETS! A cold joint is better than a hot bowl haha! Just didnt want to weld on the frame rails. Still need to remove 3-4 leafs from the spring.
In days past, Ive built several chopped '32 Ford rods with SBCs and aint affraid of this one, thats for sure. Id never cut up an intact car, but with 16,000,000 frames made, one less wont matter!
On another note: The rear end is gonna need some attention too. I am confused at the offset on the joint bolts. Is this normal or another bastardization? ws
sure is purttT. alot of planning and work went into those rear brackets.
as for the front; I have built three speedsters with a similar front bracket but I just used the first 3 holes in the frame. Yours should hold up just fine if you ever decide to put in two bigblock V8's end-to end.
Thanks for posting the pictures.
I will look forward to more. Can't wait to see what the body will be.
We all enjoy keeping up with others' projects.
aaron in hayward, ca.
Still taking a survey on body styles. From open chassis to a mohagany barrel back,( I do old yacht restorations as well!) to an amusement ride space ship shell in fiberglass.
If its bodied, I want to ad a 1934 Ford Phaeton fold down windshield. Comments??
NO MONOCLES ;-)) ws
Don't spoil a good thing by using plastic.
I drove a '34 phaeton several times and did a lot of work on it and am working on one right now but I never knew you could get a folding windshield for one.
To keep wind turbulance down it's best to use a pair of racing windscreens. Or none at all.
Bill - Sorry for the slow response; been out running errands. My wife and I both grew up in Franklin Park and owned a home in Roselle when we left Illinois for good in 1972.
I know the IH facility you're talking about in Melrose Park, but no, I worked for the IH Advanced Engineering and Research Center in Hinsdale, Illinois. One other draftsman and I worked for a group of 8 or 9 IH engineers in the engine/transmission group and as I said, I really enjoyed it and learned a lot. (I even remember a little of it,...ha,ha....
You're right,.....small world,........harold
Well actually, I lived in Indian Head Park,Willowbrook, Darien and Burr Ridge, and had several friends work at Hinsdale, now J.I.Case. The world gets smaller... Carl Meile head of R&D (bought my dads 1926 second owner 4 door sedan!!!) P.Chval testing lab and several others; so there!! Wheres home now? We moved to Two Rivers Wi. a year ago today! YIPPEE!!!!!
And now a bummer ;-(( I had to go do a fire watch after welding in the shop today (safety first!) and set the radiator in the frame, and wouldnt ya know it, the bottom tank touches the spring plate by 1/4". I am thinking about mounting it up that far on some hardwood blocks. Good vibration absorbers too!
Aaron... how about an antique aluminum ride shell from the 40's? Theres really some bizarre art deco stuff available... dont mind it looking funky as long as its cool! ws
Just a note on that folding windscreen... its from a 32 roadster timmed to fit a probably '26 cowl. Ideas? Input?? ws
The windsheild is cool. If you have skills and want something different all i can think of is a wooden body built boat/barrel style, i looked on the internet for pictures of something really crazy for inspiration but all i found was crazy things nobody would want in real life. That amusment ride thing might end up looking a little like one of those Bugatti type 57 atalante if you like that look.
Id use something a bit darker, but kinda like this... ws
rsz_woody.bmp (37.7 k)
Trying this again... this is a copyrighted flickr pic... gimme a break! ws
woody.bmp (151.4 k)
Thats the one Kep... didnt have time this morning for the pic posting nonsense here. Thats a Model A, but the strip construction is what I was refering to. Fabbing a steel frame and skinning it with aluminum aint bad either, just cant quite figure on a certain design.
I guess Im fickle; I like every one I see! ws
Its kinda wierd when working for hours on end in the shop, that knowing what direction yer going in comes naturally. but when the days' done and I am OTC (on the couch) I start daydreaming. This usually means strange ideas come to mind about things like body styles etc. I think thatll be another bridge to cross when I get to it!
So yesterday, I pulled out the top 4 leaves from the back spring to get a grip on finishing that chapter/ ANYONE want them? Free plus shipping!
The four leaves netted me the additional one inch I neede to make the chassis level. One problem is the deficit in the rear crossmember. This meant adding a 3/8 spacer to the U bolt cross bars, and spinning out 4 spacers for the studs on my lathe. Finished up with several coats of ZINC primer and gloss black on the rails. Parking brake overhaul is next. I need to re-line the shoes and hate to spend $50 on the linings. Any alternatives? Ill probably end up making new cam bushings as well. Any good tricks to removing the arms from the shafts?? ws
looking pretty good so far... Now for some fun stuff... Dug this poster out from a box yesterday. I try to visit these guys when ever time or travels allow. Back in the days when men were steel and boilers were iron. ws
I've been enjoying your photos and text on the lowering of the chassis for your speedster. Thank you for posting. There were just a couple of springs removed from the rear of a friends speedster and we've had problems with the fenders hitting the rear tires. So far, we've added blocks, to jack the fenders in the rear, up but it still isn't good enough. We're looking at putting the spring leafs back in. We can only do so much with blocks at the back fenders. They are flat fenders and look best if they are kept level. In order to jack it up any more, we'd really need to jack up the running boards/splash aprons (Rootlieb fenders/aprons/running boards). That isn't an easy task! If you are going the no-fenders route, you might get away with taking out that many springs, but on my friend's car with the fenders, I'm not sure but what we are going to end up with a full set of springs in the rear. Another option for us would be to put a sharper bend in the fenders but they are already painted!
Verne, try a main leaf with the eye's reversed, should be good for a little more than an inch and then the extra leafs can go right back in.
Hey Verne... so far the idea is fenderless with maybe a 26 roadster cowl with undercut (?) panels where the doors go, and a lower half windshield... just semi enclosed. Its pretty cool up here by the lake and do need a little wind protection. Everyone else Ive spoken with about no fenders says when it rains youll get wet... yeah, well, after riding Harley choppers for the last 40 years, dry is only a state of mind... ws
Vertical misalignment is one thing -- How about horizontal?
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Did some radial alignment in the 1903 Dalton lathe with a wore out 4 jaw chuck. Had to make one bushing for the parking brake cam today. It was really wallered out! The worst partt was drilling the stupid pin out. Thats after WAILING on it for an hour. After drilling it through, a 2x4 block under it and a 1/4" punch and she popped out... go figger. The arm slid right off the cam shaft. New bushing went in with a slight tap, so me being anal as I am used some red locktite on it. Gonna drill the oil cup hole tomorrow and put it together.
Hit the NAPA store as they were closing today. The machinist there said they have some woven brake linings in the back and to check back in tomorrow. Will do! Cant see $50 from the catalog places!
Wife came out to the shop around noon and said Santa did a hit-n-run. My new aluminum pistons, rings and SS valves showed up along with a nice(r) parking brake lever and shaft. Even the return spring and OEM pawl are in good shape. "Looks like Blaires been busy down here..." ws