Why is the universal joint housing not closed ?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Why is the universal joint housing not closed ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 12:02 pm:

Hi,

Does anybody know, why the previous owner of my T didn't close the 2 holes at the top and the buttom of the universal joint housing ? ( i hope, this is the correct name for this tube).

There always comes oil out of this holes.
Maybe there was a reason ?

I order now this 2 screws (Model T Ford Universal Joint Housing Plug - Flat Head Later Style - Threads Into Torque Tube)

Thanks
Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 12:03 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 12:05 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 12:13 pm:

To keep oil off the rear brakes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 01:22 pm:

Once upon a time I screwed a catch can into the bottom hole. Just had to remember to empty it once in awhile. Or, you could run a tube to the upper petcock hole, I think.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:24 pm:

Either forgetfullness or laziness.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, December 05, 2011 - 03:32 pm:

Must have a very leaky ballcap (fourth main) that is letting to much oil get out, as alluded to above. Or the plug may be missing from the transmission central shaft. Does it need frequent refills of engine oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 03:01 am:

OK,
I think, the idea of Nicholas sounds good to me. Maybe there came to much oil from the engine and when this holes are closed it goes to the rear axle and fills it up (with the wrong density oil) ?

But: When there comes to much oil from the engine (transmission), what's the main reason, what can I do ?

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By BOB TREVAN on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 03:13 am:

Could be to let the water leaking problem coming into the sump out before it got to the diff area to then run out at the axel shaft ends.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:06 am:

The oil comes from around the ball cap bearing if it's too loose or as Erich says the plug is missing from the center of the drive shaft


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 09:23 am:

Put the plugs in and then monitor the oil level in the rear end. Maybe they're left out to "solve" the problem of too much rear end oil or, maybe they're left out because they were just forgotten. Either way, leaving that area open makes a mess and lets road grit & water into the universal joint area which is not good.

You might also want to install the proper cotter pins on your radius rod nuts and your ball cap bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 11:58 am:

I thought the universal joint housing was supposed to be full of cup grease. If so then open holes into the housing would not be acceptable. All the suggested solutions didn't mention filling one hole with a grease cup or zerk fitting while putting a plug, likely a pipe plug, into the other. Or am I just confused.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 12:04 pm:

Cecil,

Yes, you are confused. The two open holes in Willi's housing are meant to have plugs in them. There are other places that are meant for grease cup mounting,(and Willi has grease cups there already). These two holes are the access holes used when driving out the universal joint retaining pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 12:05 pm:

... and they are not pipe threaded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 01:28 pm:

But to answer the other part of Cecil's question; is the u-joint housing supposed to be FULL of grease?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 01:36 pm:

It should be completely packed ! And if the u-joint pin has not been peened, can you imagine the racket if the pin began to slide out ? Leaving those plugs out serve no purpose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 01:44 pm:

Thanks Steve; and then, there are those who actually leave the pin out! (???)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 04:07 pm:

Leave the pin out? So long rear end......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:21 pm:

How would leaving the pin out damage anything? i would have thought the pinion would only move so far in before the gears would force it back out toward the thrust bearing? Is there a clearance thing i should know about?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:46 pm:

We're talking about the U-joint pin, right? All I know is, somewhere in this forum, some time ago, I read where some folks leave the U-joint pin out, and claim that it works just fine as the U-joint apparently floats free and kind of seeks it's own level where it stays and operates very happily ever after. I wondered about this at the time I read it, as it seems to me that if Henry knew that this worked "just fine", he could have (and would have) saved the cost of that pin and the holes that had to be drilled for it,.....(times 15,000,000 Model T's).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 08:58 pm:

Some folks leave the pin out when using an aftermarket pinion bearing, such as the one Fun Projects makes (even though John doesn't recommend it). That setup takes care of the D/S thrust at the rear of the shaft. I wouldn't think that leaving the pin out would be a good idea when using an original pinion bearing setup, since the thrust is handled by the front D/S bushing in that case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 09:19 pm:

Ahhh,......that explains it; thanks Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - 11:23 pm:

Thought the thrust was taken up by a bearing in the pinion? Have i got it all wrong?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 12:18 pm:

Kep -- There is a thrust bearing in front of the pinion gear which keeps the D/S from moving forward. The front D/S bushing has a vertical face that the U-joint runs against which keeps the D/S from moving rearward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 12:40 pm:

Leaving the pin out is never a good idea. With John's set-up, yes, the pinion position is held constant by his device. However, the floating u-joint will wear quickly as it floats a little too far forward, then binds a little and gets shot back, until it binds a little then gets sent forward, and so on, and so on....

A held, fixed position, exerting no extraneous forces on the joint, is always best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:15 pm:

What's worse, a floating Ujoint, or one that's pinned at the wrong length? Mine floats.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:21 pm:

Willi, just to be clear, if the original type drive shaft bearings are used at the gear end, the U-joint flange (pinned in place) keeps the drive shaft from migrating to the rear and ruining the correct mesh of ring gear to pinion gear. Very important for driving and for stopping, as well as long gear life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By MARK BASLER on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 04:11 pm:

compression and/or scrubbing wear on the DS, i'd pick compression by using the pin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 04:29 pm:

Ralph,

Why would you have it pinned at the wrong length?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 05:30 pm:

There's only one exactly right length, isn't there, Jerry? When you mate the DS to worn R&P or other dimensional difference, you end up with the wrong length to the Ujoint. Or can't there be enough error to matter? How about a worn ball end as well?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 12:35 pm:

I hear you Ralph. However, the relative positions for the ring & pinion should be the same, worn or not. (Don't know why you would use a worn R & P but that's another story.) But yes, there's other factors too, such as ball socket wear, as you state. Can't do much about those things however but you can control the wandering nature of an unpinned u-joint.

That it hasn't been a problem for you is good to hear. I know you drive your T a lot.


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