WWHD

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: WWHD
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 03:10 pm:

What Would Hank Do...

So there I am putting the rods on the pistons today. With limited fixturing, the rods look pretty straight. Thats using dial calipers and indicators, all making it at least within reason.
So I get to the rod end. Caps and rods as removed last fall are all over the place. Three outa four have the caps on in one direction. The rods were file marked as per the book on the cam side of the rods, BUT, the numbers are 1-2-nothing-4 with the caps being marked as 1-2-2-4 and on either side of the cap.
So now for THE BIG QUESTION... starting somewhere, does the Ford script on the caps go to the cam side or away??? Some alley mechanic did these years ago, and altho INCORRECT, seemed to have worked. Number 4 dipper in the pan has a substantial gouge in it so I can only assume the rods were gonners sometime in the last 85 years.
Any INPUT or ANSWERS to this one??? ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 03:37 pm:

If YOU didn't mark the caps when removed from the rods, then it makes no difference now.

But the chore is made harder, the caps and rods should be re-fitted to the crank, with scraping or Timesaver to re-establish the fit.

Most old rods are marked in multiple ways, with added marks from other mechanics, what matters is keeping them in same relation when removing and installing on the crank those rods have been spinning on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 05:46 pm:

And when you lay them out in order, don't leave the door open and let the wind blow over the pad where you laid them out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 06:23 pm:

When the rods came off last fall, the caps went right back on as they came off including all the shims. So now I find myself blueprinting this mass of rotating iron...
I guess mainly, I wanted to know if a reversed cap has a different thrust clearance. Now thatll hafta get checked too. As it stands right now, the rods got switched onto the new pistons, rings checked for endgaps, and re-installed on the pistons. The bizarre thing I noticed is the shim pack is pretty large. Theres multiple joints that each carry a .035 PLUS an .015 shim... thats .050! Whats up with that? While it was apart, I popped out the rod bolts and touched off the joint face with a smooth file. Just to clean up a few bumps here and there. The caps were darn near perfect and a few rod edges were a little ruff but nothing major. Anyone here need a set of standard cast iron pistons? Make Jim dandy ashtrays! ws






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 07:27 pm:

If I was in your shoes I would order four replacement rods from Ron's Machine shop. You are unlikely to have good results given what has happened with all the rods and end caps mixed up every which way. And for goodness sakes mark them and don't mix them up this time!

Here's a link:

http://ronsmachineshop.net/Welcome.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 08:35 pm:

Thanks for the link Royce! Altho financially thats outa the question until I win the mega millions next week LOL... Actually, I did mark all the caps and rods, but even then, there were 1 or 2 that were reversed, and none that had numbers that matched the mate. I dont know if this motor ever ran after re-assembly in 1970. I guess tomorrow, Ill be measuring the rod bores to see where we stand. The babbit is actually in good shape visually so its a matter of hand fitting at this stage. Sooo, back to the main question, which way does the script face, or does it even matter? ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 09:25 pm:

Bill

Your engine is looking good! Should be fine.
Just follow on with the instructions at paragraphs 383 - 386 in Ford Service.

Fret not on those rod caps, most Ford rod caps in early years never had a script anyway. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 09:39 pm:

If you use some prussian blue, you can find out which cap fits which rod and which way it fits. It will take some time though. When it is right, you will have about 90 percent contact. If you start out with close fit on one side of the rod and the opposite side of the cap, you either have the cap backward or the wrong cap. If the same cap does the same thing either way, try another cap both ways etc until you get one that fits. Then go to the next one. do the same and finally when you get them all fitting then you can begin to add or remove shims until you get the clearance right. It will take more time than it would if you had kept them in the right order when you disassembled it, but it can be done with patience. If you are using the same rods on the same crankshaft, you don't need to use timesaver.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, December 17, 2011 - 11:07 pm:

A set of rebabitted rods is only $198. I know people who spend that much on lottery tickets every week! Click here and scroll down a page to see:

http://ronsmachineshop.net/Catalog_files/Master%20Catalog%202008%20PDF.pdf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:05 am:

Bill S,
There is no front/back/side-toward-cam on the caps. Any various marking goes on either side, BUT needs to always stay matching the rod how it was machined the last time (if possible). As Norman says, check the match with Prussian blue to make sure they are right. (If the bluing says they're good, it doesn't matter if the previous owner mixed them.) Rod caps have often been mixed up and re-rebuilt with all kinds of numerical markings in all kinds of random order.

Royce,
I haven't spent $198 on lottery tickets in the past 30 years! And if I spent that much today, I would have to go hungry for at least a week!

