OT/ Day of Imfamy

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: OT/ Day of Imfamy
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lawrence J. Bohlen on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 07:17 am:

Let us not forget 70 years ago today.
All of those that served and sacrificed to preserve our freedoms.

December 7, 1941 ó a date which will live in infamy ó the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation, and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its Emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese Ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And, while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time the Japanese Government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian Islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday the Japanese Government also launched an attack against Malaya.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.
Last night Japanese forces attacked Guam.
Last night Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.
Last night the Japanese attacked Wake Island.
And this morning the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has therefore undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.
As Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense, that always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people, in their righteous might, will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire.

President Franklin Delano Roosevelt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:33 am:

Thank you Lawrence - We must NEVER forget!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:35 am:

"I'm afraid all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve". Quote by the architect of the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, after the attack... He was right.

The only blunder bigger than this was made by Adolph Hitler when he declared War on America 4 days later on December 11, 1941.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:00 am:

Thank you Lawrence for this post.
I have heard the recording of the first part of of this speach from President Roosevelt before but I believe this is the first time I have been able to read it completely.
It does give insight into why men like my fater-in-law and men just like him enlisted by the thousands right after the attack on Pearl Harbor.
In so much as the Model T era was a major influence in the development of technology and change in the American lifestyle, I think that the generation that grew up before WWII with the automobile was able to win the war because of the industrial capabilities that were in place at the time.
There was more to it than that, such as patriotism, youthful vigor and even agricultural production. All of thes things came together for one agenda. That was to win the war.

Thanks for the reminder.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:02 am:

All indications are now since secret documents have been released is that Churchill knew days in advance and did not tell your government so your country would be dragged in to the war to support the empire and save Europe, The history channel was running a series called the world at war and implied the same.... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:24 am:






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money, Braidwood, IL on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 09:53 am:

I heard rumors that our government knew, but used it as a way to get into the war.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:06 am:

It worked...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lawrence J. Bohlen on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:18 am:

Doug/Jim,

I will always believe that FDR knew something. He was too close to Churchill and would have felt betrayed if Winston had kept it from him and our intellgent services.

I had a history teacher once said that the men that died on Dec. 7th did more to win WWII than any other battle. Some folks may debate that but people need to remember the mood of the country before the attack. We did not want to be emboiled in other people's problems (IE Europe,far east)

On Dec 8th we were united to fight a terrible foe and see it to its ultimate victory.

The key evidence for me is the Carriers were at sea and thus safe from the attack. Dispite their impressive image the day of the battleship was over and people like Admiral Nimitz knew this was to be the war of/and won by naval air combat.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gordon Byers - Rangely CO on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:22 am:

I found this link this morning, an excellent piece of history that I was unaware of.

I would encourage anyone who has not visited the Arizona Memorial to do so if at all possible. You can nearly hear the war going on around you as you stand there.

Thank you to the Greatest Generation, there are not many of you left.

http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2011/dec/07/seventy-years/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:38 am:

PBS History Detectives recently did a piece on a damaged Zero that crash landed on Niihau west of Kauai on return from the attack. The Japs thought it was uninhabited, and planned to use subs to rescue any fliers who had to put down there. However, it had been privately owned and inhabited for 80 years.

When the Jap aviator arrived with a damaged fighter full of bullet holes, the residents were suspicious, but had no way of hearing about the attack for some two weeks. Meanwhile, they put the Jap pilot under the eye of a Japanese American on the island, who was the only one who could speak Japanese. The pilot convinced the local to help him blow up the super secret Zero. They did that, and then turned the plane's machine guns on the locals. They were soon killed by the heroic Hawaiians.

Once the locals made contact with the military, word quickly got to Roosevelt, and this event may have triggered the removal of Japanese and their Nisei children from the US west coast and their detention for about a year.

Some 40 years later we apologized and gave the detained survivors $40K each, IIRC. The money should have come from the Japanese govt, as they caused the problem.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:41 am:

Japan attacked us and we, no doubt had to go to war with Japan because of it, but, there was no guarantee that we would have jumped into a war with Germany as well. As a matter of fact, as weak and unprepared for war as we were at the time, I strongly feel that, had Hitler not declared war on us on December 11, we would not have entered into a conflict with Germany, who was at the very pinnacle of her power. Very few countries are able to fight a two front war on opposite sides of the globe and we were most unprepared for it. The only reason Hitler declared war on us is because we were sooooo weak and unprepared for war. if you look at the U.S. Army pre-war newsreels of the time showing the soldiers training, they had to train with wood weapons and trucks with "TANK" painted on the sides. This, more than anything, must have amused Hitler and his henchmen and bolstered his confidence that we would be no match for his battle hardened armies, which, in the beginning (Kasserine Pass) almost proved to be the case.

