Not sure if a good deal or not. Owner wants $6000 for this car as follows:Really solid car with only rust out in pass. rear quarter. No tack wood strips but rest there and solid too as body tub was sandblasted years ago and left in grey primer. Chassis not touched and looks all '16. Correct Mae West shackles nice and tight. Tapered leaf springs show no wear into surface of the one below. Wheels are perfect in black paint and tires are old but inflated. No upholstery but new "Cartouch" set for seats and new side& kick panels in boxes. Fenders, aprons and run boards best I have ever seen for originals, do need blast and prime. ALL lamps have '15 brass rims. Motor is 1916 with June casting date. Carb is Golley G off in a box. Beutiful brass rad with no bent fins. Has brass hub fan and not worn bushings. Windshield has integral lamp brackets cast into it and its nice also. Top bows one is broken and sockets have 90% original paint, top covering is shot. Whats a fair offer ? LAST started in second world war so motor although together could be anything internally. Oh, alum 6 louver hood real straight too. Electric horn and nice coil box w/switch and wood steering wheel perfect. I don't want to over pay for this project..
Does the engine turn.
I paid $6k for a '15 in similar condition. Changed the oil, replaced the babbitt thrust washers with brass in the rear end, and enjoyed the heck out it while finishing the project. Your experience could be different. The mag might not work, it might not start with the crank (that's something to get used to!), the engine trans or rear end could be shot, etc. Mine also came with the upholstery in a box (new from the '50s or '60s), and had a new top in the box from the same time period. The body was beyond solid with original wood but had some dents. It was all '15 running gear, had early Rootlieb fenders & splash aprons, but not sure if it was a '15 body or cloned. Wheels needed badly rebuilt but I never did it.
I would offer him $5k and see what he says. If you decide to pass, I'd appreciate getting your contact info so I can check it out. (sold the '15 and now miss it enough to do something stupid)
Suggest you also look at the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/13259.html which makes it easier to tell if the approximate date range of the body. I.e. all the 1915-1920ish non electrical cars had the oil lamp brackets cast into the windshield brackets. But the 1915-1916 were different from the 1917-22 ish style. Etc. You are already familiar with Ts so you can turn over the engine and get a feel it if it is stuck or if it has compression etc. If it hasn’t been turned over since WW2 – good chance it is stuck unless someone took the time to pour oil into the spark plug holes and kept the car in dry storage etc. But it may also be able to be freed up. You probably will not know until you check/drop the inspection plate (relatively easy to do). Good luck.
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Nice find, Ed
Lamps & hood doesn't fit with the june 1916 date - if they have the same patina as the rest of the car, perhaps the engine was changed out some time in the past?
What type of pedals and hogshead does it have?
The motor turns and will move the car if I release the brake handle and pull really hard. The pedals. C & B are smooth an the reverse os ribbed and no wear. Speedo is missing glass and bezel rim. no other speedo set up pcs. No H2o pump on this car. Cast end brake rods with casting #'s show well. No paint on the long snout pan and hardly any rust either. The lamps are so nice that I could easily pass them off as NOS. Patina on he brass is old. Rims on the Kero lamps are very dull.
Model T's don't have or need water pumps so you have probably found a Model T engine in there!
Let's see some pictures!
Engine serial # 1,213,### I believe thats '16. I thought only brass on a '16 was the rad ? Body # on right riser is very visible but I didn't jot it down. The '1 style hood former is perfect even the cherry or cherry stained hood closure boards are perfect and have nice latches and springs with almost all the old paint still clinging on. Headlamps have H lenses not flat glass and straight electrical connectors on the back not angled. Seat springs are OK not great. Seat risers and tin above that cushions sit on is there and no rust out.
Engine serial # is april 1916. Strange with the june '16 cast date?
Ribbed pedals were used for part of the 1915 production but was phased out by the end of 1915 according to Bruce. Could the ribbed reverse pedal supply have lasted into 1916? Aluminum trans cover? If alu, the engine is likely a repaired mix of parts?
Bulb horn or magneto horn?
Roger, not sure about the # 3 maybe was an 8 in the serial number It definitely starts as 12 something ! ? As for the hogshead I cant say if alum ornot as floor boards obscured the top view and floor was too dirty to crawl under car at this time, its stored on concrete in a heated building tho...I am thinking that maybe someone found this car and started to restore it back in the 50's and never progressed to touching the frame and only worked on the body ?? People like the look of the '15 w/brass trimmed lamps and maybe that was what the car was made to appear as. ? There is not one piece on the car that is pitted or would be afeter a gentle sand blast.
