Advice on getting started with a Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Advice on getting started with a Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

Rod,
Whereabouts near Sacramento are you? I am about an hour North East of Sacto.
A good title with a car helps, but in Califunny, almost anything before WWII can be titled with some effort. It would never stop me from buying a car I wanted as long as I truly believed the sale was legitimate. I would factor in a small amount for the cost and hassle to clear title. And I have walked past things if I felt uneasy about the seller.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 07:31 pm:

Difficulty or lack thereof in getting a title varies by state, or by DMV office, or by individual clerk. My Packard had the wrong serial number on the title due to an engine change, and I was dreading the ordeal of getting it corrected. A young lady in the San Pedro DMV office had the paperwork done and me out of there in less than ten minutes. Another person, or another office, may have been a major hassle. Here in Kansas, I've registered two out-of-state vehicles with only a bill of sale (one of them hand-written) with absolutely no trouble. I expect some members of your local club can give you some guidance on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 07:11 pm:

Rod,
Titles are nice to get with a car and it may save you jumping through some hoops to get a title but I have never heard of anyone not being able to get a title for a car that does not have one.

Some ideas here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/227157.html?1312132087
and
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/227341.html?1312312203

Really depends on your location on how much of a hassle it will be.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rod rozman on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 06:48 pm:

Thanks everyone for the help. Lots of things to check out.

One more question. Do I need to worry about titles for these old cars when I buy one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 04:27 pm:

Here are the California pages for the two national clubs.

http://mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm#ca

http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15#C A

Now that I've looked at both pages, I see one of our regular guys is right there. He should get you off to a good start.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 04:12 pm:

Rod:

I knew relatively little about Model T's until I purchased mine in 2006. Having grown up in the Horseless Carriage Club, I was exposed to a lot of different eras of cars and models. My dad loved the brass era and earlier; I, however, liked the cars from the twenties and thirties, especially the Model A. I knew that I wanted a closed car, having gotten windblown in an open car as a kid. I really like the 1927 tudor that I own. Being a closed car, I can drive in all conditions and take the family along for a ride. The later cars have the advantage of a larger transmission brake, as well as a larger handbrake. In addition, with three of the body styles, the gas tank was put above the engine, providing the necessary fuel, even on a low tank of gas. I drive my car all the time in heavy traffic, so this year I added vintage-looking turn signals and Rocky Mountain Brakes. They certainly are not necessary to enjoy a T, but definitely made an improvement. My advice, find a body style that you like and one that mechanically suits your needs. There is enough variety in the years that they were manufactured to find something that will appeal to you, I'm sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rod rozman on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 04:11 pm:

I live near Sacramento, Ca. Where is the closest club?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen on Sunday, January 01, 2012 - 09:07 am:

Rod,

I like this link to "monitor" prices. It shows both Craigslists nationally and ebay.

http://www.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=cp&itm=model+t&loc=&fil=&ys=1908&ye=19 27&ps=&pe=&pgs=100&submit=++++go++++

Good luck and Happy New Year,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez - Templeton, CA on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 07:22 pm:

Greetings Rod,

This forum is a good place to start. Everyone here has an opinion and will help you get started they will also be here when you have questions. My advice is to join a local chapter then take your time finding a Ford. (Usually they find you!) Good luck and enjoy the best hobby on earth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By rod rozman on Friday, December 30, 2011 - 11:47 pm:

I just visited the old Ford Piquette plant in Detroit for the first time. What a great tour.
I've caught the bug to get a model T... but I want to do it as cheaply as possible. Doesn't need to be fancy... but needs to be mostly functional. Something to tinker with over the next few years. What advice can you give me? What years are the most plentiful for existing cars and parts? Where's a good source for cars and parts?(complete or partial cars)
Any advice appreciated. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield, KS on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 12:27 am:

There are two main roads into T world. One is to buy a "project", which can range from a pile of parts to a mostly complete vehicle that needs to be restored. The other road is to buy a pretty good drivable car and make improvements as needed while enjoying the car. I've been down both roads, and prefer the latter. The ideal situation is to have a good car to enjoy using and a project to work on.

In general, the older it is the more it costs. The 1920-1927 T's are most plentiful and most reasonably priced.

I've bought a project and a running driver from ads in the Vintage Ford. Ads there and in the Model T Times are one place to look. Hemmings Motor News always has several model T ads (thirty this month). There's also Craig's List and ebay. Even when you're not buying, those will give you an idea what things are selling for. Also check the classified ad section on this website. Occasionally people will announce here on the forum that they have a car for sale.

Patience pays.Don't be in too big a hurry. Decide what you want (roadster, touring, coupe, etc.) and watch for it. You'll find that prices vary pretty widely, depending on year, condition, and location of the vehicle. You're likely to get a better deal from an individual than from a dealer who has to cover his overhead.

Here's a good previous discussion of values and prices: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/142749.html?1274909368


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 12:29 am:

Post where you are and someone will point you toward a lacal club. Join it and ask away. These guys are the greatest people in the world and will steer you right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, December 31, 2011 - 02:02 am:

If available, the best thing you can do is get involved with a local club or group. Ask a lot of questions. Many old car clubs tend to be stand-offish to newcomers (there are good reasons for that, but). Model T clubs tend to be the exception. They seem to love to inflict the illness- I mean welcome newcomers.
Figure out what it is you want and what you want out of it. Then pursue that. There are many paths. Horseless carriage/brass era is my favorite. Nickel age or black era Ts are great. You can try to keep them as close to original as reasonable. Some, like me, like to keep them very close to their original era, but with vintage accessories. Others like to update the cars with modern brakes, ignition and more. A few go so far as to paint their car pink (yuck, but I've seen it). One nice thing about the model T community, is that there is room for most of them (as long as you don't go so far as to be a rod of some sort).
So, welcome to the affliction! This is a the best place for information (you just can't see and touch as well as in person).
Drive carefully, and Happy New Year! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, January 02, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

I have 3 Model T's. The first one I got was running, but needed some work. I was new to Model T's and since we don't see them running around every day, I bought the first one I saw with a for sale sign on it. It turned out to have a lot more problems than I thought. After the second "big bang" I decided to completely restore from the frame up. Well I got a good running car out of it. What I thought was "Orange peel" in the paint turned out to be rust pits, and the rust was so bad, that I decided not to buy new body parts because I would have to replace the entire body to get it perfect, so I used a lot of filler and painted and upholstered it and although it is a rust bucket, people still say it looks "beautiful"

The second one I bought was a big pile of rusty parts, but the body was very straight and most of the rust was just on the surface. It sandblasted up very nicely. I did some overhauling on the engine and put everything together. This one looks the best of all 3, but the engine is quite noisy. I should have done a complete rebuild.

The third one I bought looked very good and the paint and upholstery is quite good for an older restoration. It has very good sheetmetal. It was restored in the 60's but got little use during that time since. I put on new tires, and touched up a few places on the paint, but otherwise the body looks good. I did have babbit repoured in the rods and the engine sounds quite good. I have, though, had to pull the transmission twice. Both times cracked low drum. I finally got it to work and think the transmission problem is fixed. The low band was too tight and only worked properly if I left it loose and removed the floorboard. I bent the pedal up some and got it to work above the floorboard, and so far haven't had any more transmission problems. I am gradually taking it on longer trips until I get the confidence to take on a week long tour.

Anyway, take your time when looking at a car before buying, and maybe get someone with experience to go with you. Even then, expect the unexpected.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keisha Smith on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 05:12 am:

Model T is actually one of my favorite when it comes to Ford.:-) Aside from that, I also love Ford because the company had done an excellent job of improving gas mileage requirements in its automobiles. I do not even have to buy a hybrid to get something fuel efficient. I used a site I came across to help me find a Ford in Brooklyn. You can check out this site here for more info: Courtesy Cars Brooklyn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 08:12 am:

I'm not clicking on it. Sounds fishy to me. Her profile says she's in Chicago. (?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 08:34 am:

Rod,
We're all different and worry about different things. I've seen some folks on here who wouldn't leave their driveway until the paperwork was straight. I bought my 1st T 35 years ago. I now have 6, and have never had a legitimate title, tag or registration on any of them until this year. You can have them insured without having them registered. Find one that you like. Tourings are nice because you can carry extra people and your family can enjoy with you. TT's are too slow, you'll get frustrated early on. Speedsters are kind of a specialty item that your family can't fit in safely. For the first one, one that drives would be best--enjoy as you learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 08:43 am:

Mike W.
Wonder i that picture on her profile is really her? If so. WOW


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 10:45 am:

Richard -- That's another thing that seems fishy about this one. Plus, I've never heard of a Caucasian named Keisha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill dugger on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 11:36 am:

Guys and Gals": I went to DMV got the necessary paper work fill it out with "Description and engine #. Had both verified by CHP and took only one to the DMV and really did not need to as they never looked at it. Paid the fees and was gone in less than one hour. I have on the '19 Yom plates, and the Hack vanity plates "MYTHACK" and it was a piece of cake to get it all done. Was fearful that they would ask for a compete listing of the parts and labor cost, nope, did not happen.
I did however use a different office of DMV, as the Redding, Ca, is a bunch of do dos..
As one of our former CHP officers always says "go out and enjoy the ride" and in this case a Model T!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 02:29 pm:

Rod

It also depends on your size. I have a touring and a speedster. A long ride in the speedster is hard on your legs because you ride with your legs out in front of you.

I had a chance to sit in a truck and I felt really cramped, so I am not too interested in a truck anymore.

Need to go for a ride or drive a Tudor or a Fordor to see how I like those.

Just my thoughts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 03:10 pm:

Mike,
I know two Caucasian ladies named Keisha....one is an assistant DA here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 05:56 pm:

Well, there could be some in Auburn.... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 06:11 pm:

I'm the exact opposite Wayne. No title, no sale. In fact the first thing I do is flip the title over to my name before anything is done to the car. There's a lot of OK guys out there and there's some s.o.b.'s too. I haven't met one on a T sale yet but I never slobber over a car either. There's too many of them out there to get nuts over one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Sanders-Auburn Al on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

lol, Mike.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Danial - Veneta OR US Earth Solar System on Monday, October 22, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

With you Charlie. After having gone through the wringer twice in years past, I won't even consider a car without a title under normal circumstances.

Here in Oregon they have made it almost (but not quite) impossible to transfer a vehicle without a title. It was done under the guise of trying to stop the car thief. Well, car thefts haven't let up but the state sure is make a haul on untitled car transfers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 03:30 am:

Model T Fords come in three basic flavors; the "brass cars" built between 1908 and 1916; the "steel cars" built between 1917 and 1925 which were painted overall black including the radiators; and the "improved cars" built in 1926 and 1927, which, though available once again in some nice colors, were still powered by the same basic Brass Era 4-banger and 2-speed planetary transmission, and were still stopped by the same type of seriously outdated, single-drum, drive-train brake. Most if not all of the brass Fords made between 1908 and 1911 had wooden bodies. A changeover was made to sheet metal-covered wooden frames midway through the 1912 model year.

Brass cars command a much higher price than the steel or improved cars. The earlier vintage brass cars are worth much more than the later brass cars and even between back-to-back model years, like 1912 and 1913, the 1912 car will command a significantly higher price than the 1913 car. It's no surprise, then, that the 1915 and 1916 model year cars are the least expensive of the brass cars (fetching somewhere in the neighborhood of $17,000 for a very good daily driver with good paint, upholstery and top, in good mechanical condition).

This pricing principle does not hold true for the "steel cars," all of which are worth about the same price, assuming identical body style (touring, roadster, etc.) and equal condition. As far as daily-drivers are concerned, a fair steel car might run $5,000; a good one, $10,000 and a creampuff might fetch $13,000 (oh, and by the way, I'm not talking about show cars that win trophies at sanctioned Antique Automobile Club of America competitions. Prices for those rolling works of art—whether brass or steel—are astronomical and you wouldn't dare drive one in traffic).

The "improved cars" enjoy upgrades like balloon tires, geared-down steering and slightly better brakes. In terms of price, they're worth about the same as the black cars, but look so similar to the Model A Ford that you almost might as well get one of those and enjoy its greater cruising speed and highway capability.

As originally manufactured, the earlier Model T's were lighter and had slightly more power. They do perform better than the later cars, but that isn't really saying very much. The Model T is not a highway car. Its best cruising speed is about 35 mph — 40, if you don't mind abusing the engine. That means most of your afternoon drives will pretty much be limited to a forty or fifty-mile radius. Taking a Model T beyond that distance involves either getting out of bed earlier or towing the car on a trailer. That having been said, in the summer of 2009, fifty-four Model T Fords drove from New York to Seattle. Traveling in caravan is much easier, safer and more fun than going it alone.

For reasons of simplicity (and perhaps a reluctance on the part of Mr. Ford to pay royalties to those who held patents on more conventional accessories), the Model T had some basic equipment unique unto itself. This included a flywheel-mounted, low-voltage magneto; 4-coil ignition and a 2-speed planetary transmission featuring a brake that transmitted the braking impulse down the drive-shaft, through the differential, to that rear wheel which had the least traction. The most important thing to understand about driving Model T is that it was designed to have the same braking capability as the Titanic. It will take time and patience to learn to drive a Model T. In fact, it's best to have someone teach you.

People think of the Model T as being tough to the point of being indestructible. That's a myth. In some ways, it is far more delicate than any modern car—yet many thousand examples of this century-old design are on the road today. The car's obstinate longevity is mostly due to its having been produced in ridiculously large numbers, its go-kart simplicity and a super-availability of parts (not to mention the best technical advice forum on the internet). Aside from powerplant overhauls, you can pretty much do all of your own maintenance. The car always needs tinkering and a little at a time, you'll learn what you need to know about twirling screwdrivers and bending cotterpins.

Here are some questions to consider while making a pre-purchase inspection:

What is the general condition of the car and is everything on it in working condition? A generally dirty car with dust on the seats hasn't been run in a while and that tells you something about recent maintenance. That doesn't mean a car that looks good is good—because the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but if you're going to bet, that's the way to go.

Has the car suffered any damage or been in a serious accident? A century-old car is going to be carrying some baggage, so it's not reasonable to expect a vestal virgin, but as a first-time buyer, you definitely want to avoid a car that has structural issues like a bent frame.

Is the front end nice and tight? It's easy enough to rough-test for tightness in the front end by rocking the steering wheel back and forth and checking for excessive play. If you're mechanically inclined, taking the play out of a loose front end is fairly straightforward, but for a newbie, it's a headache you don't need, right off the bat.

Is there any rust on the car? Model T Fords are made of some seriously good quality materials, but corrosion on a car is never a good thing. Perforation rust on the body is more serious than fender rust because it may be indicating the presence of wood rot beneath. Most Model T's have wooden frames covered by sheet metal.

So, is there any wood-rot in the body? Fixing this problem can be expensive and difficult. Significant wood rot is a problem for an experienced restorer, not a first-time antique car hobbyist.

Is there a lot of Bondo in the body? This isn't critically important, but it can become a point when negotiating price.

In what condition is the paint job? Same as above.

In what condition is the upholstery? Ditto.

Is this car a Ford-factory-built original, or was it custom-built later on from parts?  This is a value-related question. An original is simply worth more.

Does the engine start well when hand-cranked?  Some of these cars have starters and that includes retro-fitment of some of the early brass cars that came out of the factory with no electrical system whatsoever. A starter is a wonderful thing to have because when you stall the car in heavy traffic, setting the brake and getting out front to begin a lengthy wrestling match with a stubborn engine while frustrated, angry drivers are trying to pass at close range, can be a humbling experience. At the very least, you want a non-self starting car to start easily when hand-cranked.

Does the engine run smoothly, have good power, etc.? A correctly running, stock Model T engine is a joy to drive. A properly set-up magneto is important because getting in there to adjust the thing is just not a practical option for someone new to the hobby. On the other hand, the four individual coils, which also benefit greatly from proper adjustment, are very accessible and if you don't have the expertise to adjust them yourself, it's a simple matter to ship them out to an expert like "The Coil Doctor," who will have them singing.

Does the engine have a high-compression head? A high compression head is the most effective piece of bolt-on performance equipment. Don't expect a significant increase in cruising speed, but acceleration and hill-climbing ability will be measurably improved. Other enhancements might include a later-model carburetor, like the NH, and/or a bigger intake manifold. These are all easy to get.

Does the car have a generator?  If not, then by what method is the battery charged and where is the battery mounted? None of the brass-radiator Fords were manufactured with any kind of electrical system. In fact, when electric headlights replaced acetylene headlamps in 1915, these were wired up to the engine's magneto. The headlights would be nice and bright at 30 mph, but dimmed down to almost nothing when the car slowed for turns. Legend has it that you could burn out the bulbs by exceeding 40 mph. Henry Ford seemed to pride himself on being the first to be last and he didn't begin installing electrical systems in his cars until 1919, when 6-volt batteries and generators became available for the first time (in enclosed Model T's only). The brass cars can be retro-fitted with electrical systems, but of course, that would be a significant departure from originality.

Is the radiator of the round-tube or flat-tube type? The original round-tube radiator won't cool as efficiently as the aftermarket, flat-tube radiators being manufactured today. The issue is originality vs. function.

Is the front wishbone attached to the top or to the bottom of the front axle? Originally, the front wishbone was attached to the top of the front axle. For reasons of safety related to loss of steering control, that geometry was changed in 1919 by instead attaching the wishbone to the bottom of the axle. Some of the earlier cars have been retrofitted.

Are the thrust washers in the differential made of babbitt or bronze? The original babbitt thrust washers in the differential have not aged well and so developed a tendency to fall apart. When that happens, the firm mesh of gears between the drive shaft and the differential can loosen to the point where the drive-train brake is rendered inoperative and the only remaining means of stopping the car would be the parking brake (unless you happen to have some kind of auxiliary brakes installed on the rear wheels).

Does the car have a Ruckstell rear end? This 2-speed, shiftable differential was one of the few aftermarket items of which Henry Ford approved and some of Ford's dealers offered this as an option. It's a nice thing to have if you live in a very hilly area or if you're going to be driving in parades. The most serious disadvantage of a Ruckstell is that it can get stuck in neutral between gears and that renders the drive-train brake completely ineffective.

Does the car have Rocky Mountain brakes? If you have a Ruckstell rear end, you need Rocky Mountain Brakes (or some other kind of auxiliary brakes). Rocky Mountain Brakes became available as an aftermarket item in 1917. They improve the Model T Ford's braking ability considerably, from absolutely horrible to rather poor. Some folks have mounted disc brakes to the Model T and that modification is commercially available, but the car has awfully skinny wheels and when you're dealing with a tire footprint the same approximate size as that of a shot-glass, the best disc brakes in the world won't stop the car in any shorter distance than the Rocky Mountain type. On the other hand, Rocky Mountain brakes are of the "self-energizing" type, which means they don't stop very well when the car is rolling backwards. They're also reputed to work badly in wet conditions.

Does the car have de-mountable wheels? De-mountable rims became available in 1919 and they make for much simpler and quicker flat tire changes on the road, assuming you're carrying spare tires. They're not correct on earlier cars, but that hasn't stopped a lot of people from retrofitting brass cars that frequently go on tour.

Does the car have an electric brake tail light and directional signals? An enclosed car being driven in traffic really needs turn signals because your left arm won't be visible to someone on the right and slightly behind. At least one brake-light is also a must, for obvious reasons.

Does the car have safety glass? Think of the old type of glass windshield as a guillotine. Replacing such panes with safety glass is a must.

When was the last time the car was driven? How often is the car driven?  Has it participated in any tours? Active cars tend to be healthier cars. To take an inactive car out of mothballs invariably costs significant bucks.

Buy the best car you can afford. It's almost always cheaper to find and buy the one that's already restored and equipped as you like than it is to buy a basket case and restore it yourself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - 03:50 am:

Just to add to the upholstery as mentioned by Bob........if you're a fuss budget about interiors grab hold of your pants and check out what interior KITS cost. <eek>
Then there is the little detail about the cost of installation. <eek> again........it's a VERY labor intensive proposition.
Pointing out those things to a seller may not get you anywhere but it'll get YOU somewhere....... :-)


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