I recently bought the judging guidelines book from a T parts vendor. I was looking for very specific stuff, like "this part gets painted" vs "this part should be plated", "this nut should be square", etc etc. For example, the spring clips sold by Snyder's are black but have a plated bolt and nut. Should I sandblast and paint them black, or are they supposed to be plated? I would think a book of "guidelines" should be that specific.
The book is more a listing of differences throughout the years. It is nicely done but not the guideline for making sure your Model T is correct, meaning the title was misleading to me. There are plenty of Model T books out there and it seems like this was written similarly to them.
I would also have been a little more happy if the photos were actually there instead of blacked out copies of copies of copies. In today's world, photos can be scanned and printed instead of copied and messed up. Many of the photos are so bad they are unusable. Examples - photo 3, p33; photos 11 & 12, p38; photo 6, p59; ALL photos on page 81; ALL photos on page 84; photo 14 on page 86, and many more. The original photos and comparisons themselves I would call excellent, but in the book they just aren't discernable from a smudge. They do not do the work of the photographers and researchers justice.
I also realize that this isn't the organization that produced the guidelines, but I hoped to pass this info along to others that were/are interested in the book for reasons like mine. Was I wrong to look for something other than what's in the book? How are the Stynoski winners researched and judged? I thought the judges at the shows look for things other than having the correct "year" parts on a car.
Why don't you post this on their site? It probably won't do any good,but you can try.
I wanted to but 1) you can hear the crickets chirping over there it's so quiet, and 2) I'm not a registered user. Combine those two things and I think it would be a waste of my time to register.
Russ Furstnow has recently written an updated issue, probably not available yet?
Thanks for the link. Mine is the fifth edition and I think it was $34 or $38. I saw that post when it was started, but did not follow it long enough to see Michael Mullis' post about the quality issues of copies from vendors.
I know that guys like Russ and Bruce have put a lot of work into the book and it appears that part of the problem is that I got it from a vendor instead of the club.
I'd also appreciate additional comments on the other parts of my post, the super-duper-you can't be serious-detail stuff. An older guy told me one time that Stynoski cars have the correct thread stitching in the upholstery and that most repro stuff isn't close enough for show cars. Surely Russ and Bruce amoung others are the go-to people for this info.
Just curious. Are you also a Model A guy, Craig? The reason I ask is I was a Model A guy before I was a T guy. There is no comparison between the MAFCA/MARC judging guideline book and the MTFCI judging guideline book. I had the A book and when I ordered the T book, I was expecting a T version of the same. WRONG!
Hal, I'm a FORD guy! haha I've only had one A, and it was a pickup built from the cab of a AA and the chassis I saved from a hot rodder. Never got it out on the road but made some money on it before I had to do all the bodywork on the cab (which I couldn't pull off anyway). So no, never had any experience with the MARC guidelines.
Honest to you-know-who, if I ever hit the lottery one of the first things I'd get would be the earliest '28 AR tudor sedan I could find and it would hit the road with me inside to see this great country state by state.
It would be more fun in a T. We have both, and while my A is very nice, the T's are a lot more fun to drive.
The A guidelines are pretty much what you were expecting in the T guidelines. I was disappointed too, but I still use the T guidelines from time to time. I just know their limitations.
You are correct about the Fifth Edition of the Judging Guidelines. They needed revision, and as the MTFCI Chief Judge, I've spent the last six months working on the new revision.
The revised Sixth Edition of the MTFCI Judging Guidelines has just been published and is now available. The sixth edition has 186 pages and addresses typical features for each year, a comprehensive section on TT-Trucks for each year and a section on speedster judging. The sixth edition is meant to replace much, but not all of the fifth edition.
Many knowledgeable people contributed to this edition including Bruce McCalley, Bill Barth, Steve Hubert, Kim Dobbins, Larry Smith, Steve Coniff, Gail Rodda and many others. The new guidelines are much more comprehensive than any previous edition, but I'm confident there is still much more information that may be uncovered.
The sixth edition insert (186 pages) sells for $24.95, which includes USPS Priority shipping.
I hope this information helps anyone considering purchasing the new guidelines.
As for the Stynoski Trophy, all cars competing for this award will be judged using the new guidelines, and each car is judged by a knowledgeable team of judges. Owners are asked if there are any unique features to their Model T, and then the team goes over the car very carefully. The car is required to be operational and driveable.