1. From what you have shared so far it sounds like you may have purchased a car that was restored some time in the past. Rationale:
1.a. You commented "cherry or cherry stained hood closure boards" -- they would have originally been painted black and if replaced back in the teens etc. still would have been replaced with black painted wood.
1.b. Your comment is correct that originally a 1916 especially an Apr or Jun 1916 car would not normally have had brass headlamp rims or brass trim on the side lamps and tail lamps. However just about any 1916 restored in the 1950s early 1960s would have been fitted with the brass trim and called a 1915. Folks back in the 1920-30s would not have replaced a broken lamp/rim with a black one most likely.]
2. "IF" the car was a 1940s to early 1960s restoration -- they were often done by taking the best parts of several cars. Bruce's book was not yet written. Many of the restorers back then did not realize that a 1917 and later body was actually a little different from the 1915-1916 body. So they would often toss the earlier body and replace it with a better one that was the same (but actually was not exactly the same).
2.a. You can look at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html and if your body was produced by Wilison or Beaudett, there is an excellent chance that it has a date code included that will tell you the month and year the body was made. That will not determine the date of your car – but it adds a valuable clue. I.e. if the body is original to your car, then the car was not assembled before the body date. Of if it has a 1917 or later body date it will probably also have the half moon cut out which would indicate a later body was used for the restoration. Again that was very common around the 1950’s. Why rewood or put patch panels in a rust body when you could purchase a good one for very little money. My Dad did that in 1951 – purchased a 1918 touring with good wood in the body, good top bows, four new Wards Riverside tires, good running shape, for $85. It was so nice that he decided not to take the body off to “restore Blackie” our 1915 cut off.
2.b. You can date the majority of the car & chassis and get a feel for what probably happened. I.e. if it is mostly 1915 with a few 1916 parts (engine) then it could easily have started life as a 1915. If it has almost all 1918 parts (body, chassis, and a 1916 engine ) then most likely someone made the earlier car look older. [Note – that could have been done at any time and if it was done prior to restoration – the folks may have just been trying to keep the1918 or later car running by dropping in a good engine.]
3. Ford often had exceptions. That is why Bruce uses the term “typical” for a model year. For example I’m sure there are photos of the 1,000,000 chassis being assembled at 1:53 half PM on Dc 10 1915. From memory (that is dangerous) I’m 85% sure you can see aluminum hogs heads (transmission covers). Was it typical for a 1916 to have an aluminum hogs head – probably not. Did it happen – clearly it did. You can lift up the hood on either side and see the hogs head. If covered with grease -- a small screw driver will remove enough grease to see silver aluminum or dark cast iron (unless the previous owner painted it black).
Again welcome aboard and please let us know what you discover about your car. I am especially interested in any body numbers, letters, floorboard numbers or letters (usually on the underside of the front floorboards) that you may discover.
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Thanks Hap for all the good info. Actually I am not new to the Forum and T's...BUT I hardly ever posted andover the last 5 yrs or so I have reregistered 3 times to be able to post. I am not computert savy...well not much anyway and never figured out how to post pics at all !. My first T was bought in '63 and I have had MANY. Does anyone out there remember Elmers Auto Parts ( Elmer Bassage ) ? He took me under his wing and I ended up with alll the buildings full of T stuff back in the 80's. I had truck loads that were all good solid parts I am sure we made many people happy over the years as lots of rare parts were shipped out or sold at Hershey. But never had much early stuff. I do have a nice '13 but really 26/27 is my specialty. I took a left turn in the 80's and collected and restored many Studebaker Hawks, was president of local club and about 10 yrs ago deceided to go back to my roots. We bought ( wife actually) The American Eagle from Paul Larson when he brought it to the '08 Centennial. This car is 99% redone and will be on the road for '12. I read the Forum daily and really appreciate the posts from EVERYONE...!
Many years ago, I saw a Ford factory photo of a bunch of 1916 engines lined up to install into the chassis. In the middle of the lineup was one engine with an aluminum hogshead. All the others were clearly iron. The photo may have been in 'Ford Life' magazine. I know it was one that Loren Sorenson (sp?) had.
That '16 sounds like a real find! It should be a great T to have. Congratulations!
Drive carefully, and enjoy the season! W2