So, Pearl Harbor was not some sort of conspiracy concocted by Churchill and Roosevelt to get America into the war in Europe. Only Hitler's arrogance and stupidity was able to accomplish that for Churchill. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:55 am:

Germany was also obligated by the Axis treaty to declare war on us, not that treaties meant anything to Hitler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:38 am:

I agree with Jim on this matter. From what Iíve read and seen I believe it is reasonable to think that US intelligence knew an attack by the Japanese was eminent, but did not know where or when. The fact that our ships and planes were lined up like ducks is the result of foolishness on the part of Adm. Kimmel and Gen. Short. The absence of the aircraft carriers was just luck.

Germanyís declaration of war against the USA a few of days later was Hitlerís biggest folly. In fact, if he had not done that, the Brits would have continued to be on their own against the Axis (with the exception of the US taking on the Japanese). Of course that comment omits an obvious player (as did Gen. Patton). The Germans also made a big mistake in attempting an invasion of Russia.

Having said all that, it is indeed a day which will live in infamy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 01:34 pm:

As some of you know, I work in a military history museum. www.freedomisntfree.org
I will be leaving shortly to participate in the Pearl Harbor remembrance. We have an interesting artifact on the wall. It's the front page of the Honolulu Sunday Advertiser. The headline says "Japanese May Strike Over Weekend". The date on it is November 30 1941. One week to the day before the attack on Pearl Harbor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 01:51 pm:

In addition to Kimmel and Short, an argument could be made for incompetence on the part of MacArthur, at least on December 7. With several hours' notice following the Pearl Harbor attack, apparently he did little or nothing to prepare the Philippines.

As for isolationist sentiment and the lack of preparation, I believe that the isolationists were a minority, but a large and vocal minority that made it difficult to prepare for what many people knew was coming. My grandfather, who died seven months before the Pearl Harbor attack, read in the papers about Japan's behavior in Asia and predicted in the thirties that we would wind up in a war with Japan. The specific time and place were a surprise, but the war was not.

The attack, we know now with perfect hindsight, was a tactical success but a colossal strategic blunder. The Japanese military government would have been smarter to take Yamamoto's advice and bypass all American territory and possessions. With Holland occupied by the Germans and Britain fighting for survival in Europe, the Japanese goal of taking the Dutch and British possessions in southeast Asia would have been much more likely without getting the Americans involved. Hitler and the Japanese both made the mistake of believing their own propaganda.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 02:18 pm:

At 7:02am on the morning of December 7, at a remote radar station at Opana point, Hawaii, Private Joe Lockard observed a large blip on the oscilloscope screen coming in from the north. He called his immediate supervisor Lt. Kermit Tyler and described what he was seeing. Aware that there was a squadron of B-17 Bombers flying in that morning from the Main land and due to arrive at 8:00am, he told Pvt Lockard "Don't worry about it". Just 53 minutes later, all Hell was break loose. Poor Lt. Tyler. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 02:26 pm:

I'm just a Viet Nam Vet. I collected a bunch of frequent flier miles in the back of a C-130 and came home without a scratch. It's very humbling to work with guys who were in the first wave on 'D Day' or guys who earned a Bronze Star on 'Pork Chop Hill' in Korea or even my 'Nam Brothers' who are crippled to this day from their service.
My Mrs. is a Viet Nam era Women's Army Corps. Veteran, one of the rare women of the 70's who chose 'Dog Tags' over Love Beads.
Most of us (with the exception of a few brain dead entertainers), know the words to our National Anthem. The first verse of the poem The Defence of Fort McHenry by Francis Scott Key. Few know the words to the last verse of that poem. In memory of my brothers and sisters who will forever be young, I post them here.