If you have any specific questions, please contact me, and I'll do my best to help.
Russ I appreciate your answers and openess. I will check out the update. As for the Stynoski info, I doubt I'll ever need it as dad gets the heebie jeebies if I even mention standard judging!
I too am somewhat of a Model T nut and bolt freak, and would like to know more about which bolts and nut were brass plated, or raven finished. Another issue I've have recently is the 1/4-20 square nuts used on T's; are there two varieties, or only one? I've never seen a 7/16 across the flats on a late T, but I do see them on early T's. Is it because they are more plentiful, and most people have them in their garage as opposed to the 1/2 across the flats variety? Since Ford was always looking to save money without compromising quality, you would think that they would have gone to 7/16 in later years, but they did not.
Depending on the exact details of how you got the book, if I were you, I might be a little cheesed at the supplier for selling you the old edition.
Jerry, it's an old Ford tradition to use up the old stock first.
Personally, I don't see how it is possible to publish judging guidelines which will identify what is correct on a car. Think about how many different parts there are on one year and one body style, then expand that across the entire Model T production. I've been researching the 1924-25 Coupe body for eight years and compiling the information into a book. It is currently 330 pages long and has 542 photos. I'll probably add another 100 - 200 pages and another 200 photos before I'm done. All of that just to document two years of one body style - not including the chassis. Things that are correct for a Coupe built in late 1923 would be wrong for one built during 1924, which would be wrong again for on built during 1925. I don't see how a set of judging guidelines can possible cover all of it.
The judging guidelines should be a set of guidelines to determine how to judge a car and how to award points or deduct points. The guidelines should refer to other sources to determine what is correct and what is not.
Just my opinion.
Unfortunately, Craig was caught in the transition of replacing the old with the new editions of the guidelines. Frank Fenton, the MTFCI sales chairperson, is contacting the vendors to determine how many of the old editions are still out there in an attempt to update the guidelines. I think Craig should return his old guidelines to the vendor and then reorder from the MTFCI. If anyone wants the update, they can order it from me.
Hope this helps,
David, as long as there are shows with judging there has to be something to go by. It's when a deduction is made that the judges should have information like yours. However, I would not want the judges to be so specific in their observations as to say things like "well, for one week in '23 they ran out of blah blah blah, and this car COULD have been built during that time period, so it HAS to have the uber-rare blah blah blah on it". That's more for Stynoski-type judging than AACA. I'm looking for things like: 1) should the oilers on springs and shackles be painted or plated 2) should the bolts holding the rear end housings together be painted or plated 3) should the bushings on the spindles be painted or left natural brass 4) should the exhaust manifold be left bare (to rust) or be painted to LOOK like it's bare. Stuff like that can be more generalized for AACA judging and get "crazy-ignorant-specific" (I use that in a joking way) with information from researching date-specific cars for things like the Stynoski Award.
People like you who have researched and documented things to the extreme, mostly because it was fun for you to do, are a wealth of information to guys like Russ and Bruce. They can't possibly focus on things as spefically as you have. Hopefully your documentation can be shared with others. I'm sure that other people contribute their work which has come about from their own interests - Hap is a good example here. Not everyone cares about body numbers, but Hap collects them so the info is gathered and preserved.
I guess I don't understand judging very well. If a car is being judged and happens to be built during the period when it is suppose to have the uber-rare blah blah blah on it, then shouldn't it have the uber-rare blah blah blah on it? Are there different levels of judging where sometimes you have to have the uber-rare blah blah blah or you loose points, and sometimes it's OK to substitute the more common blah blah and not loose points? Who makes the decision which parts matter and whether to take off the points or not if it's wrong? Granted, there is going to be a gray area around the time a change is made as to if it should have the old version or the new version, but that is kind of the exception since you really can't date a car that accurately anyway since all you have is the date the engine was assembled.
It would seem to me that the purpose of the judging guidelines should be to determine how points are awarded or deducted for certain things. If a car is judged to the guidelines, then it shouldn't matter what group is doing the judging or who the judge is, it should always get the same (or close) number of points. An 80 point car is an 80 point car. Now if you are going for a Stynoski, you can set the bar that you have to have 99 points to get the award. If you are going for a senior award, you can set the bar at say 80 points. If you are a club event, you can say you get a trophy at 60 points.
They can't possibly focus on things as specifically as you have.
