E Timers What's Your Feedback??

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: E Timers What's Your Feedback??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, February 03, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

I want to start a new thread to discuss any issues about the E Timer without Hijacking somebody else's thread.

I recently installed one and still on a honeymoon with the thing! Sort of like I can't believe she married me... Hee hee

I could tell from the seat that the car accelerated a lot quicker when I shifted to Ford High.

It doesn't cough or won't kill taking off from a stop or driving at slow idle. This wasn't the first thing I noticed but when another user told me about that I said "wow, he's right"

I keep thinking there's got to be something to give up. The thing I haven't yet adjusted is the sound of the coils. I did try another set of coils adjusted for sound that were very good.

I wished that it improved my top end but I can't say that.

Please post any comments good and bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard from San Buenaventura, Calif on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 01:31 am:

I would not install one in any of my T's if they were free. Improvements need to be period correct. If I want comfort, I take the Mercedes. If I want speed, I take the Porsche. When I take a T, I want to feel what it was like to drive one 100 years ago. What makes the T so special is what it can do without, a car from the blacksmith age. Its unique features are the planetary transmission and the magneto ignition with the wooden coils. Add an electronic timing device and you may as well move on to fuel injection or disc brakes, hidden under a cover that looks like a brake drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 02:13 am:

Bernard, Actually sounds like you and I have a lot in common and probably share most of the same opinions about our T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 03:33 am:

Good idea Gene........for some time I've been thinking to myself that if I wanted to make my T's into something else I maybe should have bought something else.
I bought them because they are T's through and through and they are going to stay that way as long as I own them. I don't need or want something advancing the timing for me......I can hear and feel what's necessary and it's just part of handling a T.
I LOVE having the cast iron pistons in da Coop as it's the sweetest idling engine ever. People make comments about that when I have it out. I'm not out to win the Indy 500 so I'll be fine. I don't want to do anything that makes my T's less than T's.......though that would be pretty difficult....... LOL
I'm not going to rag on someone at every opportunity that this or that isn't necessary.
Anyone can do what they want on their cars and I'll do what I want on mine.
Fair enough? ....... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 06:10 am:

My E-Timer patiently sits on the desk beside me, and it's nicely autographed by Mike too! I'm awaiting warmer temperatures before installing it, and then I will do some timed runs beforehand and compare numbers after the E-Timer has been installed. My racer will run at 60 mph. I don't expect any higher speeds, but I do expect to get up to speed faster.

We had a lot of windy days last summer and it was hard for the car, even with its small profile, to get over 40 mph running head-on into it. THAT is where I want to see a difference!

I would like to see a buyers-list of locations where the E-Timers have gone out to - not necessarily names, but just where else in the world they have gone to. Mine is in Southern Saskatchewan.

Regards all,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 08:33 am:

Gene:

As you saw from previous posts,the detractors are not really informed & have their own opinions, which is their option, but based on false or mis-information.

Those of us who run the E-Timer have the " Seat of the Pants " experience with a better running engine with the benefit of automatic timing control & less driver " fatigue " as I call it.

As I drove in to work this morning, I was wondering just how many True-Fire units have been sold.... better yet, how many were/are actually produced.... at a comparable price to the E-Timer ????
We already are aware of the problems associated with the True-Fire units..... not to hijack the thread or to stir up anyone who is pleased/displeased with True-Fire.

Garnet, I know of at least 10 E-Timer purchasers in New Jersey, I'm sure more around the country will post of their experiences.

Thanks Gene for starting this thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 08:34 am:

The E-Timer website is : www.modeltetimer.com


For full accurate information, no bull.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 08:51 am:

Looking at the website .... the "repro-bodied" Model T's at the old Greenfield Village are running daily with the E-Timer ignition !\

Guess it helps with docents without T driver experience..... and improves the car's running reliability .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 10:13 am:

I don't like the idea of electronics and also don't like the fact that the magneto doesent work any more with the E Timer. The soul of every Model T is the magneto. Eliminate that and you have lost me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 10:34 am:

Wrong again, Royce: a rectifier is used on the magneto output by some to charge a small battery for the ignition.

The Ford low tension magneto was just one more way for Henry to avoid paying royalties on a high tension magneto like was on the Model K. The Ford magneto and buzz coils had their virtues, but efficient engine ignition wasn't one of them. Ford, "Steady by Jerks" ignition, it was said in the day.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 11:04 am:

I can't knock it for 2 reasons. First, I don't own one so I have no personal reference to go on. Second, everybody that has one loves it. Has any one noticed that not one single E-Timer owner has knocked it? While I consider myself kind of a purist it only goes as far as "improvements" that don't show. Modern seals, True fire ignition (if you're into that), modern valves & seats, aluminum pistons and the E-Timer all fit into this category. The thing is a known performance booster and is maintenance free so if you can live with a few minor mods that nobody will ever see I can't say I'm against it. We're all entitled to our opinions but non-owner knockers are spinning their wheels in my book


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 11:05 am:

Obviously that rectifier doesn't come with an E Timer or vice versa Ralph. It means you have to buy yet another electronic gizmo that you don't need.

Honestly, the stock Ford ignition system is more sophisticated than many can understand, and utterly reliable. Some day you should try one Ralph, I know that your Model T has always had a distributor from the day you bought it.

I am no fan of distributors on a Model T either but if installed properly and maintained properly they are indeed very reliable. They just detract from the idea of having a Model T. And they eliminate the ability to operate the car without any battery or charging system, the soul of the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 11:39 am:

I'm not going to maintain a car to original with defects built in by one man's stubborn refusal to pay patent royalties:

Obsolete buzz coils

Heavy, inefficient, unreliable, dangerous, expensive to maintain low tension magneto

The high tension magneto, as on the Model K, supplies its own power for the spark. . A set of ordinary dry cells would last up to 2,000 miles with the Atwater-Kent disturbutor that was available back then. Both required paying royalties.

The high tension magneto was the ultimate in reliability and maintainability in the T era. That's what the racers used.

After losing the lawsuit, Henry agreed to pay royalties on the planetary transmission, but shirked that. The plaintiff's unhappy heirs have been on this Forum.

If there were a 3-speed planetary available, I would use that. Instead I use the original planetary with a planetary overdrive behind it.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 12:02 pm:

I tried the original style coils and timers for 3 yrs. and got tired of fighting the associated problems. Have been running a distributor with Pertronix for 8 yrs......no problems. Even the original switch caused missing.
Those that are hung up on true originality should go back to babbit thrust washers, get rid of those dippers, no alum. or bronze timing gears and I could go on. The bottom line....we have alot in common with our model T's.....lets not spoil things by tearing each other up over our individual likes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By CharlieB Toms River N.J. on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

Didn't include distributors in my post because, frankly, they show. However they are so common I think their "acceptable".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

I believe the point of the thread was aimed at those who have used the e-timer and to weigh the pros and cons of it; not personal opinions on whether or not we'd use one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

I believe the original point was wanting feedback on the use of the E-timer. If you haven't used one, you have no feedback. The rest is your opinion without observation.

It doesn't matter one whit to me whether you use one or not. I've driven cars that had them, and seen those same cars run without them. The E-timer did exactly what it was made to do: automatic spark advance, taking all the guess-work out of the equation from the driver. AND provided for a smoother operating powerplant at all speeds.

Dean Yoder has one, has driven a T with it probably more than anybody on this forum. What's his feedback??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 01:44 pm:

If we were to remove opinions from the forum, it would be too concise to be entertaining.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 02:11 pm:

Thanks for All the posts guys.

A perfectly maintained and functioning Model T will perform similar to an E-Timer without surging, bucking, lurching, coughing, or miss upon acceleration and operation.

The only difference is that getting the car to perform that way with the original ignition system is somewhat akin to balancing a cone on its point; you can do it but it will not take much to deviate from the desired performance pretty quickly.

The benefit of the E-Timer is that it mimics the performance of a properly adjusted and well maintained original ignition system without all the special knowledge, skills or tools necessary to get the original ignition system operating and keep it operating correctly. And if you do not want the benefits of Automatic Timing Advance as some have stated; it is very simple to program the E-Timer to operate in Manual Timing mode which operates precisely as the original ignition system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

I should have mentioned in my above post that my racer is currently (pun intended) running a TrueFire ignition system and it hasn't given me a single second of trouble.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:02 pm:

Henry bought the Ford Magneto patent from Ed "Spider" Huff after agreeing to pay him $1 for every Model T made with that low power magneto, which was really an alternator and misnamed.

The story is much longer and went all the way to the U. S. Supreme Court.

I have more details, but they are too many to add here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

I was wrong again!

Here is the end of the story.

Inventor Waits Too Long In Lawsuit Against Ford

By Associated Press

Washington, October 13. Ė The Supreme Court today refused to consider whether Henry Ford owes Edward S. Huff $11,000,000 as royalty upon magnetos used upon 4,500,000 automobiles.

Huff claimed he was paid $10,000 by Ford for the invention, but that he was also to receive $2.50 for each magneto used. The lower federal courts held that Huff had neglected to press his claim within the time allowed by law.

From the Galveston Daily News (Galveston, Texas), October 14, 1924


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

Thanks for the info, J1m. Wasn't Huff a Ford employee at the time?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Manuel Voyages on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:21 pm:

I think I have read where Spider was one of the originals that was with Henry at the start.
Was he the one that sat next to Henry when he raced 666 [or was it 999?]?
I have read where Henry still needed/used the services of Spider even after he initiated the law suit.
What other info do u have on this interesting character James?

Manuel in Oz


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 07:46 pm:

I guess Spider Huff learned the same lesson as Ernest Kanzler, William Knudsen and a bunch of other guys close to the boss: After shaking hands with Henry Ford, you'd better count your fingers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, February 04, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

I'd sure like to hear something from Dean Yoder here about his experiences with the Timer.

Stew Harvey told me that after he installed the E Timer on his T he can now make it up the steep hill to his house without shifting down from Hi to Low pedal. I haven't driven mine up any hills to experience that before and after.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 12:36 am:

Gene, Dean has commented before on this topic. As I remember it was all positive. I'll repeat what I said on another thread.... "I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would get so upset about such a non intrusive modification. The next owner can change it back in a few minutes if they don't like it. It's not like you painted an early touring car pink with natural wood spokes".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 02:16 am:

John,

Now Now, You know the early original cars were not pink and spokes are supposed to be painted but I like the more natural color to show off that expensive hickory wood. The next owner can always change back to whatever color they want.

Royce,

If the E Timer would work hooked up directly to the Magneto, do you think a person with your values and ideals would be any more prone to accepting it. I didn't say to buy it, mind you.

Yes, it would still be electronics sort of like LED lights or electric turn signal stuff guys use. Let's not get into what I think of some of those aftermarket lights guys put on their cars, Please

Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Pacoima, CA on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 02:48 am:

I myself have wondered about E timers as well, but then I also wonder about regular timers too. But then I drive it around and forget all about anything to do with coils and timers.

I feel that if your going to do that E-Timer, you might as well go full on distributor. Me, I went distributor, it runs smooth, always starts, never lacks for spark, and that little black box on the firewall...makes a great place to keep maps. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 08:45 am:

There are some people that if an improvement can be made, are just not accepting of the improvement. Those same individuals probably get mad because they cannot use "original" era air in their tires.

That's about how ridiculous the argument has become.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George - Cherry Hill New Jersey on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 09:17 am:

Will,

There is no arguement...just continual point/counterpoint banter...just some who are died in the wool converts to 'either' way.

You and I are 'privy' to knowing the original 'alpha' testers and the first bunch of 'beta' testers, of being lucky enough for those who tested to offer us the opportunity to 'have at it' with their cars and no matter what we did in our own 'driving personality' the car was always smarter than us, and we have also seen Mike test bench and what it shows which can not be disputed.

