Drive shaft disassembling without removing the pin

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Drive shaft disassembling without removing the pin
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 04:40 am:

Hi,
I own the "Model T Service manual".
They write, to disassemble the drive shaft, I have to drive out the pin with a hammer.
But: I had only to remove the screw on the other side of the drive shaft, then I can remove everything. It was so easy.

So my question: Do I missing something in my drive shaft ?

Then I also don't understand the following: The roller bearing and the house looks good, but the axle is much to slow for this bearing, so the play is very big.

Question: Is this normal ?

Willi

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Sunday, December 11, 2011 - 07:47 pm:

Willi,

If everything is in good shape, it should be impossible for you to take the driveshaft out of the torque tube without removing the u-joint pin.

When you say the the "axle" is too "slow" (I think you mean too small), for the bearing it makes me wonder if the hard sleeve that presses over the driveshaft is missing. Without it you could indeed take the driveshaft out without removing the pin. Send photos of what you have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 01:11 am:

Hi Jerry,
in the meantime, I have found a "explosion drawing" of the drive shaft and universal drawing on Macs site.
I am really confused (and shocked), because I am missing a lot of this parts.
Drive shaft: I have only the drive shaft roller bearing, but I don't have this "spool bushing". I also don't have this "Drive Shaft Thrust Ball And Retainer Assembly".
Universal Joint: I don't have this "Drive Shaft Sleeve", I also don't have the "Drive Shaft Housing Front Bushing - Brass Housing".
So my question: how did it work? I was driving about 400km with it, the previous owner (in the USA) was also driving some miles with it.
Next question:
What is the easiest way to do ? I think, there is a possibility to work now with new style bearings ?

Thanks for help

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:32 am:

Willi,

It depends what year drivehsaft assembly you've got. Later ones didn't have the Spool Bushing and the thrust bearing was very different. Also, the bronze bushing that goes behind the u-joint was originally babbit. If you're not seeing bronze it doesn't mean that the bushing is missing, only that it's the original babbit version.

Again, post photos of what you've got.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Or on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:39 am:

1925 the spool bushing is the housing, it would not have a removable bushing in the housing. The race on the drive shaft did press off. The thrust bearing looks like two very heavy washers with a groove in each one and a set of ball bearings in a cage between them. The front bushing in yours might still be the babbitt type. Without these parts I think you or the previous owner would have torn up the rear end. You may not be missing as many parts as you think.
You may be looking at and exploded drawing of a pre 1921 drive shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, December 12, 2011 - 11:40 am:

Willi:

There are lots of homebrew ideas and inventions of different drive shaft bearing setups. Your T is coming around on 100 years of age. It is very possible that some machinest or inventor has altered something - perhaps not. The most important tool you have at this point is a camera. We have seen all sorts of setups and offering advise without being about to see what you see is very dangerous for us to do. If you don't have a camera - borrow one from somebody and figure out a way to post or send us some pictures. If you can't post pictures here but can attache them to an email - send to one of us and we can crop and size them and put them up for you here. We need to have eyes on your setup to be able to give you good direction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 04:47 am:

Thanks,
I will make some fotos and post them here.

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 01:33 pm:








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 01:40 pm:

Hi,

here I have some fotos.
This is all I have.
I agree, on the side of the universal joint, the missing bearing is not so important, because it is supported from the transmassion side, so it "hangs" in the air. What do you think ?

But on the other side, it's very strange with only this "drive shaft roller bearing", which has a inner diameter much smaller than the axle. So when the small gear at the end has to bring the power to the differential gear, it will be moved a lot to the side. How can this work ?

So the small gear at the end looks bad, waht do you think? Do I have to replace it ?

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 01:45 pm:

OK, now let's have a look to the differential gear:

It looks very bad, so do I have to replace it also ?

So what shall I do ?
Is there a good "modern" solution (with new bearings) ?


Thanks Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 01:47 pm:






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - 02:18 pm:

Willi,

I don't have time to study it completly now but, if that truly is ALL you have then this car had some serious problems.

There is supposed to be a hard sleeve pressed over the driveshaft, directly behind the pinion gear. It's missing apparently. This is what the Hyatt roller bearing is supposed to ride on.

If there really is no bushing behind the u-joint that is also a serious problem. It is NOT supported by the transmission side. The side to side play in your u-joint, that you mentioned in an earlier posting, will not allow for the support of anything.

You do have the removable sleeve in your pinion bearing spool but the photos seem to show that it's cracked and therefore no good.

You also seem to have NO thrust bearing at all.

The ring gear has been ruined by the lack of the parts mentioned above.

Is there anyone near you who can help you with this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 12:38 am:

Hi Jerry,
thanks, I have to do it.

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 11:05 am:

I would suggest buying the driveshaft bushing, http://www.modeltford.com/item/2581.aspx

A modern pinion bearing conversion, (should be easier to install & adjust and eliminates the need for a good Hyatt bearing which nobody makes and you probably need), http://www.modeltford.com/item/2587PB1.aspx

And a new ring & pinion gear set, http://www.modeltford.com/item/2518-97B.aspx

Should also get a new pinion gear key, http://www.modeltford.com/item/2598B.aspx

Make sure your differential thrust bearings are bronze, like these, http://www.modeltford.com/item/2528.aspx

Send more photos of your rear axles, where the bearings ride & the tapered ends, showing the keyways.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 11:45 am:

In addition to the Fun Projects pinion bearing conversion, a new drive shaft is probably a good idea. It appears the old one was damaged by running without a sleeve. With the conversion, you won't need the sleeve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 03:20 pm:

Carefully check, and/or show photos of the rest of the rear end, axles, all bearings and sleeves etc. Anything put together that badly must have been done either in desperation or by someone that knew nothing about mechanics. I have been known to run some marginal stuff over the years, but I wouldn't use hardly any of those parts. Do not try to run the drive-shaft without the front bushing. It needs both the support and the end-play control. Lack of end-play control is what did most of the damage to everything else.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holidays! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 - 03:58 pm:

Your driveshaft tube is likely good if it has the sleeve in it. If not, you will need to get a new sleeve and hopefully it will be a snug fit and will work. The driveshaft itself very likely to need replacement, because the hyatt bearing and/or the front end has been riding on the shaft without the hardened sleeve. It might be possible to replace with a new pinion gear conversion and thereby save the driveshaft? I have no experience except with the original type. The ring and pinion gear must be replaced and the key must be a snug fit so that the pinion gear does not move back and forth on the driveshaft. The nut is not enough to keep it from moving when you go from brake to driving. Install bronze washers on the carrier to axle housing. Be sure all the parts fit to the dimensions called for in the book before driving the car, and it should be OK. There could be other parts needing replacement, but cannot be sure unless I were there to personally inspect the parts. It would be far less expensive to replace any suspicious parts now, than to re-use them and cause failure of the new gears and other new parts. I would like a trip to Switzerland, so---if-- you--would like to pay for the airfare.:-)
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willi Kuehnis on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 01:23 am:

Hi, thanks for your help, especially the list of Jerry is very helpful for me, because in the meantime I was reading a lot and I made to the same list !!
Only the "pinion bearing conversion kit", I have to buy a completely new one: I cannot send back my core, because I live in switzerland. This means, the costs would be higher to send it 2 times and to pay the customs for it.
But it sounds good.

Question:
Do I maybe also need this: "Model T Ford Universal Joint Shim - Cup Shaped" ?

Willi


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 15, 2011 - 09:47 am:

Willi,

Maybe. It depends how much fore & aft play you have in the ball joint when it's all assembled.


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