Ok guys this is a good one.
Take a look.
Looks like some one had a lot of time on their hands. It not badly done....
Could this have been done by a dealer service department?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Model-T-Touring-4-dr-convertible-center-mntd -3-speed-tilt-wheel-elect-start-excellent-cond-/330656315983?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&h ash=item4cfca6fa4f
Larry
How hard is it to "upgrade" a model t with a model a engine?
You'd think he could have sprung for one shot of the engine. Don't know enough about the A oil pan but that's not a T pan under there. Where did the wishbone hook up to? Or did the A engine have a spot for one too? I've got the feeling that if you had to swap an engine/trans into a T the A might offer the least problems.
Interesting, the engine, transmission AND rear axle are Model A. The front wheels are on accessory (or very late production)A hubs with the drums turned off--and the wheels are model A. Someone went to a lot of trouble at some point in this car's life.
It is interesting that it does all fit in there!
(NO, not thinking about doing it to my Tudor!)
T'
David D.
PS, can't tell, but looks like a Model A speedo worked into the dash too.
All Fords with transverse suspension have a wishbone which somehow have to be fixed in a (rubber) ball joint either on the pan or to the frame (V8 and small european Fords).
It's the same with the Model A. Out of my head I can't remember exactly where - I think it is to the bottom of the clutch housing.
The rearend is also Model A so it look as if they have swapped the whole drivetrain from T to A.
If Ford did things as they do today this COULD have been a secret test Model T to test the new Model A drivetrain on the road in disguise :-)
But Ford did not work that way - then.
I own one of these. My son was looking for a '28 Roadster in Craiglist and he emailed me the photos. I ended up buying the thing and am now reverting it back into a proper '26.
The frame on mine is a shortened Model A frame with Model A axles. The radiator is a custom job and the previous owner did bad things to the radiator shell to make it fit. He also welded a boss to the front crossmember so he could fake a crank on the front
If the fenders wouldn't have been in such nice shape and the price so attractive, I wouldn't have bought it. If you're ever thinking of doing this to a Model T, my advice is to buy a Model A if you want a Model A engine in your car.
Charlie, If you scroll down on the pictures there are some engine shots.
Interesting...this conversion includes a Model A rear axle with hydraulic rear brakes, but retains the Model T front axle.
I have seen several Model Ts to which Model A front axles were installed.
The seller does have two images of the engine posted in the listing.
Thanks John. Didn't do that. Man if you look quick it almost looks right. I'll bet that sucker went in there with no trouble at all. I'll bet it flies too!
That's what got me going.
By doing the A engine/trans and rear you solve a lot of the conversion issues. A quick glance or running down the road you would never tell it's not a '27 touring. Of course we have all those folks out there that think the improved car is a Model A anyway.
It's not a Model A engine. It's a Model B. Note the water pump, blanked-off fuel-pump mount, etc.
Jim
It's a B engine. Looks like B transmission also.
Simultaneous post.
That is a Model B engine, not Model A.
Ron the Coilman
I'd like to see what he did with the pedals. I see a hydraulic brake line.
The intake and exhaust manifolds are also Model "B", but the carb is a Tillotson pot metal Model A carb, a Western Auto item. They used to sell brand-new in J.C. Whitney for $13.50, still in the original boxes. I bought one in the 1960's for that price and put it on my 1931 Coupe. It worked fine for a while, but once the flange warped (all Tillotson-X carbs do eventually) from the engine compartment and exhaust manifold heat, it wouldn't idle well at all. I hope this guy filed the carb's mounting flange level or the engine will idle as poorly now as mine did four decades ago. 'Have used only original Zeniths since, both Model A and B styles.
Also, the four-blade fan here is from a V-8 Ford, not a Model A. And they're dangerous 80 years later! They rust inside and the rivets holding the whole shebang together let loose - with predictable results to the radiator, hood and sometimes to people watching the engine idle with the hood raised. Some clubs won't even allow Model A's with this fan blade to go on their tours because they are so dangerous. Kiss an $800 radiator good-bye someday! It happened to my 1931 DeLuxe Roadster in 1993. No more four-blades for me! I hope the new owner of this T/A is more fortunate.