I've shared the story of the Hack which somehow got lost in all of this, yet the answer was (and I'm not complaining at all) by the time I was able to isolate a high speed miss and I pretty much think I know what I'm doing here more than an average Joe...I had more into it than an e-timer would have cost me and this same car ironically had spent the season before I bought it as an e-timer 'alpha' and you were there for most of its outtings, it ran like a tank, anytime, anywhere, any condition. The seller set it back to standard ignition with a new timer before I bought it and I know he knows what he is doing also. Sure for me it was one of those 'just one more part swap' troubleshooting things and I never pulled anything off once replaced and the high speed miss was still there until I finally found the culprit and it WAS the brand new roller timer! Perhaps an isolated and luck of the draw case...

All I can say owning several standard ignition cars with some flappers and some rollers and a dizzy ignition car is were/when I to be putting a new one together from scratch out of the parts stash, I'd personally have no hesitation going for an e-timer right out of the starting gate. Others might do it totally differently.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 09:25 am:

The E Timer replaces the least troublesome part of the system, the timer. The E Timer requires that all the other original Ford designed parts be present and operational, particularly if - as you claim - it is going to be powered by the magneto through some other electronic gizmo that has to be purchased seperately.

I guess it also is tribal knowledge or learned behaviour to be able to advance the spark lever when starting the car, and to retard it on hills. Your Prius probably does not have this problem, it is so much work and so hard to remember right? Why not eliminate the levers on the steering column entirely, and install an automatic transmission too? It would only cost a few thousand more bucks right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 09:39 am:

George:

The "Hack" story did not get lost. Happy to help, although the process of elimination suggestions did take time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 10:27 am:

What I don't understand is that Royce seems to insist on using a battery with his "wind-up" T. Any decently set up T magneto ignition has no need of a battery. They start no better and it is simply harder on the coils to run DC through a ignition system designed around AC. While Henry provided a ignition switch that would accept a battery, he made no other provisions for a battery on the non electric cars (no wire, no battery box). Adding a battery is simply a intrusive un-needed modification to the early T.
Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 10:44 am:

Les,

Indeed, Ford sent out a letter at one point advising dealers that installing a battery would void the warranty on the car! At least we can simply disagree with out having to attack one another's character.

My grandmother never had a battery for the 1915 touring they bought new and drove for much of the pre - WWII era. She would crank it herself on the coldest Minnesota winter mornings, on "MAG".

Needless to say you could not do this with an E timer. An E timer requires a battery be installed. If the battery is dead, the E timer won't work at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 10:49 am:

Interestingly enough, a solution to that is in the works for the E-timer. Hopefully it will be tested this year. I want to try one on my '13


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 11:07 am:

Gene
I purchased one of the first E-Timers.
A friend and I installed and tried it and provided our feedback to the designer. The recommendations related to low speed spark timing under under load and a significant safety consideration both of which were incorporated in the current product and installation instructions.
In my opinion any further comments about preferences/likes/dislikes are counterproductive for two reasons; if you disagree with some E-Timer acolytes they bludgeon you with rationale for their view and others refer to you as "stupid" for not agreeing with them.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 01:15 pm:

Guys, My take on them is if there's only 100 of them out there,they arn't worth arguing over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 02:50 pm:

Jack:

Sure, for now, the first 100 units...... with more in the future !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Harrison,Norco Ca on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

Even though I haven't installed it yet I am glad I bought one of the 100 available.It will be perfect for me as my mag is currently out of order.Still working on my aux brake install,I won't say what kind in order to avoid upsetting various members.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, February 05, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Hee hee George,

You being from a neighbor'g town in Califunny I bet I know what kind of brakes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 06:52 am:

Who was bludgeoned, & who is stupid, Ron ?????????


You wrote " In my opinion any further comments about preferences/likes/dislikes are counterproductive for two reasons; if you disagree with some E-Timer acolytes they bludgeon you with rationale for their view and others refer to you as "stupid" for not agreeing with them.
Ron the Coilman"


Not in the postings I read here.

Just stated facts & own experiences.



Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 12:41 pm:

Thanks guys for all the posts! I've wanted to write about the E Timer for some time but didn't want to hijack another thread.

Here's a couple of my final thoughts I'll share this morning that Royce and others I'm sure will understand:

I've wanted to install a water temp gauge in the outlet but there's just nowhere to hide the unsightly gauge on my 12 Torpedo's dash.

I've looked at those Magneto gauges and yup the same problem,

Darn, I'm sure glad that Timer didn't have the same taletell problems.

I do agree that GPS thing there is just unsightly and so out of place but you can't always be perfect.
Enjoy the cars while you can, soon you'll be gone and someone else will get to continue on.

Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 01:02 pm:

Bob,

I think Ron was speaking figuratively.

Ron,

I'm curious to know if you continue to use the E-Timer after beta testing. I'm not trying to set you up for any sort of argument so, if you don't want to reply here I understand.

My thoughts are that the E-Timer probably makes the T run like a swiss watch. I have heard of no objections to its use other than philosophical differences on what makes a model T, a model T.

If anyone cares, (and I could understand if you didn't), I find that my T's have done everything I've ever asked of them, thus far. Could they pull better on hills? Sure, but I've still been able to climb any hill I point the T at. Could they have better top speed? Yes, but then I would drive too fast. Smoother acceleration? Nothing else about a T is smooth so why go there. So, all that being said, I'm happy with my current performance. Would the E-Timer make it even better? Probably.

Another example is my '21 roadster. I have thought about putting a high compression head on it. But, considering it has delivered over 25,000 flawless miles and runs smooth as silk but, lacks a bit of power, I have opted to leave it alone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 02:17 pm:

I have not tried an E timer. I took off and gave away the distributor on one of my cars which was on it when I bought it. All 3 of my Model T's have coils and magneto. I find that when properly maintained, they run great just as Henry made them, and the ignition system is one of the features that make it a Model T. I would beg to differ with Ricks that the ignition system was obsolete when the first T was sold. Something that works well is never obsolete. There are just other ways to accomplish something. It's interesting, that although there were other ways of obtaining a spark, and some years Chevrolets outsold Fords, that of the other cars made during the Model T era are few still running today compared to the Model T's which are still being driven, and using the original ignition system.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Monday, February 06, 2012 - 03:10 pm:

Gene,

If you check out Mike Kossor's web page, you will see my 1911 and 1912 Tourings which were Beta testers for the E-Timer. My report should suffice your inquiry to learn more about their performance. The 1911 is located in CT and the 1912 in FL.

The MAG works "perfectly" as original in both cars. Should my 12 volt battery drop below 6 volts, rendering the E-Timer inoperable, (as it would a distributor or Tru-Fire system), in 5 minutes I can replace the E-Timer with any grounding contact timer and be on my way. My three other Ts use MAG and Coils and so I am fortunate to have the best of both worlds whenever I desire.

35 years ago when I stared playing around with Model-Ts, it was the TIMER and COILS which most often gave my touring friends the most trouble. I learned how to make them work optimally, but cannot match the precise spark control he E-Timer affords for full range performance.

Now when I want to go on a 500 mile tour, I want performance, reliability, and redundancy. I'm getting too old to spend time doing maintenance in sometimes torrid temperatures or drenching rain, not to mention my chronic aching back!

The E-Timer is NOT for everybody, but everybody who has one, is for IT!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard from San Buenaventura, Calif on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 02:33 am:

About 200 years from now, when fossil fuels have long been gone from this planet, archeologists will find a surviving Model T with an E-Timer and conclude that historians were wrong when they concluded that the event of electronics in automobiles was dated to about 1980, since apparently cars from the early 1900s already had them.

Little will they know that the reason that particular Model T was parked in a hidden structure was the malfunctioning electronic device that nobody could fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Kelsey on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 08:51 am:

Maybe I've missed something in reading the posts too quickly, but from what I've read, the mag is charging the battery while the e-timer is working? Say a guy has a Ford timer, when on mag, the power now has been transferred from the battery to the mag - it's the generator that charges the battery. The mag acts like a supercharger for the car. So, my questions are, "how does the mag function when using the e-timer" and "does one notice a power difference when switching over from battery to mag while using the e-timer?"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 09:59 am:

Jim, the way I read it is that when using the e-timer, the magneto has no purpose (other than, say, charging the battery). This would be especially useful for a car with no generator or a non-functioning generator. But you DO NOT use the magneto to drive the ignition in an e-timer car.

As you suspect, the magneto gives better performance than the battery in a "standard" ignition system - one with the old-fashioned timer and buzz coils. This has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere, with more learned reasonings than I could ever provide, but my own experience is that it truly makes a world of difference when you switch from battery to magneto. Supercharger is a good metaphor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 10:22 am:

The E-Timer works on battery/generator/alternator 6, 8, 10, or 12 volts DC.

Reference to magneto power was of a circuit to charge a battery where there was no generator or alternator, which could be adapted by the car owner.

The E-Timer uses very little amperage, a battery of selected voltage could last for a few months with average car trips.

Battery power is direct current, magneto current is alternating current,in comparison regardless of voltage output in application.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

Thanks Bob for a very good explaination. I may have confused some when I stated that I was running my mag to charge the battery while driving with the etimer.

With the etimer you have to get used to not switching from Bat to Mag after starting.

I do wonder how long one could run on a battery with no charging or what the power draw is with the etimer? I heard it is very little. Suppose it might be as much as 500 miles?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

Depends on the type of battery no?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 01:49 pm:

When installing an e-timer, do you disconnect the mag wire from the ignition switch/coil box? If not, what happens if you were to switch to mag? Would this damage the e-timer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Gene
I have it on good authority that the etimer will work successfully from a 9 volt transistor battery (wow I am really dating myself calling it that). I suspect you could easily add a zero to your estimate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

Yes Les, you have dated yourself. It should be referred to as a semi-conductor emf source.

Hola, Buen Dia

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 09:54 pm:

Gene:

I've disconnected the wire at the magneto post.


Hal:

We have a chapter member who is running on a total loss system ( no charging system ). He is using a golf cart battery, uses a charger maybe twice a touring season. Can't confirm since he is recovering from a medical procedure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, February 07, 2012 - 10:47 pm:

Hal :

I stand to be corrected. In a PM from chapter member : "Wayneís use of the E-Timer in his Torpedo; he actually uses a 6V toy car battery used to power Barbi/GI Joe Jeeps that kids ride. He told me that it was not new and had some time on it, not sure how old."
From casual conversation, Wayne indicated putting a charger on maybe twice a year.

Those golf cart batteries are larger physically compared to the small battery he actually uses.

My misunderstanding.

His Torpedo is on the E-Timer website.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, February 08, 2012 - 12:24 am:

Hal, I disconnected the wire from my mag post to the coil box and secured it near the mag post out of sight just so I wouldn't forget. Not sure what would happen but it does have a fuse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 08:44 am:

Gene & All:

I posted on " Intake Manifolds for 1913".

An original factory part numbered '13 intake manifold has been on our '26 Runabout for a few years.

Engine started & ran great with a Anderson Timer & Ford coils. Now, with the E-Timer, I find that the carb can be leaned out a bit more without stumbling at speed or burning valves.... using the same straight -thru NH .

Other non-visible improvements include a Stipe 280 cam, "Z" cylinder head, Ron Patterson manufactured starter, nylon advanced timing cam gear, ball bearing differential thrusts, synthetic differential oil, synthetic 10W40 motorcycle engine/trans oil, and the E-Timer.

Visible improvements are the Becker 6V alternator, original factory numbered aluminum intake, 1920 NH carb, and a 00 size ground cable from the starter mounting to the battery.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, February 09, 2012 - 08:49 am:

Reference to above post.


"I posted on " Intake Manifolds for 1913".

Stan:

Your comments on the larger intake manifold is noted. Would your thought include the Ford issued aluminum intake ??

I've been using one with a straight thru NH carb with the hot air tube, starts on second pull, engine starts quick on starter, idles without stumble, except on very cold mornings, and that smooths out within a minute. I'm at sea level + 25Ft. elevation in coastal New Jersey

I find the larger Ford issued intake will give the engine more power at speed, some estimate about 2 horsepower, I have no scientific proof of this, but have experienced a difference between the two manifolds on the same rolling hill trip with the same carb..... Here again, Seat of the Pants observation.

