Lowering questions,want to know before I cut.

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: Lowering questions,want to know before I cut.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 06:56 pm:

Allright,I have this stuff assembled up so I can fiqure exactly how much to lower the rear of the frame.

I am concerned that for some reason i can not fiqure out exactly how much I lowered it.Seems I come up with a different fiqure every time.
Look at these and give me you all's input.
Also,I am concerned about clearance of the rear radius rods and frame,from what I can tell there will still be some.But will it be enough? I am thinking I lowered it about 3.25 to 3.5 inchs.Am I close>?How can I check for sure?Hate to sound stupid but better to ask before,not after.











Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 07:38 pm:

Im down 5 inches front and back and there seems to be plenty (6 inches) of rear radius rod clearance. Your difference on the front is the difference between the top of the axle and the bottom of the spring perch. I made a horizontal cross member for mine. Dropped 5 inches, BUT, that also moved the axle forward 1-1/2". ws




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 07:42 pm:

The final side view... ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska - Denver Colorado on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 08:06 pm:

Mack,

For what is worth I would not cut anything without having the chassis complete with motor and body set on it. If you cut now what will happen when you assemble it and find out the front end sits lower with the heavy power plant in it? I would also add some weight in the seats to approximate passengers before deciding how much to lower it. Just my .02.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 08:24 pm:

Thanks Bill,your way of putting it gave me the perspective i needed to fiqure out how much I did lower it.Now that says that I lowered the front by 2.5 inchs with the bracket.From what i have read,reversing spring eyes gives a inch.So my total is 3.5 inchs.Correct? sorry for sounding dumb,I have had alot of off topic problems and haveing problems concentrating.
Paul,I was working under the assumption that if I lowered the frame at the back the same as I did the front,it would equal out.Hum,I will keep studieing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska - Denver Colorado on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 08:35 pm:

Mack,

A Speedster is going to have different weight distribution on the chassis than a car with a stock body on it. Again just my .02.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Friday, December 23, 2011 - 09:58 pm:

If you remove a roadster body and put a speedster body on the chassis without lowering the chassis there will be no great problem.
So if you lower the front and rear of the chassis the same amount what's the worry?
I have built 3 speedsters and always lowered them 5 inches front and rear. I am working on the 4th now.
If you remove a touring body from a T chassis the rear of the frame does not raise up a foot. Half inch maybe. So when you rework the rear spring and leave out a couple of leaves you take care of that.
Adjustments can readily be made after the car is otherwise finished.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 02:25 am:

I am working on speedster number six (doesn't necessarily mean I know what I am doing). I agree with Aaron. Lower the same front and rear. You don't want the finished car to be lower in the rear than the front. The front should be a little lower, but not a lot. At the MOST, lower the rear an inch more than the front, but equal should be good.

This car was hastily thrown together to make the Run. The rear was lowered, the front wasn't. But it was a great day even though we didn't finish the Run. The car was later redone and looked much better!
Drive carefully, and enjoy Christmas! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 06:52 am:

Mack,

For what is worth I would not cut anything without having the chassis complete with motor and body set on it. If you cut now what will happen when you assemble it and find out the front end sits lower with the heavy power plant in it? I would also add some weight in the seats to approximate passengers before deciding how much to lower it. Just my .02.

Paul


I almost agree Paul... I have the engine pan and rear end all bolted in place but more for alignment purposes. I climbed up on the frame and jumped on it with little movement (Im 265). I also took a million measurements before doing anything to maintain positions after cutting. I did very little cutting except for some rear X member tabs and did NO WELDING on the frame. I lowered both ends 5 inches by the tape measure.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 07:27 am:

Thanks fellows,I just have been haveing off topic problems and was working on this to help clear my head and danged if it didnt confuse me.
I am of the thinking if i lower both ends evenly,it would work.Due to the 3,5 at the front,I may just do 3.25 at the rear.That should allow me to put a ballast weight back there if needed to maintain traction and it be level.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Butterworth on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 08:34 am:

Mack , I would lower the rear 1 1/2 inches less than the front . I have lowered at least 20 T chassis and found it works . You might be able to get that much without cutting the frame . Reverse spring eye , dearch the spring and remove 2 leaves . I havent tried it but earlier rear spring perch turned upside down might work also .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 12:21 pm:

I ended up 8" lower in front with a fabricated Z-bracket and 6,5" rear with the Antique T Motor Sports llc bracket, reversed spring eyes and minus two leafs.
I would like to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Have not written much at all but read several times a day and have learned a lot about my fantastic 1923 Model T.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 12:26 pm:

Forgot to tell that the distance between rear bones and frame is 1,5", in my setup. That will probabley do fine on a flat street without any speed bumps. I have 6-3/4" up to oil plug.
Sorry for the crappy pictures.
/Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 06:02 pm:

OK,I had looked about a older spring perch for the rear to lower it.But I was afraid the spring would rub the axle houseing.Looks like,that perch would give me a inch.with 1/2 inch clearance.Perhaps that is ok? If so,I will strongly consider doing that over cutting.
Ok,The top 2 spring leaves,little short things,I can see removeing those without hurting much.that gives me a half inch lower.

Dearching the spring,Help me learn and understand more about that please.
thanks for all the help.
My dad keeps telling me,dont cut that frame.Well,with no more than I need to lower it I may not have to.
thanks for the help and ideas,and keep them rolling in!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 06:25 pm:

Wasn't there something, in a previous post, about the limit (by some state law) that any part of the car could be from the pavement? I was thinking of it in reference to the oil pan to ground distance.

On lowering the rear axle, there's the method of putting the spring in front of the rear axle which doesn't require cutting the frame. Laurel sold brackets like that. There are some photos on the Tulsa MTFCA site (link below).

http://mtfctulsa.com/ABC_Bodies/chassis_restoration.htm

One other method is to make a new rear crossmember that has more drop to it. There would be a limit to that because after so much drop, the spring could contact the crossmember.

Removing leaves is pretty risky if you have fenders. With 2 of us in a Rootlieb "fendered" speedster (lowered 3-1/2") the tires are rubbing the fenders on a mild bump. I've jacked the fenders up some more but the tires still rub the fenders. I think it is time to put spring leaves back in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 06:35 pm:

This will be fenderless
I looked closely with a older spring bracket,here is a question,it does look like it will move the hole for the spring shackle away from the brake houseing a inch as well.I am thinking this could be a problem.
Does someone have apicture of the older spring perch being used this way?
Thanks.
The crossmember top being raised is another option I am looking at.But as you pointed out,there is a limit to that.I will study all these options.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 06:49 pm:

OK I also had a brain toot.
Make a set of spring shackles longer.Useing grade 8 bolts and 3/8ths plate.
Should be able to get a inch or so from that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Butterworth on Saturday, December 24, 2011 - 07:06 pm:

Mack , give me a call .. I have done this many times . Send me a message and I will give you my number .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 12:47 pm:

Mack, you asked for "ideas",.....here's one I've always had that would be an easy way to install an auxillary transmission, AND lower the rear end. Maybe some of my wild idea might give you an idea:

I always thought that instead of cutting/shortening the driveline to install a Warford or such, a guy could find an old frame with the rear crossmember in good shape, cut the frame rails a couple feet forward of the rear crossmember, and just bolt the two short sections of frame rail (with crossmember still attached) to the top of your existing and totally intact frame. (U-bolts would even avoid having to drill any new holes in your existing frame and your Dad would love it!) This would postition the new crossmember behind and about 4" higher than the main frame crossmember. If you wanted a couple inches more "drop" than the width of the frame rail, you could use spacer blocks for the additional "drop" between the top of your existing frame rails and the bottom of the short sections of frame rail that you are adding.

Of course, this gives you an additional foot of wheelbase, however, the added length would make the speedster look lower, due to the added length. The neat thing is that you would leave your existing frame totally stock, and it would "flex" just like Henry designed it, and the added 2nd new crossmember would just adds strength. Just a thought,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 01:38 pm:

And you would not have to shorten the driveline if you put in a Warford or other trans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 03:12 pm:

OK,today,I switched the top 3 springs down to the bottom of the stack and retightened everything.As she sits in these pictures,the rear is 2.5 inchs higher than the front.To be honest,I kinda like the stance as it is.I just swapped the springs,so that spaceing and such would remain the same for the clamps and such.This saved me the trouble of makeing spacers.
I am waiting on a phone call later about some ideas,but I am thinking a pair of shackles made a half inch "wider"to lower the spring a half inch,will get it about 2 inchs higher in the back and then leave as is.I may want to drive this car over rougher areas than paved roads and I was also afraid of dragging the oil pan if I loaded it on a trailer.So I didnt go as low as I could have.And,I have other frames and pieces,that could make yet another if I really want something drastic.Which I think,I would a TT frame on my next 1 anyhow.I Never did get any other info from the man that made a speedster frame with a TT chassis.I was hopeing to get ideas from his work.

Opionions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 06:07 pm:

Harold, you got me thinking too. I've never built a speedster, but hope to sometime soon as I have all the spare parts. I was offered a bunch of frames by someone and took 2 of them that were straight, but left the other 4-5 that had bends in the side rails. I hadn't thought of cutting them off and using them as you suggest. Just don't tell my wife I'm going to go out and get some more "junk"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 09:36 pm:

Doc and other T'ers Happy Safe New Years new email address danuser88@ktis,net


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration