A V8 like this I mean....
This is not the forum for hot rods. Maybe try the HAMB forum. We like Model T's here.
This was a Gentry V8, made circa 1917...Heres some info posted on another site
"One of the more interesting tales of the Gentry Ford era was his development of an eight-cylinder engine for the Model T. Earl E. Buie wrote about it in his “They Tell Me” column in the September 5, 1960, issue of the San Bernardino Evening Telegram. Some of the particulars differ from later recounts of the same events, but since Buie’s story was written while Gentry was still alive and active, it is assumed to be more accurate.
Ford Motor Company brought out a V8 engine for their 1932 Model B, quite an improvement over the four-cylinder engines common at the time. This is considered Henry Ford’s last major innovation, and it put his company ahead of the competition for the next 20 years. However, according to Buie, Gentry had the company beat by 15 years, for it was in 1917 that he and Martin Lewis, who was active in the automobile industry in Los Angeles, joined to produce their own V8 engine. They modified the Model T four-cylinder engine using parts manufactured and assembled in San Bernardino. In other words, both Detroit and San Bernardino were manufacturing car engines during World War I. Judging from this description by Buie, the Gentry-Lewis engine was a great innovation:
The eight-cylinder block was fitted onto the Ford Model T engine crankcase, and used the same crankshaft, camshaft and carburetor. It could be installed in a matter of hours and converted the comparatively rough running four-cylinder motor into a powerful motor of smooth performance and high efficiency. And the cost? A mere $175.
Hanford Foundry cast the block, head and manifold, and Charles Linderoth’s Machine Works at Rialto and I Streets bored the cylinders. (The foundry is now gone. However, the machine shop building still exists, but most of its tools and other equipment have been removed and it is no longer an active business. Most recently it has been known as Toman’s Machine Works.) The engines were assembled by Gentry’s expert mechanics, four of whom Buie identified by name: W. E. (Slim) Vardy, John Wallace, Johnny Kennedy, and Walter Mapstead.
Twenty or 30 engines were built over a period of about one year. When Ford representatives heard about the Gentry-Lewis engine, they came to inspect it, and were not pleased. They told Gentry that their dealers must limit activities to selling their Fords, and that he must desist from further sales of his engine, which he did. Gentry kept his first engine in storage for about 40 years before loaning it to a Gentry Ford successor, Garner-Muth Ford. Garner put it on display for a while, but it eventually was sent to the Ford Museum in Michigan."
Fascinating!
When I read the topic, I was hoping that was the picture I would see! I didn't know if I wanted to look or not.
I have never heard of one of those engines in a car being driven during my lifetime (yet?). I did hear of one of the custom made sixes being driven a few years ago.
Thanks, nice to keep the information cycling for new-comers.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
same crankshaft ???..two rods in each of those small journals ...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !!
David.
Wow, that's pretty cool.
Ed, do you know if any of these have survived outside a museum?
That is pretty neat. I had never heard of a V8 for Fords back then. Chev dabbled with them around then I believe. Thanks for sharing.
I just know I am going to regret asking this question but...........does it have a water pump?
Awesome. Did it have a starter? Looks like an aluminum hogshead
Years ago there was a story about this engine in one of the Club Magazines. Does anyone have an index handy to say which issue?
Thanks
Herb
John R.
I was wondering the same thing. Looks like no water pump unless something was added on the hose between the engine and radiator.
Jim
I'm sure there is one still sitting in a barn or garage someplace, probably overlooked because of how rare and confusing it is...Im still looking....
That engine is cool! I bet the guys at HAMB would get a kick out of seeing it.
MarkG not part of the "WE"
Here is some additional info about the engine. The link is translated for those of us that do not speak the Dutch language.
http://tinyurl.com/6vblrhj
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6vblrhj
Those fortunate to speak or read Dutch can use this link.
http://www.a-ford.nl/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129&Itemid =40
Regards
Art
Ps. If you don't think "tinyurl" saves space, just click on the preview version.
Fascinating! I wonder how it sounded. Modern flat-crank V8s have a pretty distinctive sound due to the even spacing of the exhaust pulses compared to a 90deg crankshaft.
I think Snyders in Ohio has a V8 T engine in there show room.
Somewhere in the last month or so I was able to read 'something' on the full story of the T V 8...danged age, sure can't remember when or where...but ask me the length of a cotter I used in '72, thats another story!
Anyway, Anyhow...what I do remember is that the story said that somewhere between 20 and maybe 30 were built before Detroit said 'not in our cars if you want your franchise!"
I remember seeing one in a car. The deep grove in the left head was for the steering shaft. Maybe Popular Mechanics or Popular Science of the 60's? Darn CRS problem!
Sorry, meant to say Groove.
I knew a gentleman here in the Seattle area that purchased many of Fords Exp. engines years ago when they cleared out a lot of things in a stored area.I knew that he has the Edsel Ford mini T that Henry had made for him. I'll try and call him and see if he has one. I know that there is one strange V-8 that has the starter in the center(rear) over the trans.
Bob
One of the more interesting tales of the Gentry Ford era was his development of an eight-cylinder engine for the Model T. Earl E. Buie wrote about it in his “They Tell Me” column in the September 5, 1960, issue of the San Bernardino Evening Telegram. Some of the particulars differ from later recounts of the same events, but since Buie’s story was written while Gentry was still alive and active, it is assumed to be more accurate.
Ford Motor Company brought out a V8 engine for their 1932 Model B, quite an improvement over the four-cylinder engines common at the time. This is considered Henry Ford’s last major innovation, and it put his company ahead of the competition for the next 20 years. However, according to Buie, Gentry had the company beat by 15 years, for it was in 1917 that he and Martin Lewis, who was active in the automobile industry in Los Angeles, joined to produce their own V8 engine. They modified the Model T four-cylinder engine using parts manufactured and assembled in San Bernardino. In other words, both Detroit and San Bernardino were manufacturing car engines during World War I. Judging from this description by Buie, the Gentry-Lewis engine was a great innovation:
The eight-cylinder block was fitted onto the Ford Model T engine crankcase, and used the same crankshaft, camshaft and carburetor. It could be installed in a matter of hours and converted the comparatively rough running four-cylinder motor into a powerful motor of smooth performance and high efficiency. And the cost? A mere $175.
Hanford Foundry cast the block, head and manifold, and Charles Linderoth’s Machine Works at Rialto and I Streets bored the cylinders. (The foundry is now gone. However, the machine shop building still exists, but most of its tools and other equipment have been removed and it is no longer an active business. Most recently it has been known as Toman’s Machine Works.) The engines were assembled by Gentry’s expert mechanics, four of whom Buie identified by name: W. E. (Slim) Vardy, John Wallace, Johnny Kennedy, and Walter Mapstead.
Twenty or 30 engines were built over a period of about one year. When Ford representatives heard about the Gentry-Lewis engine, they came to inspect it, and were not pleased. They told Gentry that their dealers must limit activities to selling their Fords, and that he must desist from further sales of his engine, which he did. Gentry kept his first engine in storage for about 40 years before loaning it to a Gentry Ford successor, Garner-Muth Ford. Garner put it on display for a while, but it eventually was sent to the Ford Museum in Michigan.
This is the Toman's mentioned in the article above:
And the guys on the HAMB already know about this engine. That's where I got the information from.
Pretty amazing.
Also hate to mention but it has a distributor.
I wonder how the crank would hold up?
AS mentioned by Ross Harris Snyders has one in their showroom. There was one that was sold at a Henry Ford Museum auction in the 1970's which went to California from memory it went for $750.
An article on the engine is in the Vintage Ford
Vol 2 Number 6 written by Kennith Schwartz. from the Transport Dept Henry Ford Museum. This probably the one sold by them The 2 pictures above are from that article here are the rest of them.
Look, a downdraft carburetor, just for Frank.
Ralph,
Looks like a twin throat updraught Zenith to me
Good grief Royce, it IS a Model T engine. You need to look at these posts a bit more carefully before you jump in. You are two for two on being wrong now. Dave
I drive by Tomans Mach. Everyday on my way to work...I remember the V8 Vintage Ford story ...The Co. I work for used Tomans ...What a magical place it was...Line shafts and leather belts going to all the different machines...One of my good friends ,Jim Stocker, had the details told to him by Mr. Gentry himself.......I'll show him this post and see if he has anything to add........I too wonder what that thing sounded like running......Thanks Ed for starting this post.........Carl
Carl, give my regards to Jim Stocker, and ask him about the Greatrace. He ran a well modified T for a few years in the 1990s, until they changed some rules.
I met Jim just once, at a Greatracers party at the Curry's in about 1999.
rdr
Very interesting. Of course I'm 'T Traitor' Hot Rodders. I'll bet those would have come in handy in a T truck. Naturally, I have questions about the crankshaft load and the overheating problems endemic with all the Flathead V8's
I thought it was a V860 at first. I agree it is very cool. I would not object to having one in my garage!
This is as close as our T will ever be to having a V-8 in it. :-)
And that looks like an unleaded V8 to boot, Jay!
Hey Jay, if you end up with Jackie Chan bouncing around in your garage let us know.
I still think that would be a slick engine in MY Model T.
SALT..........We don't need no stinking SALT. :-)
"Dat's good morning, veggie stywe..."
Jay, When I first looked at this post that V8 juice is what I thought I'd find. I've been educated, I didn't know that V8T engine existed. I wonder if it would even fit under the hood?
How would you like to hand crank that one.
Actually Scott When I tell people she's got a V8 in her they don't believe me.............Until I lift the hood!!
I "Love It" Jay.......I wonder where you could find a "vintage " V8 can???? this is one of the best accessories you've come-up with yet....This whole group puts a smile on my face everyday...Between all the photos,accessories,and know-how what more could ya' ask for ??? 40 degrees out but I'm going for a ride in the "T" today..."Film @ Eleven "..CARL
I'm not sure how much more juice that number 1 spark plug wire is going to take.
Rich
It may be older than I thought.....
V8 juice wasn't introduced till 1933. I suppose they were still drinking in line 4 juice back in the 20's.
Didn't Harley market some V-Twin juice at one time?
(Well if they didn't, they should have, dang-it.)
My apologies to Ed for the thread drift but as Flip Wilson would say "The Devil made me do it."
John, You crack me up!
Actually it was: could'a had an OHV 4.
In the flathead four days it was called Inline 6
I checked at the local market today, it's now called Quad Cam V8.
This is the Ron Patterson version. (grin)
I think I like Ron's version better... just can't imagine how the coil box would look! I guess that's why Atwater Kent is still around and Ford coils aren't.
John,
Here is the only know picture of the V8 coil box.
The only known surviving coil box was borrowed by NASA in the 1960s. As the story goes, it was used on Apollo 13s command module oxygen tanks. (not sure what for) I imagine it did a bang up job.
How about this one in yr T?
Who made that block? Look how much more water jacket it has.
Someplace there are pictures of the flathead six that Hall-Scott made for the model T.
We have two Model T's with V8 engines in them in the Long Beach Model T Club. Both cars have V8 60's in them. I have posted the two pictures below.
The red Roadster was just built by 92 year old Phil Reed and the 1925 Coupe is currently owned by Duane Studer and has been around for about 50 years.
Looks like newer Ford axles under the black coupe. How much T is left in Phil Reeds roadster?
Really beautiful roadster Frank!
Our local club has a member with a 60 V/8. With the hood closed, you can't tell it from a stock Model T.
I had one of those 60 V8's once, I was going to drop it into my Model A but I sold it with the "A". Now I'm thinking that wasn't such a good idea, I suppose with a wee bit of modifying you could make the Model T trans work with it.
Actually, quite a bit of modification Martin.
I originally bought my 27 Tudor with the intentions of putting a Flathead V8 in it. It only made sense that if I was going to up the engine out put that much, the only way to go would have been with the 3 speed trans and 40 Ford 'juice brakes'.
But my car was just so complete and original (right down to the key for the door lock), I just didn't have the heart to cut it up. That's how I ended up a 'Model T guy' and I'm glad I did.
Eric, the expression on the faces of those people in the ad are extremely disturbing! Just a question though: It's been stated that it has an original type crankshaft. Is that even possible and what would the life expectancy of it be?
CharlieB
I doubt it was any bigger than a stock T engine in displacement and as such the stock T crank would survive OK. It is probably about the same bore as a V8-60.
I have a 1916 Briscoe V8 engine. It has fork and blade style con rods and this would have worked very well on that T V8, although they didn't use that design
Derek
It would sound quite like any other V8 as it will still fire every 90 degrees of rotation
V8-60
I need to do some measurements to see how well it would fit to the T transmission. I have one of the "tin sided" blocks sitting there.
Les, it's true that it would fire every 90 degrees, but a flat-crank V8 has a distinctive sound because each exhaust pulse is on the opposite bank as the one before it. As a result, the sound is smoother and higher-pitched than a typical V8 with a 90deg crankshaft. The typical rumble of a V8 is the result of some exhaust pulses being stronger than others where the multiple pulses go into the same manifold 90deg apart from each other instead of evenly at 180deg.
On a flathead Ford V8, the firing order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2
The left bank fires 1&5 90deg apart, then 270deg later, fires 3&7 90deg apart.
The right bank fires 4,8&6 90deg apart and 2 all by itself.
A flat-crank V8 is one of the smoothest sounding engines you'll ever hear.
I bought this car to research hot rods of the 1940s and early 1950s (Twelve-year-old Model T nut nephew in the driver's seat). This one has a 59Y block typically found in military and industrial applications.
When I got the car it didn't like doing more than 50 mph -- now theoretically it'll do 130 (but you won't see me drive it that fast).
- 25 T roadster body
- 27 TT framerails
- A rear crossmember
- F1 trans mount
- custom spread
- 34 truck grille, narrowed and chopped
- Jag XK120 radiator
- 35 wirewheels up front with 34 caps
- other brand truck wheels in back with 36 Caddy caps
- 39 Ford toploader 3-speed
- 47 front and rear with 3.25:1 ratio
- early Ross steering gear
- Sprint car pittman
- 20s speedboat steering wheel
- 40s Ford stock shocks
- 40s Ford hydraulic brakes
- school bus seat
- 27 Do-Ray tailight
- aftermarket Ford truck headlights(?)
- Steward gauges
Unless, I missed it on the previous posts, they had one of these V8's on display, at the Henry Ford Museum.
A friend of mine, has a Ford 60 in one of his stock, oyher than the drive train, Model T.
Wow!!! Was that an experimental V-8 made by Ford or by an enterprising inventor? I know Edsel Ford was experimenting on ways to make the Model T more marketable. Could he have had a hand in this? I wonder if the old man saw it and what he thought about it. It was obviously never incorporated into the Model T production, but I see no reason why it would not have worked, unless the power provided by the 8 cylinders was too much for the planetary transmission the thermo siphon cooling system and brake system. How would that V-8 have been made? Was it made from a modified block or was a new, complete block sand cast from scratch? Very cool! Jim Patrick
Still throwing up from yesterdays election results, but life goes on. I recall a similar V-8 thread from some time back, and trying to remember what was said, I can't find my pictures now, but will keep looking. In the 90's, I came upon a Museum of sorts north of Sacramento, seems like it was a truck Museum, but had lots and lots of stuff. On display in a back room was one of these V-8 attached to a T transmission and pan. We did a lot of talking and measuring, I am sure in my own mind that it was as close to a 60 HP as it could get and not be one, but maybe not. I know I talked to the owner of this place for a long time, and almost had him talked into selling it to me, but I finally gave up, a long way from home and etc., still wish I had done it. The local T Guru and I looked and looked and thought and thought about a conversion for my car, but decided that if one was going to do this, just make a complete swap, clutch, transmission and all, but it never happened, we couldn't find a suitable 60 and etc. for the swap.
One of our deceased club members had a V8 60HP in his 26 Roadster. It also had Model A axles front and rear and standard shift transmission. It is still in his family. There is another similar car in the Houston, TX area.
I appears that the valve covers extend beyond the transmission motor mount ears, which is a good indication that the V-8 was wider than the side frame rails. With this in mind, would the V-8 Model T engine pictured have fit in the engine compartment, while allowing the hood to be closed like on a stock 4 cylinder engine or would the firewall, hood, hood shelves and radiator have needed to be widened to accommodate the extra width of the engine? Jim Patrick
Jim, the third post on this thread gives the history of this engine. Dave
That's where the idea for the engine mounted coil box came from, 4 coils on the dash and 4 more coils in the engine coil box.
Decades ago, when the South Central Swap Meet was still held at the Pate Museum of Transportation in Cresson, TX., south of Ft. Worth, there was a 26-27 T coupe there one year that had a 60 horse V8 in it. As I remember, the engine was stock, as was the rest of the car. Even though a restorer, I thought it was pretty neat. I would have loved to have gone for a ride in it.
Apparently the V8-60 swap into a Model T was something that lots of folks did over the years. A deceased Model T guy here in NW AR built one back in the 70's. He had several nicely restored T's, but like many of us, he wanted something more. I think that idea appeals to many of us, wanting more power in a T which will keep up with modern traffic, without going overboard. With 3 times the power as a stock engine, there's no need to go to extremes and make it unreliable.
I believe Don Lang has a V8 Model T engine out of (Or still has the hole TT truck it was in)...Its been pictured in some books. It had a coil box and and cross over manifolds.
I ;v e seen Model A engines couple to a T tranny!
Anyone could jam anything in to a 'T" .....using the tranny is is pretty neat!
There's one here in the Tacoma Area,and it came from back east. It was featured on the cover of Hot Rod Mag.,I believe in the 50's. Not many here
may know of it.
Bob
grady, im still pukin myself
Very cool,thanks for posting.
Hey Mike. You got rid of that pesky distributor in yer picture ... how about adding a couple of timers now! Imagine the headaches if that was how it was really timed !!
Garnet
Blaspheme. My eyes are burning for the sacrificed stock Model T's. Repent before it is too late... Oh look a kitty....
Ha Ha
Awesome cars all the way around ...