Help identify these (roadster) body panels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Help identify these (roadster) body panels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:41 am:

I got these in a parts lot a couple years ago. Put them in storage and forgot about them, but would like to build a roadster at some point. Now that I'm looking at them, I see the left side has a door. Are these from a '26-7 roadster pickup, or are they from an earlier Canadian Ford?

1

I was hoping to mate these to some Howell's sheetmetal to make a complete '15 body since they don't appear to sell the rear sections for a teens roadster (and I can't find anyone that does).

Thanks,
Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 03:04 am:

Hey Craig, there are a couple guys on here like Hap that will be able to identify the week they were made let alone year. they're very similar to what i have(u.s.15-22) but yours have a lower back and less radical rise also i see the back panel peeking out and judging from the distance of the body line from the top i'd say these are '23-'25 canadian love seeing that old sheet metal preserved! i think some of the earlier panels had the holes for the top supports too(?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 03:45 am:

All I can tell you is that 1915-19 have a narrow piece of sheet metal folded out sort of horizontal from the top edge. It was to attach the tack strip for the upholstery outside the body. 1920-25 had the tack strip inside the top of the sheet metal. Those are 1920 or newer. I do not know if there was a significant change around '23-'24, but I think there may have been.
I would restore that. I have restored worse. Start by removing the rust by electrolysis. That has the least detrimental effect to the remaining steel. Rust-out and small holes can be repaired with epoxy and steel backing so that it cannot be easily detected and will last longer than you or your children will. Beside, I also like when original sheet metal is returned to the road!
And a semi-Canadian runabout with both doors would be great!
Drive carefully, and enjoy the season! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Patrick Martin on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 06:20 am:

Canadian


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 08:10 am:

Thanks for the answers guys. I will post additional photos of the front sections, doors, cowl, and back panel later this morning. The sheet metal will need a lot of work but yes it's definitely restorable. I know what you're saying about the tack strip being slightly different later on, but could the difference be hidden to use a early-'20s body for a '15 style build?

If anyone has US-style roadster panels I can use for my project and would like to trade for these "super rare, never seen, driver's door option, prototype" pieces (what the Tbayers would say haha), I'd like to hear about it.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker -- NW Ark. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:12 am:

Craig -- The 15's didn't have the holes for the top prop arms, but filling those is small potatoes compared with the rest of the work you'll be doing on those. :-) You'll need a low cowl to make a '15, so pics of the cowl you have will help determine what else you might need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:59 am:

Uh oh.... Just went down to the back patio (where I store the "not so pretty" T parts) and couldn't find the driver's side. Why it's not with the other parts is not obvious at this time. I'm having a FORD owner moment!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:07 am:

Craig

Putting it back togather and finding the needed parts is most of the fun. It does look like a 23-24 sides with both doors. The wood will be different than 1915-22. I have the rear side brackets that support the rear curve and the top down rods that come through the side hole. Feel free to correct my spelling.

Bob



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:18 am:

Finished prodoct


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 11:36 am:

Bob, I can't see "the finished product" - please repost it.

I'm going nuts now. Can't find the driver's side anywhere. Only one more place to look and I don't ever remember having it in that particular building. Gulp...

I just can't figure out why Howell's doesn't sell this piece for any of the years but they have everything else. Anybody know of a supplier with the rear sections so a completely new '15 roadster body can be pieced together?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:03 pm:

Craig

Needed a strong cup of coffee,A smoke and some cool damp air in my face to wake up.
Here it is , it is an early 23 with low hood and later slant windshield. Maybe not all correct,but it was fun to do.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:25 pm:

Bob - Those great "before" & "after" photos that you just posted should certainly be an inspiration to anyone that has a "pile of rust" that they think perhaps might be "too far gone" to restore! You might consider posting another photo or two of that beautiful yellow roadster pickup of yours; I know you have photos that show the color better; I've seen 'em!.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:50 pm:

wayne mine must be '15-'19 cuz i have the bent lip.Thanks Harold, my stuff is in virtually the same condition. did you buy a wood kit or build from plans? if so do you still have them? what type of wood did you use? yours is 23-25 but i have very simlar top supports starting to wonder if i have the right seat frame for my '18


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 12:52 pm:

sorry i meant Bob woops


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:05 pm:

Harold

Thanks, the color is Sandalwood Tan and Buckskin. This was a color used in the 60's or 70's on Ford Puckups. I posted the incorrect pictures that was the rail car body, here is the right ones.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 01:23 pm:

Rik
The plans that I have are by Miller copyright
1969. and are for 1915 to 22.I Don't even know where they came from. I've had them for at least 20 years, will follow through after the holidays

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 02:34 pm:

Success!! After looking EVERYWHERE, I went back to look in the rafters of the garage across the street. While I was climbing around in the 30 degree cold, I remembered that I had some parts behind my late '23 body which is on a shelf 7 feet off the floor in the back of the garage. Well, it wasn't behind the body. :-(

Two hours later, I had a flashlight with me and found it IN the body. :-) I'm going to take a break, eat some junk food, and then I'll post some photos of the rest of (what's left of) the body. Mike, I think you're right! But at least all I need are the rear sections and the cowl if I buy the front quarters from Howell's. Not sure if I'll keep the left door or go the easy route and use the entire left side as stamped from them. I believe I have each of the 3 kinds of cowls, with an extra late 23-25 so I'm covered.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:00 pm:

Pics:

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

The cowl was part of the lot of parts but I'm not sure if it will go with this body. Also, it appears I have two driver's side front quarters but the passenger front is missing. Hopefully this stuff will work with new sheetmetal!

Anybody have more ideas on a date for this stuff?

Thanks!
Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:09 pm:

From your pictures I would guess 1924 body. I picked up one recently in a little better shape. I am cutting new wood for it this Winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 04:31 pm:

Thanks Jack. Any interest in doing 2 sets?

I got to thinking this week that for a couple hundred bucks in replacement sheetmetal, some time in finding a turtledeck or building a pickup box, a few million hours of bodywork, and a wood kit, I could have a roadster or roadster pickup. Got plenty of fenders, running boards, etc to finish it off so why not.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 05:35 pm:

Craig,I can do two sets. In fact I have most of it cut already. Just need to finish the main sills and up rights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 06:23 pm:

Jack, I sent you a PM.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:48 pm:

Jack, my '24 roadster has a dummy door on the left side. Perhaps my '24 isn't a '24?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 07:50 pm:

Oh, I get it, this is a Canadian model with right hand drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 09:35 pm:

Cecil -- all the Canadian car bodies that had front doors always had front doors on both sides of the body. That way the body could be dropped on a RHD or LHD chassis.

Craig,

Do you know if all of the sheet metal came from the same body or not?

The cowl is clearly a low cowl. That size cowl was used 1915-1923 model year. The cut out / half moon above where the coil box would mount indicates a 1917 - 1923 black radiator car. And the metal dash attached to the cowl if it was there originally would indicate it was a starter equipped 1919 - 1920ish or starting in 1922 all cars had the instrument panel. Based on that I would think the 1919 - 1923 and more likely later than earlier as they made more of them.

See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/132254.html for Phil Mino’s excellent photos showing 1915-1923 low cowl vs 1924-1925 high cowl also dash differences. Note, I am not that familiar with the roadster quarter panels or back of the front seat. So I will differ to others for those parts.

Remember also that the low cowl bodies were produced by several body makers including Ford by the 1920s. Depending on who produced the body panel it may or may not fit well with a different company’s body panel.

If you do not know if all the panels came from the same body, I would recommend trying to locate a body with better sheet metal and one that the panels all came from the same body. It should be much easier to restore. Not that the body panels from different cars cannot be restored – they just take more fitting etc. Note – I do NOT know how well the Canadian 1915-1923 panels (low cowl roadster) interchange with the USA 1915-1923 year low cowl roadster model panels. I have not heard any comments on that one. Note the touring bodies changed during 1921 but the roadster bodies continued the old style longer. But from the photo on Model T Haven of a late 1922 – if that body is original to the engine – then the late 1922s at least from that body maker would have had less wood than the Beaudett 1922 style body which I believe may have continued the wide arm rests. See: http://modelthaven.com/22r.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 18, 2011 - 10:43 pm:

Thanks Hap. The 2 sides and back piece look like they are from the same rust bucket, I mean car. I didn't think the cowl was right but it came from the same lot so I took photos of it. I have an extra high hood body that I can use with it. I'm also curious how the new sheetmetal will work with the original Canadian stuff. But since I'll be using pretty much half and half, all I have to worry about is getting them joined together in the middle and fudging it accordingly. This is for a fun, "go" car not a "show" car so I'm willing to see how it all fits together. The cost of the sheetmetal from Howell's really isn't that bad since I have the rear section to finish it off. Might work out great even though I'll probably eliminate the driver's door which is neat.

Thanks again for the info.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 01:02 am:

uh-oh Craig we've opened a can of worms. your two rear 1/4s are now definitely '24-'25 and your cowl '15-'22 but wait Hap are you saying that '23 was a transition year where they had a low cowl mated to the new lower seatback style 1/4's? then craig just needs '23 only doors to make this work. Although I know you are a guru i humbly beg to differ. I think all Craig needs is R & L doors for the '23-'25 (hope you keep it canadian)and door sills. the early cowl should mate up no problem. love the pics of the original wood! as for the wood kit go for the 23-'25 kit and use the original wood from the cowl as a template


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 01:30 am:

Does anyone have sets of '15-22 and '23-25 door measurements for comparison? If there are differences then use the smaller of the two and build the sill(rocker)panels under the doors connecting the cowl and 1/4s to suit it would be really easy to fabricate yourself. There used to be kits available to convert U.S. cars to 2 doors given the option wouldn't you rather have a door? since the other 23 cowl peice is missing and what you do have really is rough i'd say go with the complete early cowl why not? I think it will look really cool and no one will notice except hardcore buffs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By "Hap" Harold Tucker on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 08:30 am:

Rik,

The more we learn the more we realize there are no "gurus" but only folks that are still learning and are willing to share some of the things they have discovered or that have been shared with them.