I have no experience with the re-pro aluminum intake. Not sure if it is the same dimensionally as the Ford '13 issue.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Graham on Friday, February 10, 2012 - 08:59 pm:

Gene

We just completed some dyno testing on six different kinds of ignition systems. The E-Timer was one of those tested. The data will be available very soon.

We tested the stock ignition system on mag.
Stock ignition system on 12 volt bat.
Stock ignition system on 6 volt bat.
Distributor ignition on 12 volts bat.
Stock ignition system with E-Timer on 12 volt bat
Stock ignition system with E-Timer on 6 volt bat

The E-Timer and the distributor out-performed all the others, with the E-Timer edging out the distributor for first place.


The other noticeable difference not evident from test data was the smoother running of the engine and decrease in vibration while on E-Timer. Engine torque measurements were more stable and easy to read.

I do not know Mike Kossor or have any connection to the E-Timer in any way. I contacted him to get a sample for testing to round out the ignition tests.

I will get the article finished and get it posted.

Regards
Tom Graham


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Friday, February 10, 2012 - 09:53 pm:

Tom
Can you tell us more about the attributes of the stock ignition system?
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 01:11 am:

Wow That would be great info to see.

I know they did some dyno testing at the MTFCI national meet in Mn.

I hope when you publish the test results you show what type of dyno was used also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 02:38 am:

Well guys, ya'll have about convinced me to put a pinto engine in the 24 and be done with it. I thought the whole challange in owning a T is to keep it running as it did when new. I have modern cars to drive without all of the so called problems associated with the T. I have been a mechanic for 40 odd years and know a lot of the new technology is a vast improvment of that in the past. I however am not looking for improvment but in keeping what is there working properly. I drive my car as often as possible and have two more in the works. All will have stock ign. systems. I get a lot of enjoyment in showing people the coils and workings of Henrys T. Use what you want, it's your car. I just don't believe that I personaly could feel much pride in using items that could not be considered stock on my T's. Have fun, KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 12:02 pm:

All I can say is for those who wish to run their cars with original parts - have fun operating Ford coils with original Ford condensers in them. Enjoy reinstalling babitt thrust washers and enjoy your old radiators with separated fins.

Since my racer was built to be light and fast, there are no magnets, no coilring, and the flywheel has been lightened as well. It runs a TrueFire ignition system that has been bashed around by many people here too. It's never given me any trouble nor the previous owner from what I know, but I can't wait to install my E-Timer and get better performance.

My roadster pickup won't get an E-Timer and it's quite happy with Ford coils and putts along at about 40 mph on magneto.

They are two entirely different beasts and they provide me with two entirely different driving joys.

The Al Gore syndrome is alive and well here! He preaches living Green, and pays how many thousands a month for electricity in his quaint little home??

Regards all,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 01:21 pm:

Hey Keith, Please don't put that Pinto engine in your T!

I don't believe anyone here is suggesting making you car look like something other than a T. It is your car to do with what you want but I'm betting the majority of T owners prefer the "original" appearance.

I started this thread wanting info about how others liked or what issues they may have experienced with this timer good or bad.

I know each of us has a point where modification of this car is forbidden in their own mind. To me that is interesting but sometimes hard to understand.
I just like driving and having fun with an original looking car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:04 pm:

I keep reading how nothing in a Model T can be up graded, that Ford engineers in the teens were perfect. I wonder what they do about the following?

1. Windshield glass: Don't put safty glass in the windshield because plate glass is better.

2. Be sure to use the Babbit thrust washer in the rear end after all a ride down a steep hill around corners is a lot of fun when you are in nuetral

3. Don't replace the rear axle inner oil seal 2511s, with the new neopreme oil seal, becasue you would not have the thrill of an axle cut in half.

4.What do they do with the brass oil shield in the roller timer. After all its great when the brass oil shield seal shorts the timer.

5. Don't put oil dips on the rods and while you are at it don't replace the heavy early rods with the later light rods.

6. Don't install a Ruckstell or accessory transmission, its a joy going uphill for 30 or better miles using your low pedal. Eastern drivers certainly would get a kick out driving up Mountain Washington with out an accessory tansmission.

5. Don't install Rocky Mountain brakes because the Ford Engineers didn't think you needed them

6. Be sure to use two piece valves they are great. Also you won't have to use the modern keepers and washers for the Chevrolet 350 valves.

7. Use cotton bands because they are far better than wood or kevlar.

8. Don't machine out the top of the early mains before 12 and install babbit because Ford didn't .

7. Install felt instead of using compression fittings on the gas fittings.

8. Don't install a modern sediment bowls on the bottom of your gas tank you would miss the challenge of the original bowl leaking. Also you would miss the ease of removing a glass bowl to clean rather than removing the entire original bowl.

9. leave flaps out of tires because you enjoy getting a flat. You feel more like the old days.

10. Use the early mounting short plates on the bottom of the radiator mounting bolt sets becasue it is fun to have the plates spin when you try to install or remove the bolt. After all Ford used the short plates on the early cars before he improved them with the long 26 plates.

11. Don't use a fat man wheel, its more fun to get in the right hand side of a coupe.

12. Be sure to use steel Disks in the transmission its fun to replace brake drums.

13, Its better to use original worn cam shafts than the new Stipe cams

14. Ford did not install stop lights it would be terrible if you did.

15. Don't change the 4 to 1 steering shafts to 5 to 1 you will miss the feel of early driving.

16. Use cork gaskets if you can get them they never break or tear.

17. Never use self locking nuts even if they are in a place where they can never be seen. Its so much fun using cotter pins.

18. Aluminum Piston are fragile don't use because Ford did not use them.

11. Use felt Dust caps on the inside of the front hubs. neopreme dust caps might last longer and keep more dirt and moisture out but they are not original.

I can think of many more terrible things about up dating but I think that is enough for now.

Rainbow curve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

Tom:

YOU HAVE MY ATTENTION !!
Awaiting your data on all systems.

Dave Huson:

Wow, you certainly covered most "Forum" topics.... Is there anything else ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:37 pm:

To sum up Dave's list: "That was one stubborn old man". I don't believe you could talk HF into anything even if you convinced him he thought of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 03:58 pm:

Tom, Any chance you could get a Truefire so we could have more to compare with. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:03 pm:

It was Henry Ford's way or the Highway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:12 pm:

Excellent, Dave!

12. Don't replace or reinforce your pre-1919 front radius rod. Loss of control and popping through that plate glass windshield is a thrill not to be missed.

13. Always crank with your right arm. The Ford Fracture is a badge of honor that will stay with you the rest of your life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

Dave
I must take a exception on the felt packing issue for the gas line fittings. I have had excellent results using them after a I realized that ordinary soap (the "scum" from the bottom of the soap dish works great) worked perfectly for me. I would not be as concerned with the compression fitting if I was using steel tubing, but copper tubing "work hardens" very quickly and becomes quite brittle when exposed to vibration (OK only my T has vibrations)!! I have a 1906 1 cylinder Cadillac and it had been done with copper oil lines. They were forever cracking off. I went to steel and never again.
Just my personal experiences and opinion!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 06:00 pm:

I think the one thing I hate the most about the E Timer is when the claim is made by the E timer pushers that the stock Ford roller timer is a problem, or unreliable. It is not, this is a false claim. A bald faced lie in fact. The Ford roller timer is fabulously reliable, and a good one serviced properly on an annual basis will outlast the car. (Note - a Tiger timer is not a Ford roller timer).

Dave Huson, to put the stock Model T ignition system on a list of things that is - in your words - "terrible" is disingenuous and wrong.

I can't imagine how one can justify spending $250 to replace your timer and lose the ability to drive home even with a dead battery. The E Timer makes your Model T useless if your battery is dead.

That kind of money is better spent on something that really is an improvement, such as a high compression aluminum head or a good balancing job on the next engine rebuild.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 06:25 pm:

Royce:

You are making me laugh Again ..........

"By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 06:00 pm:

I think the one thing I hate the most about the E Timer is when the claim is made by the E timer pushers that the stock Ford roller timer is a problem, or unreliable. It is not, this is a false claim. A bald faced lie in fact. The Ford roller timer is fabulously reliable, and a good one serviced properly on an annual basis will outlast the car. (Note - a Tiger timer is not a Ford roller timer)."

You have actual "hate" towards the E-Timer ?... and which E-Timer "pusher" said the Ford stock roller timer is a problem or unreliable ??
Royce, where can you purchase a new Ford timer & roller ??

You're a little OT, the topic of this thread is "E-Timers- What's your Feedback".

Guess you have to experience a E-Timer to give feedback ???

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:06 pm:

Royce Peterson:

Where did I put your roller timer in the list above. If you want to use roller timers do it. I did mention brass oil seals. I don't think many, even some one who does not believe in updates, would argue that the brass shield and felt is better than a modern neopreme oil seal. Anyway I hope guys new to the hobby read the list and decide for themselves what to do. Any one that owns a Model T or is interested in model Ts is OK by me what ever they want to do.

Side Bar: I run across a lot of real good looking brass rollers. They look a lot better than the steel ones. The axle is always tighter and they just seemed to be better built. I also suspect that the brass rollers will transfer juice better than the steel. Can some one who uses rollers tell me if they are original or not and if they are better than the steel!!!!

A937


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:11 pm:

Royce
I have a '13 with a Heinz coil box. Heinz coils do not work nearly as well as the later KW style coils. I believe it is related to the lack of the "rebound spring" in the points. As such the performance even with a set of "professionally" rebuilt coils was disappointing. No other coil will slide into the coil box either and this was a original coil box that belonged to my car. As I was planning to go on a 2500 mile tour I made the decision to buy a Tru-fire and it has worked flawlessly for about 9 years now. Still I was hoping one day to be able to put the Heinz coils back in the box. The e-timer is the answer to my prayers. Now you can pop the top off of the coil box and everything looks as it should. The coils even make a slight buzzing noise as they should running on magneto. As I start even my '27 on magneto I don't expect to hear a continuous buzzing noise when I am cranking the car. As I have a 12 volt battery in my car to run brake and signal lights which I charge from the magneto this is no problem either. Soon I hope to be able to run my etimer directly from the magneto without the use of a battery .

All this being said, I respect you more for your comment about "hating" the etimer. At least you are being totally honest and up front about your feelings unlike some others. I trust you can also understand how it has a provided me with a answer so I can drive my car reliably and retain as much of how Henry built it. Sure I could put some kind of a "conversion" coil box in and run later coils (which don't look right in my car). This way my change is virtually invisible. Yes I do carry a standard T timer under the seat as a just in case (and a spare coil). In 10-15 minutes I could be back down the road, although with the Heinz coils it would be with more problems per 1000 miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Saturday, February 11, 2012 - 08:24 pm:

Bob,

You asked "where can you purchase a new Ford timer & roller"

Yes, that is my point. I don't have any reason to purchase a new Ford roller timer. The original one is going to last longer than me. It will work perfectly and if I ever needed another I could use one of the spares I have accumulated over the years. I don't think I have ever paid more than $10 for a roller timer or a good used New Day.

I would never install a timer that would not run directly off the magneto. The E Timer won't run off the magneto, it requires that you have a battery. Any number of other timers are on the market for a fraction of the cost that work perfectly on MAG.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:50 am:

This turned out to be a long reply sorry about that.
I can't comment on the E-Timer except to note that Dean Yoder loves his a lot which means its a good unit.
Several points: I have to agree with Royce an original Ford roller commutator in good condition will last for years. Having used one for over 40 years and 70,000 plus miles with a second to exchange when it needed a clean up I can't see any reason to look elsewhere. One of the "new improved" systems may work better but enough to be of any great benefit maybe not

Go on a large tour and there will be every type of ignition there. I've yet to see such a difference that it would be worth changing. Everyone leaves in the morning and most get home that night trouble free. Often any of the options don't come up to scratch, usually because the other parts of the car are poor (such as compression) .
Unfortunately a lot of people are using inferior makes or worn out parts. Add to this other possible problems poor wiring, lousy coils, faulty coil boxes and often the end result is that a change to another system is chosen. End result is ( put in other type such as Distributor E-timer true Fire etc) and yep that was the problem, The commutator!!!