Marshall
The front wheel hub is very much like the Y Type Fords, and would be about the correct size. Not quite certain about the Hub Bolt pattern without checking. Regards, John
I would say it has model A front hubs and wheels with model A Rocky Mountain brake drums with the brake surface turned off the drums. That would be to give the A wheels support that they do not get with the drums left off.
There was a four blade fan that dealers sold in '33 to people who complained about their A running hot. Seems to me they gave them to A owners free.
The V8 fan bolts to the pulley with four bolts.
There is a 6 blade plastic fan for the model A that holds up well.
Then there are those running their model A with no water pump and only a two, four or six blade fan. Or electric.
The A will thermosyphen too.
BEFORE ANYBODY JUMPS ON James for saying it has a water pump; the A had a four-bolt water pump, this model B engine has a model B head and THREE-bolt water pump.
Model B fords also had a centrifical advanced ignition so there was no spark lever.
I would love to know when this was done.
I think its been this way for a long time.
Maybe the original engine blew up and the Ford dealer said "I can get you an upgrade".
1933-5 ?????
It is possible to mate a Model A block to a T pan and transmission. It takes some engineering but it does make a great combination for tours. One major problem is that you still only have the T brake setup unless those are modified as well. My dad did one and he and my mother went on many tours with it. It is in my possession now.
It certainly didn't get the juice brakes in 33 or 35.
The front Hub shown on the auction site appears to me to be either a modified V/8 or one from the 8 hp English Y Type Fords. It appears to be missing the brake drum section of the hub.
Pictured below are two view's of an English Y Type Front Hub.( 10 inch )
Late '31 Model A's and 1932 Ford used the same type spoked hub. Alot of people think they are aftermarket, but they're genuine Ford.
I think it would've been easier to use Model A wheels than to turn the drums down like that!
I have seen those spoked drums on '34 and '35 Fords too. In fact I have one from a '34.
Gee guys, re: the front hubs, that's what I wrote! Besides late production, they were also available as aftermarket.
I hope they were bad ones when they were turned off!
T'
David D.
PS nowadays, "a long time ago" could have been in the 1980s!
David D, I owe you an apology . I guess that I didn't pay enough attention to the earlier posts on this rather unique car. Give credit where credit is due. David was on top of the situation with the wheels right from the start. Sincerely, John
Well John, If I'd been on top of the situation, I would have noticed the B engine features! The B style exhaust manifold and intake. The A style foot feed, although a strange adaption on the linkage to the carb with a big "U" bend. There is also an adaption to put the manual advance on the T steering column.
Note the interesting adaption to fit the T front wishbone to the later engine.
Not that I'd want to ever do this, but it is interesting to look at!
T'
David D.
That's kind of like what I had in mind for my 27 Tudor when I first bought it except I wanted to put a V8-60 in it. If you're going to go to all that trouble why not just keep going and put 'juice brakes' on all 4 wheels?
Harry Daw wrote:
“It is possible to mate a Model A block to a T pan and transmission. It takes some engineering but it does make a great combination for tours.”
Can you go the other way? T block on an A pan? A Z Head T engine with a header and a Winfield updraft in front of a 5-speed transmission seems like it would be fun in a speedster.
With four-wheel brakes, of course.
-Dave
V8 60 in a '27 touring...Model A underpinnings, with hefty reinforced Model T frame.
In our local T club we have a member with a T that has a V8 60. He said back in the days he couldn't get T parts anymore so he bought Chevrolets, but they were so hard on rear axle shafts that the supply dried up so he put a V860 in T that he had kept. That ended his broken car with no parts problem.
Now that T parts are readily available he drives his all as original '27 Touring on most tours.
On the blue touring above I see model A pedals, front axle & brakes (maybe), amodel A speedometer probably a model A side mount bracket.
I guess it depends on preference, as so often. I chose a T over an A for two reasons:
1) the unique transmission
2) the spindely, tall Runabout body.
I have no problem with an A, however. In fact, my next car (I'm secretly putting $500 per month away) may be an A sedan. Or a Dodge. Or something else.
