Another elusive missing part...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Another elusive missing part...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:13 pm:

...is the little machine screw that goes in the small hole to keep the steering gear cover from turning.


I checked the half dozen covers I could find and none of them has it. As near as I can tell, the thread is 6-40. I believe I saw one of these years ago, and none of the 6-40 machine screws I've found online has the same head. Anybody have a good picture and measurements you can post? Maybe I could make my own if I knew what I was trying to make.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:23 pm:

Mine has a set screw with a slotted head that, when screwed all the way in, is flush with the top of the steering gear cover. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:25 pm:

Yes, it's to keep the cover from unscrewing. I'm not certain of the thread size however, it's just a simple round head slotted screw. You may have to chase the threads a little with a tap to ensure that the screw will thread in nicely, especially if the cover is going on a different gear case than it came off of. Don't break the tap like I did. My cover is now locked in place with the broken end of a tap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:52 pm:

I use a 6-32 screw. The one in my 27 is chrome plated to match the cover. Been there since I bought the car 28 years ago. John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset England on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 12:53 pm:

I think the thread is 6-32 UNC. Mine has a round head and about 0.2" of thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 01:27 pm:

Most of mine have used 6-32. I had one that wanted a 6-40, but I can't remember which car that was.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holidays! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 01:46 pm:

Some of the larger Ace hardware stores have the smaller machine thread screws with a head thats close to the original. Screws that are in older electronic parts and equipment also have these type screws in them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 02:47 pm:

Steve,
I'm glad you asked, I need to find one of those for a replacement steering box. Mine is a 6-32 x 3/8" round headed brass.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 03:10 pm:

OK, I've done some checking. Of the seven covers I tried, 6-32 didn't fit in five. That leads me to suspect that the ones with 6-32 screws in them were tapped out to that size because that's what was readily available at the local hardware store. Next I tried an early Champion X electrode (6-40 thread). It went perfectly into four of the five that wouldn't take 6-32. The only oddball is the cover on my '15 roadster. Even the 6-40 wouldn't fit there. I'll try a 4-40 if I can find where I put them.

As for the head, I suspect that Jim Patrick has the right one. I'm pretty sure the one I saw years ago was like that. Again, I think all the round heads people have are probably because that's what was readily available at the local hardware store.

Maybe Larry Smith or one of the other experts on originality will set us straight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john b joyce on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 04:37 pm:

the terminal screws on the back of the switch fit the hole on the cap. john


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 04:49 pm:

Here is the pertinent portion of Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia:

t-910

Your own copy of the Encyclopedia makes a great Christmas present for any Model T fancier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 05:32 pm:

What page is that? I haven't found it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:13 pm:

Okay. I went home this afternoon and using a set of taps measured the set screw on a spare steering gear cover I have and determined that the slotted set screw is a 4-40. the hole has never been re-tapped so it is the original size and the set screw is what came with it. The same size and type slotted set screw is also on the steering gear cover of my '26 coupe. Here are a few pictures. The first picture is of the set screw, screwed almost all the way out. The rest show it screwed all the way in flush with the surface of the steering gear cover. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:25 pm:

Oops I hit the wrong button and posted too soon. Here are a few more pictures. Jim Patrick




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber Spanaway, Wa. on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 07:48 pm:

Good work Jim Thode!
I wish I could take pictures like that!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 08:26 pm:

And I thought the hole was so you could keep the gears lubricated haha. I guess I will be looking for a screw now! Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 08:35 pm:

Steve,

In the Encyclopedia, Parts.pdf file look for Page 31 of the Factory Number sort (Page 588 of 979 in the file). It is also listed on Page 137 of the Alphabetical list (by name) (Page 905 of 979 in the file).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Lawrence J. Bohlen on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 08:37 pm:

Jim,

Same screw I have on the touring.
I wonder how many of the little buggers got dropped and replaced with something else?

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, December 22, 2011 - 11:57 pm:

Ford used some 5-40 screws on the top Murphy fasteners on my 24. I found some at the local hardware store. The steering cover set screw could be 5-40. This is a standard but uncommon thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip) on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 12:13 am:

Steve, George King told me it's an odball size screw. I dont remember what it was and will find out because I need one too for my 14


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 01:45 am:

Mine stays tight without the screw but grease would pump out or the hole, so I stuck a toothpick in and snapped it off. Should fix it propperly some time I guess.

Does this screw have to go into a pre notched part of the gear case housing, or just turn it in and it will bind the threads, preventing unscrewing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 03:44 am:

The few screws that I have seen were like the one that Jim Thode posted. I use stainless steel screws on mine, they look very much like nickel plated screws. Erich, they screw into a hole that has been drilled and tapped for them. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 03:48 am:

David, yes drilled/tapped in the upper case, but what about the threaded area of the lower half? Is there a drilled area that needs to be lined up? Or is the top tightened down, then this screw turned in at whatever point the lid stopped?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 04:03 am:

Erich, yes, the hole needs to be drilled (or at least tapped) in the lower half where ever the top half is happy. If the top half is mixed with a different lower half, they don't usually match up. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 04:17 am:

