New rear axle bearings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2011: New rear axle bearings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 11:27 am:

Several days ago I was pulling the rear outer axle bearings to install new inner seals. The bearing came out easily but to my surprise they were the new type bearings without the spiral groves. (and NO inner seals too!)

They miked out perfect. But the question is, should I keep them or start looking for the older style Hyatt bearings?

What will happen if I keep them, do they wear quicker or fail catastrophically?

Thanks in advance

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 11:47 am:

Bud:


Merry Christmas !!

For safety's sake, just chuck those solid rollers for good used Ford/Hyatt spirals.

You don't want to know whAt happens in a inferior bearing failure, especially when you're the one who is driving.

Be Safe !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 11:55 am:

Do not use them. The origional bearing rollers were spring steel wound into a roller. This allows the rollers to flex if there is a slight misalignment in the rear end which is very likely. The new solid roller bearings will not flex and instead will break apart locking up or breaking the axle shaft which will very likely cause an accident. Origional bearings are easy to find and are fairly cheap. What conditon are your axle shafts in?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 12:05 pm:

..... and besides, the originals have 8 rollers..... more bearing contact at more points.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 03:38 pm:

Bud, I know that many will disagree but do not be afraid to use the solid roller bearings. If your housing are straight there will be no catastrophic failures or bearing breakup. You said yourself the bearings showed no wear or damage. I will be the first to agree that the original Hyatt Roller Bearings are a superior design. However, I do not remember hearing of a solid roller bearing failure or breaking up of the rollers as suggested here. This is pure heresay. First, There is no need for the bearing to be flexable. The bearing is four inches long. No axle tube is going to bend in four inches. Most bends occur near the center of the tube. This can put an undue stress on the axle, bearing and sleeve but that is not the fault of any of those parts and the tube should be straightened. The bearing grooves were intended to move lubricant in an open bearing. With the addition of inner seals the outer bearings become sealed bearings and solid rollers can easily move lubricant in a sealed bearing. I know of no modern sealed bearing that has grooved rollers or ball bearings. The only problem with the new solid roller bearings is that they are too hard. They measure about C60. They should be about C40-C45. We have talked with the supplier of these bearings and he said that the source will not make any changes. That is why we manufacture all of our parts in the USA where we can have control on quality. We have rebuilt near a hundred rear axles using the solid roller bearings and have had no failures or complaints. Any way, if you cannot find any good original Hyatt bearings to use do not be affraid to use the new solid bearings until something better comes along.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 04:55 pm:

Why would you want to run somthing that is known to be inferior than an origional bearing? The origionals are not hard to find or expensive. A good origional Hyatt bearing can be bought for less than a new roller bearing. I personaly know a man who had one of the solid roller pinion bearings come apart. Also the bearing is not grooved for lubricant distribution. The rollers are made of spring steel wound into a roller. The grooves are simply incidental. Email John Danuser I'm sure he has lots of them.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 05:00 pm:

I should mention that the pinion bearing that broke was a repro hyatt and not one of the fun projects bearings.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Sutton on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 05:15 pm:

One breakage does not equal an inferior product. Do you know of more than that? Just curious.

Yes, I also try to run original parts like thses (axles, bearings, clutch disc shoes, pittman arms, etc) where the steel might be better. However if I have to use a reproduction part, I'm not clutching the steering wheel with a death grip KNOWING I'm going to die any moment. I doubt we need to think that way.

Have any of the T-100 cars had a serious breakage with their new stuff? They have surely had some miles put on them since '03. Again, I don't know the answer but would like to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 05:47 pm:

Craig, Check this tread out. Langs even advises that it is best to not use the repro bearings.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/143432.html

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 06:35 pm:

Actually the "grooves" were a result of the manufacturing process. A strip wound up in a spiral will have a visible(and through)gap from one turn of the strip to the next. You can see exactly the same feature in cardboard tubes manufactured from spiral wound stock.

If the "grooves" moved lube, it was an incidental benefit.

Hyatt made them this way and Ford bought them by the tens of millions because they were CHEAP.

The exact same designs can be found in early non Ford transmissions where no such "flexibility" was needed, supporting as they did short rigid shafting in compact cases. They were used in these places for the same reason - economy.

J.O.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 06:51 pm:

Having taken apart many Ford and non-Ford rear axles with grooved Hyatts in all type conditions, to me the great advantage of those grooves is the ability to "absorb" grit and gear debris as no solid bearing can. The same conditions in solid bearings and things start shattering bigtime because they run out of "room" and start jumping and popping!

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 07:11 pm:

Stephen. I, like you would never want to run any inferior part. But it has not been shown conclusively that the bearings are inferior, only too hard which will cause the axle and sleeve to wear faster. There are a lot of these bearings in use with no failures. Inferior is only hearsay because people are in love with the Hyatts. But lets be fair there is no conclusive evidence that the part is inferior or dangerous to use. I am not in love with the part. In fact it could be improved. As for a bearing coming apart. I have seen many Hyatts with loose and wobbly cages. It's just the nature of the beast weather new or original. As for the Drive shaft spool bearings . They usually fail after a Drive shaft sleeve has desentigrated causing a bearing failure. Someone looked into making new Hyatts in England but the cost was very prohibative.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 07:13 pm:

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Heatherly on Sunday, December 25, 2011 - 08:01 pm:

If the new bearings are too hard and wear the axle faster why use them? Seriously, what advantage do the new bearings have over the origionals?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 01:06 pm:

The new bearings are not as good as the originals. They fail very rapidly, even with the newer hardened sleeves.

This is the driveshaft assembly from Bud and Ginny Scudder's 1927 Fordor. The new solid roller bearing ate the sleeve and then came loose from their cage. The bearing rollers locked on the driveshaft and it broke. The car, Bud and Ginny went down a hill backwards with no brakes. Both were severely injured. The car was totaled.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 01:40 pm:

Stephen, There is no advantage. It is simply a matter of availability. The problem is the new bearings are not as bad as claimed and hundreds of people have used them with success. The only failures I have seen reported on this forum were not axle bearings but were Drive Shaft Pinion bearings. Those failures were not due to defective bearings but due to the failure and desentigration of the Drive Shaft Sleeves. This is a common problem due to improper installation of the sleeve. The new harder bearings will cause axles and sleeves to wear faster but is not excessive. They will not crack or break into pieces as asserted. All we are saying is these bearings can be used successfully untill something better becomes available. The manufacture of new parts is a risky and expensive business. There are many critics but I don't see any of them stepping up to make a part. Most parts suppliers are going overseas to reduce costs but they then loose control of design and quality. We have been fortunate to find a local machine shop to make our parts that has a reasonable shop rate. That way all parts are manufactured to our specs and we have total control on quality at a reasonable cost.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 01:52 pm:

My brother has a new (at time of installation) solid driveshaft roller in his T. He tore the rear end apart for some other reason after running it for thousands of miles. It still looked like brand new. He still has it in his T, with perhaps another 50,000 miles on it.

Does this prove solid rollers are OK? Maybe no, but I'd say this one is OK.

Does it disprove that solid rollers are always bad? Yes it does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 01:53 pm:

would it be possible to make a grease flow groove in the new style bearings or will that weaken the casings ??

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 01:55 pm:

Royce, You apparently posted just before I did. That is the worst driveshaft failure I have seen. The sleeve is totally gone and the Drive shaft is broken in two. Very hard to tell what went first. Please note. The new bearing cage came apart but all solid rollers are in tact. They did not break up as asserted. I would guess that either the sleeve or drive shaft failed first and chewed up all of the other parts. Sleeve failures are very common. Once the sleeve goes nothing is properly supported and everything gets chewed up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 02:00 pm:

David, Yes, oil grooves could be ground into the solid bearings but I do not believe that it is necessary and it would certainly weaken them increasing the chance of failure so why bother. See Toms post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 02:59 pm:

Glen,

Bud took that rear end apart about 6 months prior to the driveshaft failure. He called me and said I needed to come over and see the disaster in his rear axle. All the axle bearings were the new solid roller type, and all of them were loose in their cages and the sleeves were screwed up badly. The housings and axles were ruined too.

However the ring gear and differential looked OK so Bud put it back together with a different set of axles / housings but the same differential, using NOS Hyatt bearings and sleeves. I still wish we had thought to take the driveshaft apart. Neither of us even considered that the driveshaft might also have one of those bearings in it. In fact I did not even know there was such a thing!

Really the old original Hyattts are the way to go. Second choice would be one of the sealed roller bearing cartridges that replace the bearings and sleeves. I would not put those solid roller type bearings in any car I wanted to last very long.

For the pinion spool assembly either original T parts or the John Regan / Fun Projects spool is the way to go.

My favorite:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 05:06 pm:

The first tour I took in a Model T, I broke the driveshaft. It looked just like the one in that picture, but I had the original Hyatt bearing. The bearing was not damaged and I reused it on another driveshaft. The previous owner had welded the driveshaft right in front of the pinion bearing! It was only welded around the outside so, it failed when I shifted to low from a signal. They sure roll easily when there is no drag from the engine! Fortunately, I had Rocky Mountain brakes and had no accident. It could be that the sleeve cracked on the one pictured and that is what caused the bearing to lock up and break the shaft. I saved the end from the driveshaft, the end with the threads on it. Same threads as the rear axle. It makes a good knock off puller for the rear wheels. I use the screw on puller and if I can't get it off with that, I screw the nut part way off and screw in the driveshaft end. I screw it to where the end of the axle hits the end of the driveshaft, so the knocking is not against the threads, but the end of the axle. Jack up the opposite wheel leaving the one I want to pull on the ground. Leave the brake off. Then a good blow to the broken end of the driveshaft, and it usually comes loose.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 05:36 pm:

I tore one down to put a Ruckstel in a 26 that had the new solid bearings on the axles. They had worn the new shells real bad. I chunked them and pulled some used inner axel bearings and sleves and have run several national tours and lots of local mileage with no problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 05:40 pm:

Royce, I have seen many Hyatt bearings with loose cages. This is not a problem of the new bearings only. They all have that problem. Now, take a look at the photo you posted. The Drive shaft sleeve is loose on the driveshaft. It should be a press fit against the backside of the pinion gear. Instead it is loose and about 3/4 in. toward the U-Joint. Just another Sleeve waiting to desentigrate. Then we can blame the solid roller bearing. If the solid roller bearings were all that bad everyone would be having problems, but their not. I am not trying to defend a defective part but I believe people are trying to make the problem much worse than it really is without really looking at the facts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Monday, December 26, 2011 - 05:53 pm:

Jim, Were your sleeves the new, so called hardened sleeves? If so, that was part of your problem. While the new solid roller bearings are harder than they should be, the new harden sleeves are actually softer than the original Ford. They measure C18. Ford's sleeves were C26. I talked with the manufacturer but he would not make them harder. So you see we have problems everywhere. If I had the power and resources I would correct all of these problems.


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