But if I wanted to go walk the hybrid road, I would probably get a top-notch frame with 4-wheel juice brakes, a 85hp V8 and then mount a T body on top of it. Just sayin'.
Better yet, if I had the cash, I would go and buy this car and do nothing to it but drive it until the day I die:
http://www.stlouiscarmuseum.com/stlcarmuseumtemplate.asp?id=1198
40-or '41 steering column.
What are those tail lights? motorcycle?.
"V8 60 in a '27 touring...Model A underpinnings, with hefty reinforced Model T frame."
Yup Dan. That's exactly what I had in mind when I bought my 27 Tudor. But once I got it home and took a good look at it, it was just too complete and original to 'cut up'.
Ya gotta admit, that little '60' fits in there so nice, it almost looks like it could have been 27 'high performance option'.
I think you're right Aaron. The tail lights look like they are off something like a 32 Henderson or some other pre-war bike.
Here's a nice try by a Los Angeles Ford dealer in 1915, nipped in the bud by Ford's area district manager:
(originally posted by Kerry Van Ekeren)
As noted in the article, The Henry Ford had a Gentry engine for a T on display for many years. I believe it is now owned by Don Snyder.
I have seen this engine before in I think "Model T In Speed and Sport". Anyway, there was a brief article with it and maybe one picture, no where near the detail shwown here. This almost looks like two T blocks were used and mated into a wedge shaped base. That crank surely would not have lasted long in regular use! Sure is an interesting "what if" study.
"It still has the depression-era fuel ration ticket on the split windshiels.(sic)" Really? Anybody remember fuel rationing during the Depression?
I don't think I'd want a V8 in a stock Model T. Edsel put 4 wheel brakes on the Model A, for a reason.
Got to admit. that would be quite the conversation piece at car shows, though.
I would like to put a T engine in my dads 31 model a roadster just to see him fight with those 3 pedals. (he's not a very good t driver)
Reminds me of a friend who put a flathead Ford motor in his '65 El Camino. Best thing that ever happened to that El Camino........
Steve,
Actually, Those stickers were a wartime (WWII) gasoline rationing program. the "A" decal was issued to the general public.
Steve,
Didn't gas rationing occur right before the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? O_o
Actually the "A" decal only allowed the owner 4 gallons of gas per week. The National Speed Limit was 35 or less (a rubber saving measure).
A = non-essential driving; 4 gallons a week
B = essential to war effort driving; 8 gallons a week
C = Physician, Minister, Mail Carrier, Railroad Worker.
E and R = non-highway equipment only (not for registered vehicles of any kind)
T = Trucker
X = Members of Congress and VIPs (This one is RARE)
Gas was rationed from May 1942 through August 1945. It began as a voluntary measure, but quickly became mandatory. You could not own more than five tires (cars were rationed, too). Certain ration stamps required tire inspections every 3 months.
Gasoline was not permitted to be put in your gas tank and then siphoned out when you got home for any other purpose.
My uncle had about a 30-31 Chev pickup. He was a farmer, he had a T ration stamp. I remember it.
I was restoring a '26 Chev pie wagon with a T stamp on the windsheild but I don't know when it was put on there.
Mike;
The Germans didn't bomb Peral Harbor. The Japs did.
Where is Peral Harbor?
Mike has a rare Irish sense of humor.
This thread just had to go this direction, didn't it? Now I want a lowered, full-fendered '27 roadster with a V8/60 on a T pan. Think the planetary trans would hold up?
Yes, I think the planetary would take 60 hp, no problem. I wood use wood bands, however.
Is this drift, or drifty?
Heck why not just stick a Yoyota Prius engine / battery pack / instrument panel in there?
Same effect. You would no longer own a Model T. With an A engine in the T or a V8 you own a hot rod and need to go play somewhere else on the internet because you are sure screwing up your T and it is a sad thing to watch.
Dave,
You got me thinkin' the same thing. I bet the T planetary would, 60 HP isn't a whole lot and that is about what my new motor would put out.
...I've seen some super nasty T motors pushing the 125 to 225 HP range backed up by stock T planetary Transmissions :D