That screw is considered so important by the SCVMTFC, that for their Endurance Run tech inspection, missing that screw disqualifies a T from running.
The screw treads into the cap and sits in a small cut on the outside of the gear case. Its whole purpose is too prevent the cap from working loose. The problem I always seem to have is that the cap turns on about a quarter turn too far on almost every case and cover I have tried. That leaves the cover a little wiggly which I worry would wear the threads and create a problem. It also works grease out as the cap wiggles and gets messy. Years ago, several of my good shirts ended up with grease stains on the left sleeve from reaching over to work the throttle to shift the Muncie.
I usually either cut a slot on the side of the case to match the tightened cover (puts the screw head on the side). Or I re-drill and tap threads in the cover to match the original slot (leaves the screw where it was intended to be). The original hole I usually fill with solder.
Either way, you can end up with a snug cover that doesn't work around on the threads and pump small amounts of grease out to ruin your shirt.
Drive carefully, and enjoy the holiday! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 11:23 am:

The MTFCI used to do safety inspections for every car that ran on their International Tour. I helped with inspection for many years. A car drove up to the inspection area. I looked it over carefully, then reached over and plucked the steering wheel, with the cap attached, off the steering column and handed it to the owner. He was kinda shocked. The screw was missing and the cap backed all they way off. He didn't notice it and was about to enter into 500 miles of touring over the ensuing week. Moral of the story: Make sure you've got the screw in place!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 12:22 pm:

Excellent point. Hate to "assume" all is well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 12:48 pm:

So, from the factory, is there a "standard" position (like 6 o'clock) for the screw, or was the hole in the cover drilled before plating, and the case drilled at assembly?
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 01:02 pm:


On all the cases I've seen, the notch for the screw is at TDC. I don't know the details of manufacture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 01:05 pm:

My '26 coupe is at TDC. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska - Denver Colorado on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 10:44 pm:

For what it is worth I checked my 14 Touring, 26 Coupe and 23 Hack today. All were 6-32 thread.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Nicholson on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 01:22 am:

Hmmmm, Having a screw in there takes away a good practical joke. One day I was driving with a good friend of mine and I was driving slowly and I said to him, "boy, this steering just doesn't feel right" and I handed him the steeing wheel and said "how does it feel to you???" After a few choice words from him, we had a good laugh and tightened it up and went home.

Now before anyone gets their briefs in a bind, I was in a safe situation on a private road, going slowly and the worst situation would be turning off into a level grass area. "don't try this at home, I am a professional!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 12:46 pm:


6-32 x 3/8


Cut off the head.


Cut a slot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 12:46 pm:


Done.


Install.

Remove cover and case. Have them replated with new nickel.

Make a new screw to replace the one you lost while your parts were being replated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 01:32 pm:

Steve... Scotch Tape, 8-1/2 X 11 paper and a thumb tack for the wall. Why did you cut the head off? Couldnt get a set screw in there? ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 01:46 pm:

Steve
Where do you get them replated?
Thanks

Feliz Navidad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 01:47 pm:

Bill,
Allen set screws were not a part used on Model T's. A modern allen head set screw just would not be right.

The first manufacture of an internal-wrenching hexagon drive of which records have surfaced is that of circa 1911 by the Standard Pressed Steel Company. From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_key

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 02:09 pm:

I think "Cabin Fever" must be setting in again this winter. How else could one simple screw get that many posts.
I have never spent more than 5 minutes on any of my cars removing or replacing that screw.
Yes it is important, if that cover comes off while driving, you are in a world of trouble.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 02:12 pm:

Kirk, dunno. I haven't got to that part yet. The last time I had any plating done was when I lived in California thirty years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 03:06 pm:

Bill,
Allen set screws were not a part used on Model T's. A modern allen head set screw just would not be right.

The first manufacture of an internal-wrenching hexagon drive of which records have surfaced is that of circa 1911 by the Standard Pressed Steel Company. From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_key

Jim
I know, I know... its those darn judges again!! The first thing they do is get out the jewelers loupe and bright flashlight and look at that screw! When you see them nodding their heads in agreement and simply moving to the next T in line you know theyve found your secret and simply moved on with a "FAILURE" under your belt LOL. Mine has the correct round head slotted screw.
The trick is when you see them headed in your direction is to immediately point out something special, unique, and correct on your particular car to sway them off track. Point out the correct oil drain gasket maybe... ;-)) Merry Christmas; Im fitting the coil ring right now and have to pull the trans back off for a shim change. I have a tite .005 on the bottom plus the motor is sitting on the deck right now... that means its upside down...
KALA CHRISTUYANA!!! Thats Merry Christmas in Greek!! ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Langevin , Grants Pass , Ore on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 08:24 pm:

Gee , Guys , I`ve got lots of various old machines around here with slotted set screws in them . A set screw , by definition , doesn`t have to be an Allen-screw type . As far as entertaining the car show judges , fill the hole with some graphite grease , and wipe it smooth with the top of the steering gear cover . If they ABSOLUTELY have to see what kind of set screw is in there , let `em get a toothpick and dig out the grease to see !! Of course , you could do as I have done in the past , avoid being Judged at all costs . I had a friend that was a judge often at the Pebble Beach Concours D`elegance . When he got home after showing one of his OWN cars , if he won a trophy , Otto would just throw it in a wooden shipping crate in his storage shed . And I mean THROW !! On top of all the rest in there , racing trophies , Pebble Beach trophies , too . When Otto died , that crate of trophies went out to the dump . The best place for them , I think !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 09:13 pm:

I think this is a snowballing problem. The cat will be out of the bag when the judge sees the allen wrench set in the tool kit.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 09:24 pm:

and the duct tape... do tell!!!! ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wes Nelson ........Bucyrus, MO on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 10:09 pm:

I have bought 4-40 and 6-32 screws at a hobby shop that is equipped to sell rc planes and cars. They are common in that arena.


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