Drive carefully, and enjoy the season! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:43 am:

I've never bought a lottery ticket. I don't gamble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:15 am:

Bill Stephan......you don't even Prussian blue to get things sorted. Plain old soapstone will show what you need to know.
You don't even need that but it'll make things a heck of a lot easier.
They fit once and they'll fit again....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:42 am:

OK. Craig, Ill bite; how do you apply soapstone? I spent 30 plus years at a generating station starting as a helper and finishing as a maintenance engineer, and learned a ton of old school tricks. We blued LOTS of turbine bearings and gear drives etc, but never used soapstone (?)
I really need to take the day off and spend it with my wife. We're gonna take a spin out in the country and enjoy some seldom found sunshine this time of year! Then back to the grind tomorrow. Thank GOD Im retired!!!
So the next step for me is to get an accurate measurement on the crank pins (took them upon first dis-assembly, but quickly!) and then measure the rods to get an idea of concentricity(or lack there-of) and then do some fittin' and bluin'. What an operation this has turned out to have been!
Just to re-iterate my stance from the git-go, I did mark each cap for "front" and cylinder number, but finally realized the other day that the caps were not all facing the same direction. Now I come to find that all the rods and caps are mismatched and probably came from Joes' junkyard in 1940. Its really no big deal, just want to re-orient everything so that the next owner in another 100 years can figger this out too! Thanks fellas!
Dippers should be here tomorrow and would sure like this straightened out by then! ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 06:33 pm:

With a 1/4" round soapstone in a pencil holder.
It's the only thing I ever used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:29 pm:

So... I do use a 1/4 X 5/8 flat soapstone in a holder when I am marking iron etc, but it doesnt seem like it would make a decent mark on a journal or rod bearing. Tell me more before I look like I stuck my fingers into a blueberry pie tomorrow! LOL ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:41 pm:

OOOH! OOOOH! I forgot to ad that while driving around out in the hinterlands today, we stopped and talked with a farmer that has a yard FULL of junk, like old John Deere tractors etc. Aske him if he had any T stuff. He didnt, but gave me directions to a guy 2 miles away with one for sale.
I knock on this guys door, and Baby Huey answers. Hes about 40 and his 90 year old folks are with him. He confirms and takes me out to his Morton building. Its loaded with beautiful antique farm tractors that he shows. Lo and behold, he pulls back the tarp on the T and here sits a beautiful '15 touring car! Barn was kinda dark and cold but it was shiny anyway with a new brass original style radiator. Said he paid $800 for the rad about 4 years ago. Car was run last year but he cant drive it... his knees hit the steering wheel! It does have electric start and electric headlights along with turn signals etc.
I asked him what he wanted to get out of it and when he said "Twenty-Five" the gears were really spinnin' until he added "Thousand". Oh well... ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:07 pm:

Bill, I hope that is just magic marker on no.4 exhaust valve to cylinder,that is between the exhaust valve and piston, that looks like a crack that 26-7 blocks are real common for. You might want to look a little closer to that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:31 pm:

Boy oh boy!! I had to don my slippers and go grab a pic! I never couldve slept tonite otherwise! I looked it over pretty close before, but stranger things have been overlooked and spotted by some one else ya know?
I cut new seats and just got the 1/64 O.S. valves and it wouldve really jenced me off if I found a crack! Thanks for using the old dilligent eyeball Joe! ws






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:26 pm:

Bill....soapstone probably doesn't leave marks as clearly as PB but, as I said, I never used anything else. Same for testing valve seats. A series of marks on the valve face, set it in the seat, give it few 1/8 turns back and forth and if the marks are gone you're good to go, as recommended in all the really old books........which never failed either....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 06:04 am:

Ill give it a try today and get some feedback tonight! The vision is failing and always seem to need brite lites right at the point of contact. Hope this stuff is easy to see! ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 06:24 am:

Must of been the angle or some thing, but the picture that was on the forum had a dark spot there and A have been burned before at auctions so I look close now, sorry about the lack of some good sleep.
Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 08:52 am:

Slept like a pickaninney last nite! The lighting for pics leaves something to be desired in the shop... sometimes its with flash, flourescents, or even sunlight.
Im pretty adept at doing hand fitting on old stuff, and rarely hafta rely on outside machine work, and this so far, is no exception. I try to do things like the Ford garage in Bugtussel Wyoming wouldve done in 1910; Hmmm. This one started out with a spray coating of Dychem Blue layout die and swiped the deck with a file for starters. That in itself showed a few high spots that needed to be cleaned up and went from there. The blue thats left is merely residue. BTW, the deck was flat within about .005" with a straightedge and feelers. Sure, couldve hauled it to the nuke plant over here for a laser scan, but after all, its a Model T. "Hey Fritz, wheres that big ol' hammer...?"
So now today, we start re-fitting the rods. I sure dont see this thing making 10,000 rpm on nitrous, but a 30 mph spin up town for some coffee next spring seems doable!
Nuthin' but time pal... nuthin' but time! ws






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 09:03 am:

Just a cleanie-weanie! Lotsa reial fit ups and cant wait for the final! These are what I was looking for earlier... ws







New manifold and a perfect fit with packing rings in place!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 03:04 pm:

Hank woulda handed this off to Willy to blue and fit in the bearings. Glad I work cheap.
All four rods gave me almost 100 percent contact! All four caps needed a little finesse. A few needed some extra clearance on the side. Im still confused about having to ad giant shims... Seriously... like .050" ??? ws








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