"O! thus be it ever when freemen shall stand,
Between their loved home, and the war's desolation.
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land,
Praise the power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto - "In God is our trust!"
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKCVS57j284

DJH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 02:38 pm:

I'd be interested in reading the full text of the story that went with that 11-30-41 headline. Is it available anywhere?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 02:52 pm:

"As for isolationist sentiment and the lack of preparation, I believe that the isolationists were a minority".

Steve, the isolationists were a very powerful 'minority'. The "America First Committee" was at least half a million strong and the largest anti-war organization to this day. Charles Lindbergh was their spokesman. It consisted of many powerful members of Congress and Wendell Wilke was the anti war candidate against Roosevelt in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee
Roosevelt and military intelligence had every reason to suspect that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked. We have correspondence in the museum dating as far back as Feb. 1 1941 talking about a 'Rumored attack on Pearl Harbor'.
That said, there was no way that Roosevelt was ever going to be allowed to take any preemptive actions against Japan.
As a footnote, the "America First Committee" was dissolved on Dec. 11 1941 with this statement.
"Our principles were right. Had they been followed, war could have been avoided. No good purpose can now be served by considering what might have been, had our objectives been attained.
We are at war. Today, though there may be many important subsidiary considerations, the primary objective is not difficult to state. It can be completely defined in one word: Victory."


This was also the last time this country went to war as a unified nation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:12 pm:

"I'd be interested in reading the full text of the story that went with that 11-30-41 headline. Is it available anywhere?"

Steve, I've made 2 inquiries to the Honolulu Advertiser over the years, as a representative of a 501-c3 museum with the attached picture above. I have yet to get any reply. As far as I know at this point, we have the only copy. The paper it's self, talks about all the negotiations going on in Washington and has no direct 'how when or where' about the attack on Pearl Harbor. There's more to the story of this paper than I can post. Apparently when this paper hit the streets, the Army was going around seizing the front page off it. The guy who had this one was in a hospital, saw what was going on and stashed his paper.
As was said before, the prevailing thought was that the Japanese would attack the Philippines, Wake or Midway first but it was very short sighted not to think that the Pacific Fleet wouldn't have to be eliminated and the perfect place to do that would be Pearl Harbor, before attacking any American territory.
Gotta go get ready to go to the museum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lawrence J. Bohlen on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 03:34 pm:

Dennis,

BINGO.

Thanks for the info I have never seen that information before.

The more you find out the murkier it gets.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Spaziano on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 04:01 pm:

When my son (now 16) was in Middle School he asked me one night, while doing his homework, "Dad, when did the Depression end?"

I replied, "December 8th, 1941."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 04:04 pm:

Larry, we're very small as far as museums go but we're in an area where 25% of the population is either retired or ex-military. We have several artifacts that don't quite fit into prevailing 'history'.
We're not a 'war' museum. We are much more of a museum that tells the story of those who go to fight wars. Lots of personal artifacts, letters home, "We regret to inform you" telegrams that the women at home never wanted to see, "Rosie the Riveter" artifacts, things like that. Sometimes these letters tell a very different story about the battles we have fought. It doesn't hurt to have people like 91 year old Bill Price who was in the first wave on Omaha Beach on 'D-day' lending context to these stories either. Gen. Paul Tibbettes the pilot of the 'Enola Gay' was our honorary museum director when he was alive. First hand accounts of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, as well as autographed pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St. Louis MO on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 05:14 pm:

Dennis, my great-grandmother had the telegram she received when my great-uncle was killed at Vimy Ridge in 1917, plus other things (letters from him, perhaps?) that I'm not sure of. Unfortunately, at about age 94 (in 1960) dementia began setting in and, in those days, no one treated it. My parents came home one day to find her in front of the fireplace, where she had just burned it all. She couldn't - or wouldn't - explain why.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 06:47 pm:

May God bless every GI in and out of uniform; HEROES ALL.






"UNTIL EVERY ONE COMES HOME" USO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 07:46 pm:

There is a massive amount of speculation about how much the US Government knew before the attack on 7 Dec, 1941. The Japanese interest in Hawaii is easily traced back to the turn of the century.

The Japanese imperialism in the Pacific and Asia is a short but, I think, really complicated story. The Americans were aware of the threat Japan posed to Pearl Harbour as early as the twenties. By the second half of 1941 the writing was on the wall but (and there is no nice way to say this) no-one anticipated the absolutely dirty tactics the Japanese would choose to use.

And don't forget that Manila was attacked simultaneously and that the British territories in Asia were at risk from the Japanese too.

Have a look at the two items below....

PP 09 Dec 1941.jpg

Above is an item that appeared in the newspapers here in NZ on 9 Dec (ie 8 December in US).

Below is an extract of the report of the US Presidential Report into the attack, conducted early 1942.

Pres Report

In my mind, that war was going to break out between the US and Japan was clear, but no-one except the Japanese knew the attack on Pearl Harbour was going to take place when it did and in that way.

Isn't hindsight just such a wonderful thing!

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 08:14 pm:

Yes, there was a whole lot about the attack on Pearl Harbor that simply disappeared on Dec. 8th. We were at war. The why and the how didn't matter anymore. There was no certainty we would win the war until late in 1942 and even then, it was only through the united effort of (almost) all Americans, that we did.
The Mrs and I got to spend the evening with the surviving members of the greatest generation tonight and sadly, I don't think this country is going to see another one like them. If Korea, Viet Nam and the Middle East struggle is any indication, I doubt the United States is ever going to be united like that again


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 10:16 pm:

It's simple, really, Dennis. Invasion of the US was a real threat in WWII, and not since. Korea was a war by proxy between the US and the Commies. Most of the Mig pilots were Russian. I don't see what we would have lost by getting the hell out. Commie China had all the advantage with land supply, while we had to bring it all by ship in cold, rotten winter weather. You set up your defenses to your own advantage, not in the other guy's.

Ho Chi Minh was one of America's greatest diplomatic failures. If you ever get a chance to see his biography on tv, do it. He lived in NY in 1913, and campaigned hard in the following years to free Indo China from the French. During 1930-32, two million IndoChinese starved to death while their rice was shipped to France. Ho turned to the Soviets for help after that.

Ho Chi Minh was employed by the OSS (CIA) during WWII.

The French threatened Truman that they would vote in Communism if they had to give up Indo China. That was politically unacceptable in the US by 1950 amid the McCarthyism. They were finally defeated by Ho Chi Minh at Dien Bien Phu in 1952.

The new (north) Vietnam constitution was patterned after our own.

Johnson was reported to have said, "A little war would be good for the economy." The domino theory was a laugh. Looking back on it, we had no dog in the fight between the North and the corrupt South Vietnam, and should have stayed the hell out. Again, at best it was a proxy war between the US and the Soviets. The people in the South saw us as more round eyes replacing the French oppressors, while the North was their own people.

Up until the Gulf War, Saddam was our "ally" in his war with Iran. Iran Contra proved we were double crossing him.

The wars that followed 9-11, and probably 9-11 itself, would never have happened if our duly elected President, Al Gore, had been inaugurated in 2001. You can thank the activist Supreme Court for that.

Now that the military can imprison and keep forever without trial any American accused of anti-American activities, the idea of an all volunteer Army and not a citizen Army of draftees may be not so good.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:26 pm:

Was told by a tour guide on a recent visit to Pearl that Japanese children aren't taught about the attack. One of the fellows that worked at the Memorial also aluded to this. There was what appeared to be a japanese family who entered the theater with our group. As the movie ran the man slid lower and lower in his seat. They left after the movie and didn't go out to the Memorial. I mentioned it to the same guide on the way out and he said they don't know what this place is that's why we rarely see them here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - 11:34 pm:

PS: I don't think FDR knew anything more than we did pre 9/11.It's what sometimes happens when your fat and happy and your guards down. All the signs were there in both cases. Hind sights just 20/20. God bless the Vets and the USA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 06:22 am:

Charlie, we get a lot of tourists from Asia and Europe this time of year and the (young) Japanese tourists have a very different view of WW2. I'm not going to say 'anti-American' or 'pro-Japanese', just different. I don't know how to explain it in a thousand words or less. Same thing for the Germans. Many of the younger Germans have never seen a Swastika or a copy of "Mein Kampf" (like the one I donated to the museum), in person. NAZI memorabilia is illegal to possess in Germany. More than once, members of our staff have been taken aside by older Germans (and to a lesser extent Japanese) and been told "when we get home, we have something we will send you" because there are things in the attic 'grandpa' had, that they can't show to friends or relatives. Some of our NAZI artifacts have come directly from Germany.
Since the mission of our museum is 'the warrior' much more than it is 'the war', we try to emphasize the fact that we were all young (and bullet proof) at one time, ideology not withstanding, as best we can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 07:55 am:

Ricks, you and I seldom see anything 'political' eye to eye but I'm going to give you this one. I get into a lot of trouble with my 'Nam Brothers' when I say we were on the wrong side of the Viet Nam war. I know the history of Ho Chi Minh and his fight against the colonialist French and wasn't that different from our fight for independence from the colonialist British.
The movie "Good Morning Viet Nam" holds a special place for me. I too was a 'mouthy' young Airman like Adrian Cronauer who had a tendency to say things as I saw them. My military 'career' ended much in the same way. I joined the Air Force 'to free the world from the Red menace'. I left the military with an honorable discharge (but no stripes) and a completely different outlook on life.
All that said, I will support and honor my 'brothers and sisters' no matter what the conflict or how we got into it. I would probably be a very different person had I not come home to a country that treated us like the enemy and used us as a scapegoat for a (leftist) political ideology.
It might also come as a surprise to you how many of us can still sing the "I Feel Like I'm Fixin' To Die Rag" by Country Joe and the Fish, by heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBdeCxJmcAo

I'll bet you've never even heard this heard this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-U9Ns9oG6E
When we weren't in the air, my home base was Tan Son Nhut, 'Saigon'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 07:58 am:

I don't think the Japanese meant Pearl harbor as a sneak attack. Several accounts I have seen attribute the lack of notification to nothing more than a very slow typist at the Japanese Embassy in Washington DC. Their original intention was to declare war 30 minutes before the commencement of the attack, but, by the time the 5000 word, 14 part diplomatic communique was decoded transcribed, typed out and hand delivered to Secretary of State Hull by the Japanese, the attack on Pearl harbor had been underway for 55 minutes. Needless to say Hull was livid at what he perceived as a betrayal. The two Japanese diplomats thet were meeting with him were mortified and just as surprised. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock Newfields NH on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 08:34 am:

There is an interesting viewpoint of the reasons behind the Japanese actions at the beginning of WW II is in a book titled, "The Imperial Cruise, a Secret History of Empire and War" by Jim Bradley -

He also wrote "Flags of our Fathers" and "Flyboys: A true story of Courage"

I don't am not sure I agree with him about his view point put forth in the "Imperial Cruise" but it certainly made me think about things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock Newfields NH on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 08:39 am:

woops - the following got cut from my previous post -

The one thing I know is that we all owe or freedom to the many that served and the many gave their lives for us.
It really bothers me that there are dunderheads that haven't a clue or don't appreciate what we have due to the sacrifice of others and what they did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 10:12 am:

Thank you, Dennis. By 1968 I was home from Germany, out of the Army and building a family, so had little political involvement. Living in Navy town, San Diego, I didn't see much opposition to the war, and am still surprised by the stories of our military being disrespected. The criminals were Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon.

When I was on leave with wife and son in Spain in late 1967, I was repeatedly asked by Brits what I thought of the war. They were obviously against it. I was noncomittal, but one guy's story stuck with me.

"I rose to rank of Colonel in my career in the British Army, stationed in India and other countries of the Empire. I learned that most people don't care much about politics and philosophies: democracy, communism, etc. They just want to be left alone to live their lives and not pay too much taxes."

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 02:53 pm:

Jim Patrick,

I think most people would like to agree with you that the Japanese attack was not meant to be a sneak one. But the facts do not point to that at all.

The Japanese used the same tactic at Pearl Harbour that they had used before. Their first surprise attack was in 1904 when they attacked the Russian naval fleet at Point Arthur - without a declaration of war. Their strategies elsewhere in Asia were similar and just as brutal.

In the case of Pearl Hatrbour, there is a strong argument that the Japanese Imperial Forces were acting without the blessing of the Emperor. But I disagree with that view too. The Washington timeline is clear....

1.20pm - Japan attack in Hawaii (7.20am local time)

2.20pm - Japanese Ambassador delivers message from Emperor, who says peace is his wish

7pm - Foreign Minister Togo repeats the Emperor's desire for peace.

I am quite certain that the job of the two diplomats, possibly unwittingly, was to keep the conversations with the US going right up to the attack. All the actions of the Japanese, without exception, point to a premeditated and determined attack to wipe out the US naval power in the Pacific, which would give them a free hand in their subsequent and planned march through the Pacific territories. Those "expressions of hope" from the Japanese were part of the deception.

The precedents already set by the Japanese, and the example of the surprise attack by the other Axis member, the Nazis, on Russia a few months earlier, adds to the case against any 'honourable' intentions by the Japanese.

Even the timing, ie first thing on a Sunday morning, was part of the plan - the American sailors were supposed to be asleep on board their ships and nursing hangovers from Saturday night revelling.

I quote that "...for the sake of that first treacherous blow... the name of Japan will smell for all time with an aroma resembling that of Hitler's Germany."

I hope this reply to your comment Jim is accepted in the right spirit. I guess my only reason for saying all this is to make sure the truth is not forgotten. Even the Japanese and Germans must to accept that. We can forgive - but we ought not to forget (for then we will be in danger of repeating history).

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, December 08, 2011 - 03:36 pm:

Good points, John. Had the statement been hand delivered by the Japanese 30 minutes before the commencement of the attack, as planned, the US would have had no time, whatsoever to defend against the attack while the japanese could technically say they abided by the rules of the day, however, the fact cannot be ignored that, even had things gone as planned, it would have still meant that the squadrons of Japanese torpedo planes and bombers were in the air and well on their way to Hawaii to destroy the Pacific Fleet. Anyway you cut it, it was still a premediated sneek attack whether the Japanese meant for it to be or not. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Friday, December 09, 2011 - 06:07 am:

Rics, I would have loved to go to Germany but I spent 21 months total in South East Asia instead. I got out of the Air Force in 68, got married, partied my drunken butt off for a couple years and after a trip through VA rehab, sobered up (40 years sober this year) and settled down to raise my family. Put myself through college on the GI Bill and found myself a stranger in a strange land. When I made the mistake of mentioning I had served in Viet Nam, I found out I was a "baby burner". I just settled in and took it. I needed my Telecommunications/Journalism Degree, to 'hopefully' get a decent job in broadcasting.
It's only been the last several years that I've been 'politically active' as I've watched this country progress more and more toward an 'entitlement' society. I'm not a 'Democrat', I'm not a 'Republican' either. I'm just 'conservative' and totally fed up with 'business as usual', Washington, politics from both sides of the aisle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 06:21 am:

Hi Guys, on Australian TV last night they showed that the Japs had launched 5 midget subs to hit the fleet at the same times as the planes which is down right dirty, every body is looking up and they come up from below but only one made it in and got off two fish, the show concluded that one was a dud and sank after hitting a battle ship but the second one help to take out the Tennessee then they retreated and blew them selves up in the west lock of Peal Harbor and now it is a 1000 feet down in three pieces off the island. They had it all planed out way ahead of time... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 07:51 am:

One of the subs was shot and sunk by the Destroyer USS Ward, shortly before the attack started. The Ward radioed in that it had "sunken" a Japanese sub but it was construed that the Ward had "sighted" a Japanese outside Pearl Harbor and that had happened before so it wasn't taken seriously. It was only a few years ago that sub was found outside Pearl Harbor with the 5" shell hole in the conning tower. One sub ran aground, I 'believe' only 2 subs actually made it in far enough to fire torpedoes. I'm not sure where the 5th sub ended up. That might be the one that was blown up in very deep water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 02:40 pm:

I have my father's Kaneohe Bay ID from his WWII navy days. I spent 25 years in the navy myself and I will say that this year there seemed to be very little talk or few articles about this very tragic event. That is a sad thing and Harold you are correct. We must never forget!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Saturday, December 10, 2011 - 02:50 pm:

To Dennis Halpin... My first "Gunner" was Gunner Halpin and the principle reason I stayed for 25 years.
By the way, there is not such thing as "just a Viet Nam Vet". Thank you, and all service members for their service and sacrifices.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 09:27 am:

Hi John, I read the military news in from the US every night on Afghanistan and whats happening on the marine news site but I find it hard to work out why your government did not make a big thing out of it like the Australian people celebrate our worse days and our victory days from history here. It's about the only good thing I can say about the government here who suck up to the country's that we should forget.... Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 11:59 am:

Michael Ware, the Aussie reporter with the bent nose (in case you don't recognize the name), has spent most of the Iraq and Afghan wars reporting from there. He said on Bill Maher recently that OZ is the only nation that has followed the US into all of our wars. For better or for worse.

rdr


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