Which is exactly my point. There are to many parts and to many variations. I don't understand how you can not focus on things specifically if you are going to judge. If a part changed, or the finish changed at a certain time, wouldn't you have to be specific about when it changed and what it changed to? Wouldn't you have to do that for every part for every year for every body style? If not, how do you judge those parts which are not included?
My basic point is, that the determination as to what the correct spindle oilers should be, and what the finish should be should not be part of the judging guidelines. The judging guidelines should just refer to some form of documentation (say Bruce's book) and then state that if they are incorrect or have the wrong finish, deduct x amount of points.
All this is why I just drive my cars and don't bother with the judging.
Purty sad a book meant to be a guide is so poorly done.
Hopefully you can get a better copy or something to deal with this.no need to pay good money for something like that.
Way I look at it,if someone has their butt in the air bent over looking under my T's for something wrong,it is in the right postion for KICKING.
Judge not my T.For it is the best I could do at the time,and I am happy for the most part with it.
"For it is the best I could do at the time,and I am happy for the most part with it."
Maybe the people who wrote the judging guidelines feel the same way.
Remember, these aren't professional authors. They're doing their best and are continually improving. I'm sure there's lots of useful information in the book, certainly more than I know, just not the info that Craig hoped to find.
This is my position on car show judging. for whatever it's worth (I was always told - consider the source). I sent it to David Schultz of Hemmings - never heard back from him.
He may not be finished reading it yet.
I hope you plan on publishing the information you have gathered on the 1923-25 coupe. I believe that any and all information that is gathered on these interesting cars should be shared so that our children and their children can understand how unique and wonderful these cars are. Put me on the list to be the first one to buy your book!! If you are not planning a book, please record your information so it is not lost.
I am not a professional author (although I have a couple of books out there on speedometers), and I did re-write the guidelines in an attempt to improve the information provided by the MTFCI, BUT I had the help of many knowledgeable people (see the post above). I was unable to interview anyone who worked on the Ford assembly line when the Model T was produced, so I had to use the knowledge and expertise of these people when the guidelines were written. BTW, if there anyone out there who worked on the assembly line from 1909-1927, please contact me asap!
I think whether to have one's car judged or not is a personal issue, and, for myself, I drive my car, BUT I also like to show it. I also agree that there is no place for anyone to say "my car is better than yours" based upon judging, and the MTFCI has taken the approach that all judging (sans the Stynoski Award) will be judged in a non-competitive environment. Cars are judged to a standard, which is set forth in the MTFCI Judging Guidelines. This judging approach is described on the MTFCI website for those who are interested.
As the Chief Judge of the MTFCI, I am always ready to help any Model T'er at any time, and I'm open to all suggestions. I hope those who have posted here take opportunity to review the new Sixth Edition of the guidelines to see what MTFCI judging is all about and let me know the good and the bad of the guidelines. That is how we improve. The guidelines are a "work in progress", and as new information becomes available, it will be added, and errors will be deleted.
Thank you to all who have expressed their opinions about the old guidelines. I totally agree with these critiques.
I have found the Model T Judging Guidelines to be less than ideal, but certainly better than not having anything to reference. I have used them on occasion, in an attempt to correct some things on my car and make it more accurate for its' year of manufacture.
In comparison, the Model A Restoration Guidelines and Judging Standards are incredibly detailed and include excellent pictures and charts to document changes right down to the month. However, to accomplish this, it has taken two national clubs and dozens upon dozens of volunteer experts at least 20 years and several revisions to get the reference book this way. And it is still not finished.
To accomplish this level of detail for Model T production which spanned about 20 years, including thousands of changes, many body styles, etc., would be as close to an impossibility as could be imagined. It is good that the T Guidelines exist, and kudos to the folks who have attempted to make them better.
Ward, well said!!! I am extremely greatful that Russ Furstnow, Bruce McCalley, Bill Barth, Steve Hubert, Kim Dobbins, Larry Smith, Steve Coniff, Gail Rodda and many others who have contributed didn't care what club, what person, or what ever. They do this for the promotion of the Model T Ford and the people who love the Model T. They have spent countless hours for little thanks for the betterment of this hobby. I'm guessing they have helped thousands of people and don't care whether your building a 100 point car or putting together something from a pile of parts you found. They just are the kind of people who are willing to give their time and knowledge to anyone who is looking for help. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution!