Non demountable wheel sizes????

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Non demountable wheel sizes????
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Saturday, January 28, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

I have 2 non demountable wheels I would like to get 30" x 3" tires for. These are different from others I have,and I could sure use some help!!! These wheels measure 24 1/4" tall, both of them, one 2 7/8" wide square wood felloe, and one 24 1/4" tall, 2 15/16" wide steel felloe. I have read that size is approximate, but 1/4" larger than all the others that are 24" tall almost exactly has me wondering, it seems like a lot.... I bought these with no hubs, but sure thinking they are Model T ? Maybe someone else has run into this or maybe it is normal? Thanks for any help... Jim Derocher AuGres, Michigan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Calimer on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 06:48 pm:

The rims you have sound like they are for 30 x 3 1/2" tires rather than 30 x 3". The 30 x 3 clincher measures about 2 1/2" wide. The inside diameter of the front wheel clincher is just about 23.75" with the outside diameter close to 25" and the rear clincher is about 22.75" on the I.D. and about 24" O.D.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Ronning on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 09:25 pm:

I have not measured my wheels but I have 30x3 1/2 tires on the front of my 14 T, could someone have put the wrong tires on this car years ago? Well 30x31/2 tires fit on a 30x3 wheel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 10:26 pm:

My 14 also has 30x31/2 on the front. The wheels are 30 x 31/2 wheels. I was told that for a tine during the 50's 30x3 tires were not available and this was a common change. My car was restored in the mid-50's.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Ronning on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 10:36 pm:

The inside diameter of my front wheel clincher is 23.75" so my wheel must be for 30x3. would it be better to put 30x3 on these wheels or replace with 30x3 1/2?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 04:04 am:

30X3.5 tires can be put on 30X3 rims, but it is really tough and a real fight. It is not recommended except in cases of a blow-out and no correct spare. The reverse is also true. A 30X3 tire can be made to work on a 30X3.5 rim, but it is very difficult to get the bead to seat in the clincher. I have never done either, and hope I don't have to. But I have seen it once.
Many early Ts did have the front wheels changed to simplify tires back in the '50s, for that matter, sometimes in the teens. Also, I have been told, Canadian Ts used 30X3.5 all the way around.
Use the right size tires.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 06:15 am:

Here's a picture of Coker Excelsior 30 X 3 1/2 tires mounted on 30 X 3 front rims. The tires cracked all over the place and were ruined.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Ronning on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 07:40 am:

Thank you for the info. I will use 30x3. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Derocher on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 08:55 am:

Thanks Bill for the info, just a few more questions. I measured the inside rim diameter, and they seem to be right at 22.75", the overall height is 24.25", concrete floor to top height with level across. They measure 2.50 inside the rim.[ my wide measurements were total width] I am thinking these are for 30 x 3 tires, or am I still mixed up? On your numbers you listed front wheel clincher is 23.75 I.D., and rear wheel clincher at 22.75 I.D.and I believe you are talking about 30 x 3 on the front and 30 x 3.5 on the back. I am confusing myself, last question - O.D height 24.25", I.D height 22.75, I.D width 2.5", O.D width 2.75....Which tires would you buy? Thank You Bill, and anyone else that can help here. I have been trying to get things rolling out of the garage by spring and have been stuck on rim searching and assembling for way to long! Jim Derocher, AuGres, Michigan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 10:12 am:

When sizing tires to rims you take the size of the tire, let's say 30 X 3 1/2. Double the second number and subtract it for the first.



IE. 30 x 3 1/2 would be:
3 1/2 x 2 = 7. So 30 - 7 = 23. The rim diameter should be 23


30 x 3:
3 x 2 = 6. So 30 - 6 = 24


And so on....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 11:41 am:

OK, since I am still confused, I’ll try again….

In a prior post, Bill said:
“By Bill Calimer on Monday, January 30, 2012 - 06:48 pm:The rims you have sound like they are for 30 x 3 1/2" tires rather than 30 x 3". The 30 x 3 clincher measures about 2 1/2" wide. The inside diameter of the front wheel clincher is just about 23.75" with the outside diameter close to 25" and the rear clincher is about 22.75" on the I.D. and about 24" O.D.”

Later, Wayne said:
“ By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, January 31, 2012 - 04:04 am:30X3.5 tires can be put on 30X3 rims, but it is really tough and a real fight. It is not recommended except in cases of a blow-out and no correct spare. The reverse is also true. A 30X3 tire can be made to work on a 30X3.5 rim, but it is very difficult to get the bead to seat in the clincher. I have never done either, and hope I don't have to. But I have seen it once.”

This raises some questions in my mind:
1) Are there different sized rims? A rim for a 30 X 3 ˝ tire, and a different rim for a 30 X 3?
2) If all rims are the same size, is there a greater possibility of the 30 X 3 (with the larger I.D.) coming off the rim with low air pressure than the 30 X 3 ˝ (with the smaller I.D.)?
3) If there are two different size rims, is it possible that Royce is able to “hand mount” the larger I.D. tires on a smaller rim?

Thanks to whoever can straighten out my thoughts on this.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 03:29 pm:

Jim and Dave,

For the early rims – they were not being produced by computer aided machines. In the Horseless Carriage Magazine many years back (ok only 50 or 60 years ago) it shared how you could take the 30 x 3 Model T clincher rim and make the harder to find 28 x 3 clincher rim. When it talked about how much metal to cut out of the rim it was right up front and said something along the lines of “XX inches but you do not have to be precise as the wheel is built to fit the rim." I don’t remember if it was a 1/2 inch of slop or more. But it was not considered a big issue as long as it was close. I think if you review the article below you will be able to determine what size wheels you have. Note – you gave several measurements – but you also need to say from what to what is being measured. Please take a moment to look at the illustration and photos at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109798.html There are two wheels side by side. One is 30 x 3 and the other 30 x 3 1/2 with a tape measure in the photo. There is also the illustration shown below that goes with the photos and is shown below because it is much easier to post the singe item than all the photos again. Illustration is not to scale.



I didn’t worry about that 1/16 or so thickness of the metal part of the rim. When you place a 30 x 3 1/2 without a tire on the rim next to a 30 x 3 the 30 x 3 is about 1 inch taller. I show the curved sides of the clincher as 1/2 inch. And because there is a 1/2 at the top and 1/2 at the bottom then the rim measured on the inside of the rim is 23 inches for a 30 x 3 1/2 or 24 inches if you include the 1/2 inch distance of the curved section and multiply that by 2 (i.e. two sides) you have 24 inches – again for the 30 x 3 1/2 clincher.

For Dave's questions:

Q: 1) Are there different sized rims? A rim for a 30 X 3 ˝ tire, and a different rim for a 30 X 3?
A: Yes. see also: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels the wheels and start with the 1909 section.

Q: If all rims are the same size, is there a greater possibility of the 30 X 3 (with the larger I.D.) coming off the rim with low air pressure than the 30 X 3 ˝ (with the smaller I.D.)?
A: The rims are NOT all the same size. It has been documented that if you put the 30 x 3 on a 30 x 3 1/2 rim and the pressure gets low enough -- the tire rolls off. [Which is why we should not just mount 30 x 3 tires on the front of our non-demountable USA produced Ts. --We need to make sure we have the correct wheels/rims on the front before we can mount what Henry sent out the factory door. And even then we need to remember that Ford used 30 x 3 1/2 non-demountables on the front for a short time during 1926 (see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels scroll down to 1926 and look at part number 2800A1 which is “Front 30x3-1/2 Non-demountable (1926).” As well as 30 x 3 1/2 on the WWI USA produced Ambulances. Ford of Canada for all Model T Production of cars used 30 x 3 1/2 on all four wheels or 21 inch on all for wheels and never used the 30 x 3 style non-demountables used in the USA with the possible exception of the 30 x 3 used on the Model R Runabout and Model S Roadsters --- and in that case I am not sure exactly what tire size Canada used on them when. In the USA both of those cars had 30 x 3 non-demountables on all four wheels.
Q: If there are two different size rims, is it possible that Royce is able to “hand mount” the larger I.D. tires on a smaller rim?
A: In theory any of us could easily mount the 30 x 3 tire on the 30 x 3 1/2 rim (assuming the tire is flexible). In reality because Royce is very knowledgeable about the differences between the 30 x 3 and the 30 x 3 1/2 rims, even if someone had swapped out the original 30 x 3 front wheels/rims on a T – Royce has seen enough of them not to be fooled by them. He would mount the correct tire on the type of rim that was there [and probably change the rim and wheel to the correct one for the year]. Once you put the two of them next to each other – it is very easy to tell them apart. Again – please see the photos showing both at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/109798.html

Great discussion.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 04:16 pm:

Hap,
Once again it is shown that you are a wealth of knowledge.
Thank you for that explanation.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 08:34 pm:

Thanks Dave. Actually I'm just very slowly building on the knowledge a lot of other folks have collected in the past and continue to provide on the forum, in e-mails, and from visits to the Benson Ford Archives and other locations. A lot of the information has been compiled thanks to Bruce (RIP) and those that helped him. I'm thankful that we are not starting from square one, but with a lot of the outline and details already filled in for us.

To all of you who are helping to collect and categorize information thank you. And to those that are restoring your Ts - thank you -- that is one of the main reasons we are trying to document the information. And to those that are driving the Ts -- thank you -- it is a great recruiting tool for our club and hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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