The doors 1915-1925 will all interchange. (The 1915-25 front doors can be rewooded and straightened and will work on a 1914 front according to Mell Miller’s wood plans). And yes the left front only works on the Canadian and UK Models. Door hinges changed sometime during 1924 and all the 1925 models I have seen have the equal length door hinges (if someone has an original 1925 with the unequal door hinges -- please let us know so we can add that to the data.).

And concerning the low cowl and the later style quarter panels. Yes, some of them clearly had the top rest hole in the panel for 1923 model year cars. That is actually what I am interested in documenting – when was the old style roadster body with the wide arm rests discontinued? We have looked at that before and I believe all the Beaudett bodies were the wide arm rest style with the top rest coming down from the top of the front seat. If someone has an exception please let us know. At: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm Bruce states the last Beaudett bodies were sold to Ford in Jul 20, 1922. On that same page he states: The “1923” style open cars were introduced in September [1922] (Touring) and October (Runabout) of 1922. While these were “1923” models, Ford often referred to them as “1922” in the parts books.

That is why I was asking if the cowl was originally part of the same car the rear quarter panes came from. If they were – then clearly the roadster would have been produced during the 1923 model year. [started in fall 1922 and ran into 1923]. What I do not know is if the 1924-25 high cowl quarters are the same as the 1923 low cowl quarter panels. They look similar – I just don’t know at this time if the are or are not the same.

Note many of the Model T parts will interchange – Ford did that on purpose. But in some cases it will show up that while they fit and function – the trim molding lines do not always line up properly etc. For example you can place a three piece narrow arm rest 1921-25 rear touring section on a 1915-20 which should have a wide arm rest - five piece rear tub. It will function fine – the rear passengers will not fall out of the car. But the body molding does not line up properly. And for the same amount of work a person can find the correct year parts to mate up with other correct year parts and in my opinion [offered for free and maybe worth a little less than that] have a much nice final product. The only additional work is finding someone willing to swap or sell you the same year range parts. Same effort – but a more accurate final product.

There isn’t a write or wrong when it comes to fixing up a T – just be safe and have fun.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap 1915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 10:40 am:

Rik I have both doors but forgot to take pictures of them. Too bad the body panels aren't worth much as-is otherwise I'd sell them so someone could preserve the Canadian body with it's drivers door. It will be worth much more (and actually usable!) if I can assemble it into a complete body, so I plan to cut off the driver's door section and attach a new front quarter. I have an extra late '23 cowl so I'll just use that to keep it all '24-25 style too. Might make it a pickup clone while I'm at it because I've always thought those were really neat.

Craig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 06:34 pm:

Wow, Bob I never knew your p.u was so a basket case at the start. amazing! saw it at Johnsons shop this year she sure is nice. You really earned that car. Have you had time to drive it much yet? If you ever want company on a drive give me a call. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way . Wa. on Tuesday, December 20, 2011 - 08:27 pm:

Thanks Mike I'll take you up on that in the spring. It only took 10 years to do and was just putting in the upholstery when my wife
past.Theres only about three miles on it,need
to get it out.
To those that are working on one,it will take time when you have family and remember that family comes frist. Enjoy the hobby.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rik van on Thursday, December 29, 2011 - 05:01 pm:

Hi Craig,
Oh I thought the cowl in the pics was canadian too. great sounds like you've got enough to get started on your roadster-pickup now its just putting the nose to the grindstone as it were. Hap thank you very much I love learning something new! in my opinion that '23 only combo(low cowl/low armrest) has to be the neatest of all. Bob and Mike Ok now i'll provide the destination. Come to Vancouver and i'll buy the beer! oops but then you won't be able to drive home lol. I'd love to ride in a T again. In the 90's I was a forest firefighter in the ok. during the fall/winter i worked in a wrecking yard on the wall of the office was a picture of an old model t all decrepit,crumbling,missing parts, rusty.....and running! yup the beverly hill-billy looking character in the pic was a former employee and drove it. i knew i had to meet that guy several visits later after drooling over his collection of T and ford stuff that he had picked up over the years of swap meets he'd pickup an engine here and some wheels there, a frame, some body parts etc. until one day he and a buddy had amassed quite a pile then they decided to start throwing these cars together....unrestored not as museum peices but as survivors sort of like building a "barn find" more like a feild find. They freed up the engines with deisel and trannyoil and rebuilt the trans with turbo 350 bands they'd put a rusty body on an old frame and throw some dried up cracked spoked wheels with tires on it so old and hard they didn't need air. So it was on a chilly fall evening after closing up the shop that we took "earl"(a 23-25 touring) out. when that rusty old engine sparked to life at the crank of a hand and that 80 yr old trans clunked into gear the dim yellow headlights lit our way into the night with all the squeaks and rattles and vibrations it was like a thrill ride risking the wrath of the local barny fife we even hit the highway and although I've driven some fast cars motorbikes etc. there is nothing like looking out onto the road (no door or fender)flying by at 40 miles an hour with the old woodspoked wheels crackling away beside you!


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