A good magneto ( and Ralph's take on that is just so wrong it works great) coils rebuilt properly ( thanks again Ron) good timer coil box and wiring and you will have a great ignition system which will run itself without a battery forever.

On our trip I used 3 different systems. Wanting to be able to drive without spending time on my back in a Motel parking lot I thought a True fire would be the answer at that time it was new and appeared to be a good idea). Reason being, it would not have any wearing parts (no roller contact). Worked great until I crossed into Arizona with the heat at 103 F plus degrees. It died and I suddenly found myself stuck in Kingman unable to get a reply from the manufacturer. Russ Fustnow rescued me and we scrounged a set of coils and commutator from his stash. On these we ran great all the way to Colorado till the commutator which was one of the repo ones chewed itself out.

Luckily I was with Bill Barth and we replaced the commutator with an Anderson. Once we did this the altitude bought on a Australian sea level spark plug problem ( the electrode would overheat) in our problem solving we had installed a distributor before finding out about the plugs. Being strapped for time I left the distributor on and put the Anderson under the seat until we got to Richmond. I then put the coils and commutator back on.

When we returned last year I put the distributor back on the second day out. I felt it ran better. I found out when we got to Spokane the Anderson was one of the cheap sample ones sold in the twenties which you could buy to try out Andersons product before buying the proper version.

Mark Hutchinson swapped the old one for a new one of his. In Seattle I removed the distributor and put on the Anderson to run back to Los Angeles.

So whats the point? The Anderson ran as well as the distributor, Maybe better, I only needed to run it on the magneto no battery as was required for the distributor. It was easier to start on the crank than on distributor where it needed a real fast strong pull to induce the coil and start. I'm getting old!!!

I had my coil buzz back, I didn't have to worry about having to charge the battery as much ( it had to supply current for starter, stop, tail and turn signals also.

Having the simple coils and commutator I can carry a spare coil and an Anderson or other commutator for a small outlay.

Unfortunately Iv'e got entirely off the E Timer subject but my similar TF venture as Royce pointed out leaves me with the need for a second expensive backup or carrying the original system if such fails. Obviously some don't fail but some do so one would be advised to try and avoid being stuck by failing to cover the possibility it may fail.

You can use whatever you think is the answer but I for one will stick with the original system on my cars which are basically original. On a speedster well thats a different story, the more period type modifications the better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 08:11 am:

Wow Royce you stated :

"I don't have any reason to purchase a new Ford roller timer. The original one is going to last longer than me. It will work perfectly and if I ever needed another I could use one of the spares I have accumulated over the years."............ as you stated........

Ford Timers don't wear out ?? Sure nothing will wear out if you don't use .

My Ford warranty must be expired ~!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 08:13 am:

Tom - Where is the HP article going to be published? Like Ron above, I'm curious to know more about the stock ignition system in the HP test. Did the stock system include a Ford roller and Ford timer in good condition? What was the condition of the coils? How was the timing set? etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money, Braidwood, IL on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 08:28 am:

My feedback is, I don't currently use an e-timer. But, after hearing all of the bashing about the original system and that we are silly not to change to an e-timer, I have decided I will probably never buy one because I am tired of hearing about it on seemingly every post on this forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 08:35 am:

I'm sure Royce will be on in a bit to defend that, but he does indeed get years and years from his Ford roller timers using a handful of grease for lube. I don't guess I understand your comment about nothing wearing out if you don't use it. Sounds to me like he uses his exclusively and it hasn't worn out yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 10:47 am:

This thread has gotten quite interesting. I hope someone can explain something to me; Why did Ford (and all other manufacturers) go away from the timer / buzz coil ignition? We have heard claims of a roller timer being good for decades of use (which I assume means many tens of thousands of miles). All with just putting a little grease in the timer.
So here is my confusion. By 1928 Ford went to distributor ignition (as far as I know they were the last manufacturer to do so). And yet we all recall that you needed to change points, condenser and probably plugs at least once a year and maybe more often. All this until electronic ignition came out in the '70's.
Was this just a conspiracy to reduce the cost of cars by installing a inferior ignition?

I think one thing the "anti etimer group" ignores is that not all T owners have equal mechanical ability. In my opinion we need to encourage as many people as possible (both new and old owners) to have fun with their T. I recall a wise person telling me once "90% of my carburetor problems have been ignition". If a person is going to have running problems on a tour there is a high probability it will be ignition related (read Peter Kables account above). Some of us can make a stock T ignition system work great. Many people struggle with it. I have met some extremely competent "gear heads" that can't. It is bad for the hobby to lose those people. So if a Trufire, or Etimer, or distributor keeps them in the hobby, then I am all for it. To try and make the person who struggles with timer and coils feel bad is not the group I want to be associated. As I have stated above I run all types for different reasons


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 11:08 am:

Well said, Les.

I don't know if it was the Selden patent deal that made Henry so anti-royalty and anti-banker, but it couldn't have helped. Have any biographies touched on his thinking? Seems akin to religious zeal to me.

The Model T must be the only car ever built that had zero cost in patent royalties.

The Atwater-Kent disturbutor was cheaper to build and easier to maintain than the timer and buzz coils. Due to its snap action points, a set of telephone dry cells would last up to 2,000 miles. That would have required paying patent royalties, however.

Why didn't Henry continue to use the high tension magneto like in the Model K? Royalties, no doubt.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 11:49 am:

Ralph
High tension magnetos were very expensive (relatively) to make. They also had their share of troubles and were mystifying to many people. The T buzz coil ignition system was pretty "intuitive", just as was the operation of the transmission and many other parts of the T. So it was the right designs for the right time. A larger percentage of T buyers had never owned/driven a car before. In every community there would be someone who became the T "guru" who understood the foibles of the ignition etc. And you could buy new coils and timers at every hardware and gas station. So your average owner could "muddle through" and he could always go to local T expert. And many owners maybe drove the 10 miles to town once a week on roads that were still used mostly by horses. That does not exist as well anymore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

Back to perspective :

I never bashed the stock Ford ignition system.

I re-build Ford coils back to Ford specifications, using a HCCT, and Ron Patterson's videos as a reference.

Most of the coils in our chapter's members cars have been either adjusted or rebuilt by me.

I appreciate the Ford coil system. Period. I also appreciate the Anderson Timer over any other non-electronic timer.

I also appreciate the efforts of someone who has the knowledge to devise a ignition system that is totally hidden in a stock Ford commutator and uses Ford coils. This end result is the E-Timer.

Those who have modified their flywheels or have an inoperable magnetos have a choice to have their engines appear stock, ie: Timer, coil box.

Just because a T guy doesn't have an operable magneto, does it make his car any less than a Model T ???

Just because a T guy chooses to use a distributor, Pertonix, True-Fire or E-TIMER, or any other ignition system, does that make him any less than a Model T guy ????

True, there may be only 100 E-Timers planned in the current production, this is only the start.

Thanks to Mike Kossor for his time, perseverance and devotion to his E-Timer project.

I will continue to run the E-Timer on my '26 Runabout, even though it has an operable magneto....... and Anderson Timer & re-built calibrated Ford coils in the trunk




Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes-Men Falls, WI on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

Bob

Very well said. Thank you for all your input.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay-In Northern California on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 01:42 pm:

Wow, I need some Visine after reading to the bottom of this thread! I say Solomon had it right...... split the difference and cut the baby in half. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Trenton, New Jersey on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 01:59 pm:

Bob, I thought the buzz coils were used with the E Timer? Am I wrong on this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 02:06 pm:

If a T had an inoperable magneto it needs to be fixed next time the engine comes out. It doesn't mean the owner is lazy or stupid, it just means he or she has something that needs attention to during the next major service.

If a guy has an E Timer or a distributor or a True Fire he or she needs to carry a spare set of parts so I (or anyone for that matter) can help them get going when they break down. All those things inevitably fail and then we have to get the flat bed because no one carries spares for these oddball one of a kind ignition systems, they are too expensive.

On the recent Texas T party there was one poor guy with a pretty speedster who spent every day tinkering with his distributor on the side of the road in 100 degree heat while the guys with regular Ford ignitions whizzed on by towards the next ice cream stop. I believe he was on the trailer at least twice, perhaps three days out of four. He was recognized at the awards banquet as a candidate for the hard luck award.

We had a 15 touring with an intermittent True Fire in our group. It would start backfiring / shooting ducks, quit and then start up again. Fouled a lot of spark plugs in the process. We spent a lot of time on the side of the road together. Luckily it made it home every day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 02:33 pm:

Royce
And so you have confirmed that ignition is the most troublesome part and the least understood. I will hazard a guess that the guy with the Trufire probably had poor connections or "carbon tracking" (which haunted him with standard T ignition and continued to haunt him)
The guy with the distributor. Well it it had points then most likely condenser or a coil that was no longer fit to use. Old coils are notorious for going "weak" when they get hot.
No ignition system will work well with dirty poor connections or overcome carbon tracking or defective insulation in a coil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

Will:

The Ford coils are used, but the beauty of the system is shorting out the bridge & vibrator posts with a wire, and simply removing that wire if you should want to go back to the conventional timer powered either by the battery or magneto,

As long as the primary & secondary windings in a coil check out to specs, even with a bad condenser, that coil may be used with the E-Timer. That coil would not give satisfactory service on a standard ignition with a bad condenser.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 03:36 pm:

Have to agree with Les on this Royce. If you can't keep a distributor system going you probably couldn't keep a coil system going either. As long as the dist. itself is mechanically OK (drive gears, shaft & bearing ect.) it has far fewer parts that need changing/diagnosing than a coil setup. Single set of points is visible as is the cap & rotor. They can be checked by eye for defects. You can't eye check a coil or condenser but their simple to replace and eliminate as a problem. I'm not favoring dist. over standard coils but like I said if you can't diagnose a distributor/ignition problem you need to do some reading real fast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 04:41 pm:

Charlie - I'm not going to get into this long-running ignition "debate", except to say that it is worth considering that I can't think of a single thing that can go wrong with a distributor ignition system that would require removal of the entire engine from the car to effect the necessary repairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 04:43 pm:

Well,.......okey, I suppose something could go wrong with the gear on the camshaft that drives the distributor shaft, but frankly, I've never heard of anything like that happening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

OK Royce, suppose a guy has a T that has SLINGERS in it and no magnets, what then? Is the owner supposed to plop down the green to replace all those magnets, spools, contacts, screws etc just to please you???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 06:11 pm:

Will, that is the way my 26 came, the mag ring was broken in two pieces, several spools were unwound, half the magnets were broken and the only thing holding the flywheel together were the mounting screws for starter ring. I installed a distributor and a Pertronix system and it has run very well for seven years with no trouble at all,i do carry a set of points and a condenser in case something happens.If the E-Timer were available then i would have used one of them.My 24 has the Ford ignition but i haven't driven it enough to notice a difference.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

Charlie, of course you are right - the guy with the distributor had a bad coil I think. If he needed any part for regular Model T ignition system any number of people had a spare. As it was no one had a spare 6 volt coil and the auto part stores couldn't help either. So he got to ride the flat bed back to the hotel parking lot.

I also think the problem with the True Fire was bad wiring. So many times people install these expensive gadgets when in fact the coil box wiring or the ignition switch is at fault. So their money is wasted and the car still runs like poo. Again, no way to help this problem on the side of the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Sunday, February 12, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

Royce
It is pretty funny in a way. When you consider that a new coil that would have fit a '56 on car probably would have worked just fine (or at least way better than what he had). Consider that every old early 12 volt car that I have owned ran a coil that worked on about 7 volts and had a wire wound "ballast" resistor in the circuit (which was bypassed for starting).
Another good solution would have been to take a ordinary T coil (even one with a "bum" condenser), tightened the points closed, soldered 3 wires to it, and hung it up with "hay wire" and he would have been in the game again. Somebody must have had a soldering iron or small propane/butane torch along.
I guess that is what distresses me; either a total lack of understanding of first principles or worse still a huge amount of "schaudenfreude" amongst the rest of the tour participants!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

I have to respond to Peter Kable's long post about the merits of other timers but the fact is simple that everyone should carry an inexpensive back up timer and at least one coil when drivng any distance with your T. If you have a dist then maybe a set of points and a back up coil cause few T's will have a loaner for you.
I'll have to agree and disagree with Royce but can't figure that out when he states everyone should carry a spare but on the other hand states his Ford timer will never wear out is not believeable.

I hope this thread is ending Soon but I still see some guys asking questions and others offering BS.
I just want to say Again cause some here didn't understand it the first time

I am not trying to convince anyone they should throw away their stock coils and timer and buy an E Timer. Simply if they are having trouble with maintaining that system or do not have a good mag. they may want to check it out and ask a few that are using it or look at the web site.

I believe Bob is saying the same thing. I am only a very happy user and have no financial gain with the timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 08:51 pm:

You just don't think you cars going to quit. That's why people don't carry spares. With the dist. guy's it's cap,rotor, points,condenser and a coil. Stock ign. guy's it's a spare coil and timer. Except for the points it's OK if the stuff is known good/used. As far as I know (from this Forum) true-fire hasn't quit on it's own and the E-Timer hasn't quit period. BUT, they'd need a lot more spare stuff if either did. I don't know what the recommended way the coils are shorted on the E-Timer or if they can be changed back on the road but again it hasn't happened so far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 09:25 pm:

I don't have an E timer but I commend the young man that took the time to develop it. All I can say is please don't judge all Model T guys by a few cynical people. Gene's thread was intended for the E Timer owners to discuss their experiences. For some reason it ended up like all the other E Timer threads. The same old naysayers who apparently can't help themselves seem to want to pick it to pieces. They would grouse about it if it were free and were offered a lifetime guarantee. If you don't care for it, don't buy it. End of story.

Lets continue this thread with discussion of E timer owners as Gene intended. For those that don't care for one please search out an old thread where you have disparaged its existence in the past. Have a little courtesy for some of us who would like to learn more about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes-Men Falls, WI on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

John has got it right.

If you haven't used an e-timer on your car, please stay out of this posting and leave it for those who have used an e-timer tell us their experience.

Many thanks to Mike for developing the timer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 12:51 am:

Royce,
Your problem is you have not driven your T far enough to wear out a timer!
I have used the stock ford system for the past 10 years averaging 7,000+ a year. I HAVE experienced the problems of the stock system.
I understand the feeling that the stock Ford ignition is the Heart & sole of the model T ford
that is my feeling also.
I installed my E-timer on the winter tour in Florida in 2011. The results were 10,000 miles of trouble free service, smother running, and more horsepower. I have 4 other T's they will continue to be stock system but my high mileage T's will have E-timers.

P.S. my new improved 26 model will have an E-timer on it I have my second one now.
ac


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 01:09 am:

Well said John Berch! Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 06:35 am:

Thanks John Berch for your truthful observation.

AND THANK YOU Dean Yoder !! ...You have the ultimate experience of both worlds, driving your T everywhere and the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 10:12 am:

My take...

No1. I welcome the E-timer, it's arrival is not a bad thing.

No2. Agree with Peter Kable...A good magneto, coils rebuilt properly and tested, a good timer, coil box and wiring and you will have a good and reliable ignition system.

No3. Too soon to say an E-timer is trouble free, although the fact that Dean Yoder gives this thumbs up is a good sign. Has it tested outside of North America? Will it handle extreme heat and vibrations?

No4. The T ignition system is one of the things that makes a T a T together with it's transmission and engine. We don't install and 5 speed Toyota gearbox, or a Honda engine for better performance, reliability and smoother running.

No5. Would I install an E-timer? Yes, if I had a speedster or racer in which power/speed trumps everything else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 01:35 pm:

I've got a a '16 Touring that's coming back on the road after 35 years of deep storage with a bone stock '26 motor, iron pistons and all. My neighborhood has steep hills that the T can't quite pull in high. I've bought an e-timer to see if it will be enough to get my T back home again without climbing the last mile with my foot pressed to the floor. I've got the new cam seal on order that will go in at the same time, so it will be a few weeks before I can give the results.

EricBack into the light

PS. the decals on the windshield are all places that my family toured this car in the early 1960's, including the Grand Canyon, Tahoe and Sacramento, all under it's own power from Pasadena, CA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

Eric, Your car looks like one I saw at the HME?

Make sure and let us know if you make it up the hill in High with your new E Timer.

Stew Harvey found this to be true with his car after installing one. He lives up a hill with the same issues as you have.

Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 04:48 pm:

I don't believe Dean Yoder used an E Timer to go to Alaska for that picture. I don't think Dean Yoder's E Timer has as many miles on it as my roller timer either.

I do agree with Dean, my roller timer won't wear out as long as I own the car. It probably is not possible to drive the car that far, at least not in my lifetime and what with having to sleep and eat and stop for bathroom breaks.

Either way, if you have a dead battery the E Timer won't work.

It is fun to discuss for sure!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 05:13 pm:

Eric,
If your car pulls the hill better or not with an E-Timer will be interesting to see.

Assuming you chug up the hill at 30 mph (1200 rpm) and looking at the dyno ignition test results, you would see no improvement with an E-Timer. In fact with the E-Timer on 12 volts you should have less power with the E-Timer then an the original (well maintained) Model T mag ignition system.

Let us know what happens.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Trenton, New Jersey on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

Oh man,,, How long you guys going to beat this horse


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 05:38 pm:

The word, childish, comes to mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode - Onalaska, WA, USA on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

This is called a discussion forum. Folks discuss issues of interest to them. Some just read learn something and others read and wish they had not. In the end, everyone is free to do as they wish.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 06:39 pm:

Most of the problem I had with a stock coil system was a roller timer, The ground from the roller to the roller Axel would be lost. The rest was the acid coastal air getting into the coil box and connections.
Parts in my heated shop will rust unless they have a coating.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 06:53 pm:

Hi Jim,

I'm interested to find out if the e-timer can help my T pull my hills better too. Other people with e-timers in their cars have reported that their cars pull hills better, but one can't believe everything that one reads. I've also heard that some people that haven't used e-timers believe that they aren't worth the money... ;)

On the other hand, unlike the dyno test, I don't have the time to optimize the mixture (needle valve) and timing for a given RPM while accelerating and decelerating in traffic. So I would guess that my car is always a little less (maybe lots less) than perfectly tuned while driving about.

So the ATA feature of the e-timer may help provide more usable power through a variety of speed and load patterns. Or maybe not. I'll let you know as soon as I find out.

Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

Paul
As a native Orygun-ion, you know as well as I the whole damned state is soggy nine months of the year and more so closer to the Coast.
No E-Timer is gonna a fix that problem.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 07:44 pm:

Paul,

If you would pack the roller timer with grease you would never have that problem. Much more cost effective than an E - Timer at $400 plus shipping.

Here's me in 2003 at the Texas T Party in Kerrville in pouring rain driving through a river (we call it a low water bridge LOL) with a roller timer. There was a guy with a distributor broke down on the other side cause his stuff got wet and wouldn't work.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

Eric
The E-Timer, in the automatic mode, has a pre-programmed (in firmware) assumed advance curve based on engine RPM. It is not a modern engine management system which senses as many as fifteen different driving parameters to provide the proper fuel mixture and spark advance curve.
The pre-programmed automatic spark advance curve may or may not help driving under the load conditions you describe. If you change the E-Timer mode to manual you will have to select the proper spark lever setting for hill climbing just like you would with the original Ford ignition system.
There is no E-Timer free lunch.
Now please don't misunderstand this comment, as it is not meant to be snide, condescending or smart aleck; if you're Model T is working correctly get used to driving the era technology as was required or get a Toyota.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 08:31 pm:

Hi Ron,

Personally, I hate Toyotas, I had professional dealings with the corporation and I disagree with their morals, but that's not important. Like many here, I've got lots of choices on what to drive, even though I've gotten rid of a few recently. Besides the T, I could pick the '10 Honda Insight, the '07 Honda Fit, the '89 4WD 3/4 ton Suburban, or the '75 Porsche 914 with a Chevy 327 V8 in it. The Porsche is currently being converted to MAF fuel injection, so I get what you're saying about modern engine management. I have no misconceptions about what the e-timer might or might not do for me, and I'll be the first to tell the group if it doesn't provide the value that I expect. So just stay tuned, I'll have a first hand report before too long without taking anybody else's word about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 09:48 pm:

I am not knocking E-timers, a stock coil system, tru fire or any other ignition system. The 400. price tag of an E-timer puts me into a distributor I already have. I just got tired of some thing or another giving me down time on a stock system probably mostly because when running a stock system I did not totally under stand it. After running distributors I do understand for the past ten years I had down time once when a set screw on the lower side backed out and jambed the distributor. To each his own!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Tuesday, February 14, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

Royce,
The Dempster highway AC photo was in 2008 at the time I was using a Anderson R.S. timer which had to be changed out at about 8,000-9,000 miles of good service. I finished the trip with a Old New day timer that was eventually replaced by the E-timer in 2011. I also had a point fall off of one coil on my Alaska trip.
My E-timer has 10,000+ GPS documented miles on it. How many miles do you estimate are on your roller timer ?
I have over 70,000 miles on the stock ignition
mostly using New Day timers. I have had coil, timer, and mag problems. When having mag trouble I was very happy to have 12v battery to back it up.
As I have stated before there is room in this hobby fore whatever type ignition you want.

P.S. The E-timer is the most trouble free system I have used


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 07:07 am:

Dean,

I estimate we have put 20,000 miles on my '15 since I bought the car from my Dad in the mid 1990's. Probably 15,000 from 1999 - 2009. I took off the roller timer and put it under the back seat and used an Anderson for a year in 2003 - 2004 to see what I was missing. Put around 1000 miles on the Anderson, so subtract that. Swapped back for better performance and less chance of a broken arm.

Bear in mind that I own and have owned several Model T's and this is only one of them, they all get driven as much as I can drive them given the fact that I have a job and cannot spend every waking moment driving around racking up miles.

By the way there's a Model T driving from Australia to Russia right now without any distributor or E Timer.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 09:33 am:

I can't see any way to blow off Dean's statements. He's got the mileage and a number of parts swaps to prove his posting. That's what counts most with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 10:49 am:

Charlie in no way am I or anyone else "blowing off" Dean's experiences. I am saying that tens of thousands of miles on the E timer pales in comparison to hundreds of millions of miles that have proven the Ford roller timers and the rest of the Model T. Dean is an experienced Model T mechanic who pays attention to details. His car ran perfectly on the original Ford system and it provides a perfect environment for a successful E timer.

The average customer for something like an E Timer or a distributor or a True Fire is a person who owns a Model T but has no idea why it doesn't run right. He probably doesn't belong to a local Model T club, and he doesn't know anyone who has a Model T that runs right. He is going to install his e Timer or distributor or True Fire and it won't be reliable, if it runs at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:01 am:

The first thing that comes to my mind is a person who has a non functioning magneto. I think it would be a great option to use until you could rebuild the Mag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:03 am:

...Or, he's free to use whatever system he likes without having to answer to fanatics!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlieb toms river nj on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:05 am:

Didn't mean you in particular. Just a statement. As to your second paragraph, we are in agreement. If you're changing your present system because it doesn't work properly chances are you don't understand it. I'm a prime example. If this Forum hadn't talked me into HCCing my coils I'd be in that same boat. After all, I thought for years, if they buzz they work, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:05 am:

Then there's that too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L. Vanderburg on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:06 am:

Do we need to canvas each purchaser of a Distributor, a True Fire or E-Timer to determine why they bought it? And then determine if they belong to a club? And then find out if it ever broke on them and why?

I thought we had already determined what you want on your car is your business, and leave the other guy out of it. Nobody is holding people down and forcing them to purchase one item over another. People want what they want. If your timer works fine for you, then fine. If you want a True-Fire, then fine. If you want an E-Timer, then fine.

Just because YOU say that the E-timer or True Fire or Distributor will not allow the car to run, doesn't make it so. Anything and everything can break on a Model T at anytime, and I think we proved that about a month ago.

If a guy's mag doesn't work, has no prospect of EVER working, maybe he can't afford to fix it, or maybe just maybe IT ISN'T THERE, then one of the other systems is the answer for him. Whatever that system may be.

Let's stop trashing someone's hard work, dedication, monetary layout for a product that brings something to the table, and start boycotting all the parts suppliers that cannot seem to read a diagram on how to manufacture parts correctly in the first place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:27 am:

Royce
I completely agree with you.
I long ago wrote off the "hair on fire" E-Timer reports to the thesis of your last paragraph. There are a lot of people who cannot make a stock Model T run correctly, including the fellow who originally convinced mike Kossar to develop the E-Timer.
The Dyno tests are a great start to fully understanding what is actually going on, but I do not agree with the explanation of poor stock 6v volt operation. In my pinion the alternative theories go back to your last paragraph.
I too would have liked to see the Dyno tests conducted with a known good Ford roller timer. If the tests are ever conducted again I will be happy to loan them one of Howard Cacchia's quality rebuilt Ford roller timers.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

I wasn't going to go here on this thread, given it's original intention, but it looks like the drift is here to stay.:-) Some proponents of the E-Timer are just as bad as some of the detractors when it comes to justifying their stance. I suppose there are good reasons some people do the things they do, but I don't buy the 'reliability' argument and, while it may have SOME merit, I don't really buy the 'inoperable mag' argument.

A new mag ring can be had for a lot less than an E-Timer. Now, I know some folks aren't mechanics and can't put in their own mag ring, so maybe to these folks, the e-timer makes sense. Maybe some are afraid of what else they'll find if they open her up. But heck, if you're willing to run it now and risk what you don't know, put it back together that way and still run it if you can't afford to do otherwise. What's the difference, really? The fact that you KNOW? If you don't want to open it up or don't know how and can't afford to pay someone, get a 12v battery.

As for reliability, What if a regular timer (Insert your favorite brand) lasts for only 3-5 thousand miles (And we know that some get MANY more than that). That's several years for most folks. Is that really considered 'unreliable'? Certainly not in my opinion. Consider it a wear item. Spend another $60 and move on.

You want an e-timer? By all means, get one. Say it's because you are just curious and had to know. Say it's because you don't like having to adjust your spark. Say "It's my car and @#&%, I just wanted one!" Given the latest test information, I'd even buy "I really feel like I need the extra 1 or 2 horsepower." But please don't tell me you got it because the original system is not reliable. It just ain't so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 12:30 pm:

Well said Hal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 12:33 pm:

Ron and Royce, I just dont get the part where you think everyone that wants to run something other than stock coils just dont know how to work on them. Many of us would like to try something new and dont care to work on them. From the sounds of most people that are on this forum and have the new e timer i am sure they have the know how to make a roller timer work they just choose not to. It just seems that you guys forget why we are in this hobby to have fun. Experimenting is part of that fun for a lot of us. Lighten up a little it seems as E timer trufire dist etc are here to stay and are a viable solution to the ignition system if one chooses to use them. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 12:36 pm:

Viable "Solution" or "Alternative"? Solution to what? "Alternative", I can buy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 01:00 pm:

Solution to winter boredom. Look at the excitement here!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 01:30 pm:

Hal's got a good point. The e-timer, or truefire, or distributor, or anderson, etc. are just alternatives. None of them will "fix" bad wiring and they will all run well if properly maintained.

Personally, I bought an e-timer because once it is installed, it will be invisible and can be converted back in less than 5 minutes if I care to, no harm, no foul. I prefer easily reversible modifications on old items, just in case. Anecdotal reports from other e-timer owners of smoother running and better low speed power are appealing. I know that I have a better chance of mis-tuning the timing manually, sometimes I find the spark fully retarded 3 minutes down the road after I start the car, and yes I know that the e-timer won't help with my CRS.

So maybe the car will have a little more pulling power on hills. Maybe it will run a little smoother. Maybe the ATA will do a more consistent job of keeping my timing closer to what it should be. Maybe not. But if it turns out to do any or all of these things, I'll probably keep it installed. But regardless of the results, I'll report them as objectively as possible, good or bad.

I know that every change like this come with compromises. So far, the people that actually have installed e-timers seem fairly satisfied. And I don't think that it is a conspiracy... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

RON PATTERSON AKA Coilman

I can't believe you just stated what you did. I certainly lost a lot of respect for you.

Maybe you didn't read ROYCE's statement?
Do You Really "Completely Agree with this statement"???

Royce stated
""The average customer for something like an E Timer or a distributor or a True Fire is a person who owns a Model T but has no idea why it doesn't run right. He probably doesn't belong to a local Model T club, and he doesn't know anyone who has a Model T that runs right. He is going to install his e Timer or distributor or True Fire and it won't be reliable, if it runs at all.""

I have read many of Royce's statements with disgust. but this one is the worst bunch of BS I've ever seen on this Forum.

Yes, while it may be true in some very few cases.. I can tell you that, here locally, there are many T'ers and I believe a few are the best T mechanics anywhere. I don't think there is any place with more MTFCA clubs and other Vintage clubs within such close distance as here.

It just amazes me what BS some people are willing to write...

Gene Carrothers "Average customer?? E Timer, Anderson, Z Head, Stipe, DuBats Crank, Warford, COILMAN, Floating Hubs and Many others. NOT Because car wouldn't run great, No Club, Can't figger in out, don't know any one with Model T runnning, I'm getting sick or reading some of this BS

Gene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce Peterson on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Gene,

It's my observation that the folks who break down on tour the most fit this profile to a "T". Not just an opinion, it is an observed factual analysis. After they break down a few times they typically learn how to make their T's run right.

Often the tour participants or fellow club members - guys just like me for example - help them fix their faulty wiring, etc. Unfortunately I can't fix a True Fire when it burns out a coil from having an open high tension connection on the coil box. Proved it in fact! But I can give a True Fire owner a hand loading the car on the flat bed.

I respect your opinion and I don't disparage anyone for their lack of knowledge. To not know something only means you are capable of learning it. Please don't take this personally, as it is meant to be a technical discussion and opinion forum. We are all here to learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 06:39 pm:

Royce
So given my situation with Heinz coils which I stated earlier, what is the "right" solution?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 06:40 pm:

Gene
Yup, but you gotta read and understand the points made.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

Gene:

Royce or Ron's BS comments do not surprise me.

I believe there are Model T owners who pay others to maintain their cars..... I also believe this group don't know enough to get their hands dirty.
This is a very small percentage.

Most T owners are in for the self enjoyment of driving and maintaining their own cars.

I see the comments posted by Royce and supported by Ron as an insult to most of us who are intellegent maintainers of our T's.

Everyone makes their own choice on what they want in their T's. ..... staying as close to stock as possible or any modifications.

I do not accept the hard line that a "non-working" magneto lessens the T driving experience, and on the other hand really do not accept all modifications. .... but I do accept the owner's choice.

My E-Timer experiences posted here are honest " seat of the pants" views. I have the privilege of sharing those experiences, either positive or negative.

The BS I read doesn't get my riled , just shows other Forum readers their closed minded, negativity motivation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

From the " Dyno Testing " thread, posted by Mike Kossor :

"The purpose of the Dyno test was to compare the performance of each ignition method manually adjusted without bound for the optimum performance. The distributor was operated with centrifugal advance operational and the E-Timer could have been operated in Automatic Timing Advance mode but that would not have changed the results. Each timer was manually adjusted for optimal torque/horse power at each engine RPM.

Now for the really great news Iím certain you will be giddy to learn; Tom was kind enough to record the timer housing position relative to TDC at each engine RPM. That information was used to produce the long sought optimal Model T timing advance curve. I am in the process of programming the E-Timer to closely follow this optimal advance curve in Automatic Timing Advance (ATA) mode. All I can say right now is that the optimal timing curve was not linear as originally thought and vastly different form the present E-Timer advance curve.

I suspected (ATA) performance improvement was possible based on the chassis dyno test data Tom took last summer on Dean Yoderís car during the Minnesota tour. The E-Timer provided a whopping 35% more horse power compared with the New Day timer at low engine speeds but the performance benefit dropped off in ATA mode as engine speed increased. A comparison between the present E-Timing curve and optimal timing curve clearly explains why this occurred.

Brace yourself Royce, the E-Timer performance may soon be even better than enjoyed and frequently touted by a growing number of users. I also plan to demonstrate the E-Timer operating solely from magneto power this summer just to show it can easily be done and without the usual restrictions on ignition timing imposed by magneto operation. I donít plan on making this a standard commercial option because I donít think this feature is of critical importance to folks other than you and will increase cost."



The flexibility of the E-Timer programming is in the software, that has been updated many times & now will benefit from these dyno tests done on last year's Minnesota tour.

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 07:31 pm:

Those who complain about Royce and my comments cannot come to grips with what we implicitly state, but massage it into some form of personalized criticism and respond.
I do not care what kind of ignition system you use on your Model T, but anytime the the subject even approaches making the point that the original Ford system is in some way inferior to all these after market gadgets (working or not) I am gonna respond and if you don't like it don't read it!
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

To Ron and Royce,

I don't think that anybody is saying that the original ignition is inferior. If I said that installing an e-timer on my well running car and I observed that it ran smoother and has more seat of the pants pulling power, do you think that I would be saying that the original timer is inferior? I wouldn't. The e-timer is just an alternative that comes with some compromises, not inherently better or worse, just different.

We do know that there are some aftermarket timers that were made with poor quality control which results in inconsistent timing and dwell and therefore poor performance. The e-timer doesn't appear to be one of those items.

Similarly, we know that the Z head produces more power than a stock head. Does that make the stock head inferior? Not really. Some folks prefer a Z head, other prefer the original. It's just an alternative.

Cost is another factor. If you're thinking about replacing your plug wires, should one buy the cheap modern versions or the more expensive "original" style. Do the "original" ones perform better? Maybe not. Are they worth the extra money? To some people, yes. They are just an alternative.

We clearly understand that you both consider the e-timer to be too much of a compromise, based on cost, originality and/or value. But that's your choice, others here may come to different conclusions. But it's not because we're stupid or ill-informed or just ignorant. I know enough that I can keep my mag power coil ignition system running fine, but I'm going to try the e-timer anyway. I believe that it might provide extra value to me and the way that I want to drive my car. That doesn't mean that I think that original ignition is inferior, just different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard from San Buenaventura, Calif on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

Please do not compare installing an e-timer with installing a Z head, Ruckstell rear, Rocky Mountain brakes, or an Ahooga horn.

Compare installing an e-timer to an ABS system, traction control, airbag, or tire monitoring system.

Group A consists of mechanical items that are period correct. Group B consists of items controlled by Y2K from the space age.

It's not about another timer, a better timer, an improvement, or whether or not it really makes driving a T more pleasurable. It's about a part that not even Jules Verne could have thought of, something from a different century than the Model T. It is totally out of place, and I personally believe installing one does a disservice to the hobby. Ya'll free to disagree; to me it's like giving my grandmother pink patent panties for Christmas: out of place, distasteful. Being invisible to the naked eye doesn't change the fact that it's something that does not belong into a car from the early 1900s. It's wrong. Wrong to even a retarded 4th grader. Space ship technology doesn't belong into the blacksmith age.

So install a Pinto engine and enclose it in a fake Model T engine cover. Nobody will ever know, especially if they don't check out the engine in detail. And it revs so much smoother! Right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B, Toms River NJ on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

TO THE HILLS!!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 09:59 pm:

Ron and Royce, That is all fine if you want a stock roller and coils, but if you put out BS then those of us that know better are going to respond. If I put something on my model t and it works great I am going to share it with others and if you cant come grips that it possibly could work better than something that was designed 100 year ago then don't read it. You two have beat this to death for many years and hijacked many a thread with you BS. You both must feel like your gods gift to model t timers. As i said before the new technology is here to stay so lighten up a little on it. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 10:40 pm:

Royce,
By the way the T traveling from Australia to Russsia HAS had problems with the original system It does happen!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:19 pm:

Bernard, in which category do you put LED lights that are now so popular for lighting on a T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Wednesday, February 15, 2012 - 11:42 pm:

Hi Bernard,

Your post is helping clarify some of the arguments against the e-timer. It's not about cost, reliability, value, performance or any other objective criteria. The resistance is really ideological. So the debate becomes a matter like faith or politics. Reason and logic will rarely change someone's ideological position, so really, the best we can hope for is mutual tolerance. Even though I've never met you, I respect your background and your passionate way that you expound your beliefs. I have appreciated the input that you have provided with some of the other questions I have posted.

Personally, I've never thought that I was right or that you were wrong, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And on topics like this one, I'm even willing to be proven wrong, but it won't happen through dogmatic declaration.

Since I've already purchased an e-timer, you have made it clear what you think of me. Perhaps someday, I'll be able work my way up to a state where you might consider me at least an equal to a retarded 4th grader.

Regards,
Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Berch on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 12:36 am:

Eric, I have to say you are much more diplomatic than most.

Bernard, I have to ask how old are you? Your profile doesn't reveal really anything. I raised two children. When I heard them call one another "Retard", They went on the time out chair. They weren't very old before they learned not to call someone by that name. As adults, they are probably less tolerant of that sort of name calling than I am.

If your comments and opinions have merit, they will stand the test of honest debate without name calling.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:02 am:

Eric, Very well said it is about time some of us stood up to these people. I have been bashed by them for years and have mostly stayed off the forum because of it. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:10 am:

Oil tail lamps lasted almost as long on the T as the magneto and buzz coils. They can be made to work as good as they ever did. Do you criticize people for installing electric tail and stop lamps?

The buzz coils were obsolete in 1908, and dreadfully more so by 1927. Yes, they are inferior, just as the oil lamp is inferior to the electric.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis - SE Georgia on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:33 am:

I put something to this effect into a PM to a fellow forum member the other day, but I will repeat it here.

I am one who likes the Model T BECAUSE of its antiquated obsolete systems. Then there are those who seem to like the Model T DESPITE its antiquated obsolete systems. To people like myself, devising a work around to eliminate these systems, be it the E-Timer, True Fire, fuel pumps, water pumps, whatever, is almost blasphemy because those are the very things that make a T a T to us. Without those things, a T may as well be just another old car. To us, it really doesn't matter if you can devise something that will outperform the original. We like the original BECAUSE it is different, old, antiquated, obsolete. I would be infinitely more content with a 20 horsepower original Model T than a 22 or even 25 horsepower Model T running on computer electronics. It does not enhance my driving experience. It takes away from it. No amount of adjusting coil points so they buzz like they were really working, or even worse, devising something to simulate the sound of buzzing coils, will change that.

It's kinda like buying your fiance a zircon. It's just not the real thing. No amount of explaining to her that it's the exact same chemical make up and that it's even better because it doesn't have a flaw, is going to make her feel any better about it.

I'm sorry I don't know how to explain it any better than this. I do not say any of this to offend anyone, only to try to explain why some of us feel the way we do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:40 am:

I have given hundreds of sets of plans away for HCCT's and have helped many get their cars to run correctly on coils. You guys that don't believe Royce has made a valid point that their are people incapable of making (or keeping) a model T running correctly are wrong. For those folks, pony up the $300-$400 to replace the ignition.

To the many who I know have now built a HCCT and learned to rebuild coils, spend the cash on something else other than an alternative ignition. Heck, you are about 25% towards a Ruxtell kit!

There is nothing to be gained on a car that runs perfectly on coils by switching it to something else. My 27 runs as smooth or smoother than any car in our chapter and will stretch out to 55 MPH+ on the original ignition system. I see nothing to gain by changing anything. But then again, if ya can't make it run right.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robb Wolff on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 09:37 am:

The concocted conflict of reality TV has never has never held my interest and the carefully crafted insults so popular in the presidential primaries have quickly grown old. Thatís why I canít believe I have followed this thread. ďI feel so dirtyĒ LOL

When Bernard brought up the oft maligned Pinto in the ďTĒ I just couldnít resist this exaggeration. Itís a Pinto in a Model N.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:04 am:

The last three posts highlights Eric's point even more. Some people cant accept the fact that there are many that like to make improvements to their cars. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:22 am:

You are incorrect Mike. Not only do I accept others making improvements I make them myself. My T's are not stock. In my case (on my very strong running T) I place the e-timer in the "perceived improvement" category. I just don't think I would see $400 worth of difference.

I learned something years ago when I was in sales. Worth is always determined by the buyer and never the seller. The second thing I learned is there are only two types of products brought to market, those that folks swear by and those they swear at. Some products actually fit both types.

You have spoken of intolerance. I can tolerate all the money you care to spend on your car for whatever benefit you chose. I can't tolerate spending that on my car when I don't believe the benefit is there.

Lastly, one of my T's has a distributor and I can speak as one who has walked down both sides of that street that it ends at the same points in town.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:37 am:

I am sorry you feel that way Gary but i dont think i am incorrect. It is a matter of personal preference. I think i get more performance out of something that you must not. That is okay with me. I have had both too and your mileage might be different than mine. I am fine with those that like stock. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B, Toms River NJ on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

Nice Gary. "Those that swear by it and those that swear at it". Not a 100% fit but very apropos for this thread. (Had to look up the spelling on that one)!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 12:29 pm:

I like stock or any other ignition system I admire those who can run without a water pump or take the chance running without an additional oiling system.
I cant do that, good radiators are expensive. My radiator is in good shape but will not hold my engine below boiling without a pump. 99 percent of the work keeping my T running is done by myself.
Driving in a parade or a few shows is not my bag. Dependability in short runs, or short spurts over 50mph is. Brakes I made ten years ago are close in design to the late discs. They have saved me several times.
I have ridden in Mikes closed cars and flown in planes he built from the ground up, both run very well and thank God he has an open mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard from San Buenaventura, Calif on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

Ricks,

since you specifically asked: I don't like LEDs in a 100 year-old car. Heck, I don't like turn signals in a Model T and feel sorry for those who have to install them in order to comply with the law. They just look out of place, period.

I'm not a purist for the most part, so I don't have problems with Z heads, Ruckstells, Rocky Mountains, etc. I draw the line where technology is used that is so far removed from the period of the car itself, that it looks wrong to somebody who is as ignorant as it gets. Opposite to the rules of the Santa Clara folks, I don't think a side or downdraft carb is totally out of place on a T. After all, it's a modification that could have taken place in the late 1920s or early 1930s. On the same token would I welcome an alternative to the RM brakes, as long as they are made true to the period, meaning they could be period correct to the untrained eye. Once I see a disk brake and a caliper with HONDA embossed on it, the line has been crossed because it's so obviously wrong. Computerized devices didn't exist in cars from the blacksmith age, and it doesn't take a college degree or even a average intelligence to realize that. The moment the word "wrong" comes into play, it's wrong in my eyes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

"The modifications on MY car make it safer, more reliable and improve itís appearance. The modifications on YOUR car are unnecessary, troublesome, gaudy and ruin the whole character of the Model T!"

Borrowed from a Model A forum


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:19 pm:

Mike

I meant you were incorrect to assume that I fell into the group of people who can't accept people improving their cars. If you install one of these and realize the improvement, good for you. My car runs to the point that I honestly don't believe I could tell the difference (especially $400 worth).

One of my T's is equipped with a distributor. That was done about 20 years ago and I don't see it as any better than the other one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 01:46 pm:

Sorry Bernard, My brakes say Honda. If they were not installed a deer, dog, or some driver who never seen a hand signal would be planted through my windshield. Last month I went through SD from Yuma. Sure can understand Ralph's front brakes after three near accidents from SD through LA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 02:13 pm:

I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that there are two schools of thought with regard to the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 02:30 pm:

I believe George Carlin said it best, in his bit about 'stuff':

"My s**t is stuff.
The other guy's stuff is s**t."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

Hi Bernard,

I know that this is off topic for the e-timer thread, but since you brought up disc brakes (again), here's a little history...

"Disc-style brakes development and use began in England in the 1890s. The first caliper-type automobile disc brake was patented by Frederick William Lanchester in his Birmingham, UK factory in 1902 and used successfully on Lanchester cars. However, the limited choice of metals in this period, meant that he had to use copper as the braking medium acting on the disc. The poor state of the roads at this time, no more than dusty, rough tracks, meant that the copper wore quickly making the disc brake system non-viable (as recorded in The Lanchester Legacy). It took another half century for his innovation to be widely adopted.

The 1950 Crosley Hot Shot is often given credit for the first U.S. production disc brakes but the Chrysler Crown Imperial actually had them first as standard equipment at the beginning of the 1949 model year. The Crosley disc was a Goodyear development, a caliper type with ventilated rotor, originally designed for aircraft applications. Only the Hot Shot featured it. Lack of sufficient research caused enormous reliability problems, especially in regions requiring the use of salt on winter roads, such as sticking and corrosion. Drum brake conversion for Hot Shots was quite popular.

Reliable caliper type disc brakes were developed in the UK by Dunlop and first appeared in 1953 on the Jaguar C-Type racing car. The 1955 CitroŽn DS featuring powered inboard front disc brakes was the first French application of this technology, while the 1956 Triumph TR3 was the first English production car to feature modern disc brakes. The next American production automobile equipped with caliper-type disc brakes was the 1963 model year Studebaker Avanti (the Bendix system optional on some of the other Studebaker models). Front disc brakes became standard equipment in 1965 on the Rambler Marlin (the Bendix units were optional on all American Motors "senior" platform models), the Ford Thunderbird, and the Lincoln Continental. A four-wheel disc brake system was also introduced in 1965 on the Chevrolet Corvette Stingray."

So technically, disc brakes conceptually pre-date all Ford production cars, though not widely accepted. We can also see that by the '50s, there were a number of effective disc brakes going in cars. So I wouldn't classify the concept as "space age". The disk brakes on my Mountain bike are mechanical. Would you accept accessory disk brakes for the Model T that were operated through rods like the RM brakes?

The rear brakes on my '75 Porsche 914 have e-brakes built into the caliper that are purely mechanical, they are cable actuated. The calipers are only marked with ATE forge marks and I have some old calipers that are grimy enough to look like Model T parts. Maybe something could be put together with this type of caliper that avoids the whole new-fangled hydraulic system...

Regards,
Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By les schubert on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

Eric
Here is a possible mechanical caliper.http://www.mfgsupply.com/gomini/gominibrakes/gominibrakesdisc/218070a.html I see it is rated for 400 ft lbs of torque with a 10"disc. So it would not lock up the back wheels I guess. I would guess that you could easily increase the clamping force as 150 lbs of pull on the lever is not much


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

In reading this and a couple other recent threads, a thought has occurred to me:

There has been talk of starting an additional forum. It could be a forum for those who cannot "agree to disagree". I just thought of a possible name for it; how about..........."T" ouche'....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

Sorry,.....just my weak attempt to help keep it light.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 07:58 pm:

I have the impression that the MTFCA was started in 1965, after the MTFCI, due to differences of opinion on original vs. improved. Not so?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

Hey Gary, I have almost completed my HCCT. I will gladly pay the postage for those who want to send me their outdated coils! KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

Hi Keith,

Unfortunately, all of the e-timer owners need their coils, the car won't run without them... Maybe the distributor guys have some that they aren't using. :-)

Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:06 pm:

Ralph
I have first person testimony that was NOT the case.
Bruce related to me the details (he was present) surrounding the founding of the MTFCA.
The MTFCI started in October 1953 and was homed based in Chicago, Illinois. The MTFCA was started in March 1966 in Tarazana, California.
The differences primarily related to geography.
The issue of vehicle judging came later. The MTFCA decided fine point judging was entirely to divisive and dropped it. The MTFCI went another direction.
I am just reporting.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Thursday, February 16, 2012 - 11:35 pm:

Thanks, Ron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 01:14 am:

Have coils, run distributor, anyone have a nice flat tube brass radiator for my 16? Using different systems could be a benefit for us T folk if the boxing gloves were put away!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

Hi Paul,

Flat tube radiator? That's so wrong. I run my '16 with a 50 year old round tube radiator and if a person just learns how to maintain it properly, there is no need for a "high-tech" solution. My car overheats occasionally, but that's part of the joy of living with a classic. What Henry designed is good enough and putting on a flat tube radiator just destroys the character of a Model T. I won't call you names, but you know that I'm thinking them. ;)

Beyond all that, I believe that a flat tube radiator may be in my car's future too.

I think it's T time,
Eric


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

Thanks Eric,

This 16 is going to have a few modifications to satisfy my thinking. The 16 engine will be left for someone who needs it. My Ts are driven in a fifty mile radius with lots of stops at G sales.
When folks see a T pulling unto a driveway its surprising what comes out that's been in storage for nearly a hundred years often at a reasonable price. Unless the brass radiator can do the job That I have to use a pump on now with my 22 its going to be replaced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 06:53 pm:

WOW!!, personal choice and personal decisions have now been shunned/banned as well, that is bloody sad, for those of you who want an E timer, hey just buy one, for those who want a distributor thats easy too, for the rest of us who love their T the way it was built,with inherent occasional problems simply enjoy it as it is.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Friday, February 17, 2012 - 10:30 pm:

Found my hiccup with a distributor today, a little tiny abrasion on the wiring. It has always run so well I had visions of something worse. Four carbs, headers, good oiling mild cam and balance should make it run almost as good as Henry's original!!
Whoops--- sorry delete the last sentence.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Oestreich on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 05:00 pm:

Is there a way to test my True Fire 6v-12v v
unit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 10:57 pm:

Oh don't start this thread again.. hee hee

Ya Ross, You can test that Maybe "Testing a Trufire"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 11:31 pm:

Wow, 6 volt vs 12 volt, detergent vs non-detergent, aluminum vs steel, lined shoes vs stock cast shoes, and so on and son on and... Has anyone come up with a constant velocity joint for front wheel drive yet. I've got nothing against improvements in order to promote safety but even then disc brakes on a model t kind of make ya wonder too. A model t with all available improvements might become a volkswagon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

dang what a long thread.
Gary Tillstrom I will send a pm but i would like plans for the coil tester sir.
I must say there was alot to read on this thread.I didnt bother reading it at the time it was hot but I read some of it tonight.Wow,what a difference of opionion.
I saw a etimer.Looks neat,well made.But I wouldnt want it on my T.But others do,so be it.Leaves more parts for me to use!
If I was going to change the system,I would go to a distributar.It would be similar to serviceing a 50's thru 80's car.Put a pertronix in it and be happy.Hum,I wonder if the Gm distributar could be modified with the electronic ignition built in the cap? :>)
Naw,let's keep it ford.Let's git a distributar and a box off the fender of a 78 pinto and put in the T.

Seriously though,Let's enjoy our T's and be happy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 01:37 am:

Call it the heart & soul, call it the warp & woof, the part & parcel, the essentials, that certain something. Call it whatever you like, but it amounts to that unique part or aggregation of unique parts working together to make up a single unique itemóin this case, an historic automobileóthat sets it apart from all others in its class. And the car that put the world on wheels really is absolutely unique. Take away the timer and you've lost something, though there's still plenty left. Take away the wooden coils and you've lost a little bit more, but yes, it's still a Model T. But at some point beyond a theoretical equilibrium, you might as well be driving a Taurus.

Once there was an old joke about a new groom who, with great anticipation, watched his new bride getting ready for bed. She took off her false eyelashes, hung up her wig, removed her jewelry, makeup, hosiery, etc., and by the time she was finished removing and putting it all away, the poor groom found he was alone.

But then, on the other hand...
I'll be the first to admit to adulterating my Model T. My 1915 shouldn't have an under-the-axle wishbone, but because that's safer, I made the switch. I shouldn't have an electrical system either, but for the sake of lights and turn-signals, and impart a bit more utility, I made the changes. My Rocky Mountain brakes aren't period correct, but still, they're a Model T item, so maybe they can slide by (no pun intended).

Some of us don't live near sparsely-traveled, country back-roads where blinkers and brake lights are irrelevant. Some of us have to traffic-jam with a lot of modern cars if we're going to drive our Flivvers at all and for that, you need big wheel-brakes. As mentioned, keeping a stock Model T ignition in fine-tune requires some specialized tools, testing equipment, work space, mechanical talent, arcane knowledge, etc. Not all of us can swing that. I'm crippled, so I need an electric starter. Hey, we do what we must to be able to drive these unique cars.

Is an e-timer too significant a departure? For me, yesóunless my magneto packs it in and then, yeah, I'll get an e-timer rather than go to the expense of yanking the engine. Hey, it's not like we're talking air conditioning, stereo sound-systems, 8-way heated seats and power windows!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob on Texas Gulf Coast on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 11:43 am:

I don't have an E-timer in a Model T but I have put electronic ignitions in antique tractors that start by hand. The results has been an easier starting better running tractor. Comments usually go something like...that is the easiest starting or best running antique tractor I have ever seen. When ask what was done to make it run so well I normally just stress the importance of keeping things "in tune". So..in the end I am complemented on how well the tractor runs. It is my choice if I give away my little secret. I can see how this might also apply to our T's. It is a personal choice. A right we all still have. By the way, I have one T with a distributor and a water pump (hanging my head in shame). I still get the same waves when I am driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Hughes, Raymond, NE on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 03:02 pm:

I hadn't intended to get into the middle of this, but here goes. I don't know what the big deal is with the e-timer. It is less of a departure from the standard T ignition than a distributor. I put an e-timer on a few weeks before I left on my trip from Lincoln ,Ne to Chula Vista, CA. So far the only problem I have had with the car has been some missing. It was carburetor related not ignition.

I am a proponent of the e-timer. So, it is not for everyone, but it is a great addition for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 04:55 pm:

Here is why i think this becomes a big deal on the forum. My 2 cents and my opinion.

A model T club should promote the use of period correct parts and equipment on Model T's. Its a Model T club for crying out loud.

Where period correct parts and equipment are no longer available, or proven to be unsafe (when used properly as designed), other options should be explored and discussed.

Promoting modern improvements when their primary purpose is to improve performance for the sake of improved performance to me is contrary to the preservation of the Model T.

Promoting modern performance items can lead to confusion to the Model T newbie, and in my opinion should be discussed in its own context.

Vince m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 06:07 pm:

Gene simply asked a question about the E-timer and many of us got our proverbial high horses and began a sermon when all Gene wanted to know was if anyone was or was not enjoying their E-timers.

We see a lot of folks run about on their high horses on this web site. They tout a correct car and nothing else will do. There are many opinions and there have been 15,000,000 or so Model T's all different just as are the folks who drove them and drive them today. It is nice to have a truly stock and correct Model T and it is fun to have one that will beat the correct one ;~)

If you have a stock Model T that runs well. . . run it. If you have a stock T and you can't get it to run well you try to fix it. If someone makes a trick part that makes your T run well then take off the non-performing T part, put it in a safe storage place, and replace it with the good new trick part with modern technology and have fun with your car with no problems caused by non-working proper parts.

When you are through with the car and want to sell it, let the new buyer learn about it and enjoy it as it is BUT show the buyer the old original part that doesn't work well. Let them make the decision as to enjoy a good running non-stock car or a correct one that sits in the garage. I choose to enjoy my good running T with the naughty parts on it and have a nice day while doing it.


Folks who need a magneto just might not have the money to go through the correct complete restoration of the Model T ignition system. So some of us pooh pooh the fact that they put a distributor on the car so they can enjoy it rather than leave it in the garage as it sits in correct form but unusable.

Gene simply asked a question about the E-timer and many of us got on our proverbial high horses and began a sermon when all Gene wanted to know was if anyone was enjoying their E-timers and to comment on how they run good or bad and not have to listen to sermons about correct parts.

This string is much like a fellow asking if a New Your cut steak is better than a Rib Eye and having folks tell him to not wear fur or wear leather shoes. They go on to say that he should eat raw vegetables. They do all of this while not talking about the flavor of the meats in his question. Talk about him asking not to hi-jack and a lot of folks did just that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 06:24 pm:

Frank,

I get tired of the E Timer misinformation campaign. The E timer (and distributor and True Fire and .....) supporters claim they can't get their Model T's to run right with the stock ignition system.

I believe them. They can't make a Model T run right. Got it. Understood.

I don't believe it is ever going to be cheaper to buy an electronic gadget, and it sure as heck is not going to be as reliable. I won't shut up on this Frank. Ford built a great ignition system, and I won't let every speedster owner who is clueless say otherwise without hearing from me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 06:42 pm:

Frank
As a clueless speedster owner myself I stand by your statement well said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 06:47 pm:

mike conrad (I spell your name the way you do, without capitalization) do you have an E timer or a True Fire?

Just because you own a speedster does not automatically mean you are clueless. Please accept my apologies if that was what you read in my post above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

Royce:

I expected you to spew your negativity, what took you so long ??

How, in all honesty, could you be so hardlined against something you have chosen not to experience ?

You were offered a E-Timer unit as a beta tester & flatly refused..... correct me if I'm wrong.

My E-Timer has been powering our '26 since November 2010 without any failure. The E-Timer that was used in the beta test phase did have two failures due to "spurrious" mislabeled value parts that was quickly corrected...... that was all part of the testing phase not the public released product.

Guess nothing I or others may say will ever change your closed mind thinking.

Please state the facts on the "E-Timer Misinformation Campaign" you say is present.

My T engine ran great with the standard Ford coils and NOS Anderson timer on magneto. Had no problem since I properly re-build & calibrate
Ford coils. The same engine runs & performs a whole lot better with the E-Timer, on Automatic Advance Mode or on Standard Manual Mode.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 01:21 am:

Bob

I have to agree with you. I don't understand why Royce chooses to destroy his credibility by taking so many poor stances on so many topics on this forum.

I enjoy reading about the E-timer and wish I could use it with the dizzy on my speedster. Would be an interesting experiment. (There are no magnets in my Speedster so no magneto).

When Adam Doleshal finishes rebuilding my touring, I might consider trying it then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 03:20 am:

The OP asked for feedback.......not opinions.......but what else is new.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 06:42 am:

Bob,

I will disagree with anyone who says the Model T factory system is not reliable, or who believes that a Model T runs poorly because of the factory ignition system. Those sort of statements are ignorant and false.

I was offered an E Timer at full list price. At that time I think it was $295, a crazy amount of money for a timer. Now they sell for $450! When I learned it would not work on MAG I was uninterested even if it had been free.

I am being objective and factual. The E timer is a product that does not solve any problem, yet hurts reliability.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 07:09 am:

"..yet hurts reliability."

What evidence do you have of that, Mr. Objective and Factual?

rdr
Kingsburg, enroute to Lebanon (OR)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 07:32 am:

I have heard too often that this is the cure for a non working mag. Before you jump into that, let me share something with you guys. I replaced the field coil in a chapter members car because the mag was not working and he wanted it to. Upon dissassembly, I found that engine had tossed three magnet retainers. One of those retainers caused a broken magnet which half of it found its way between another magnet and the flywheel. This car ran smoothly as I drove it onto the trailer and there was no indication that it was a serious safety issue just waiting to happen.

I cringe when I hear this (or a distributor) is the fix for that situation. If I can find the photos of that I will post them.

We talk about safety and have many advocates here about spokes, front radius rods, plate glass, etc., yet we give the non working mag a pass and brag up this $400 wonder as the correct fix all. That doesn't work for me.

My 27 touring which is not completely stock yet does have its coils will hit 61 MPH. I'm curious how much of a huge improvement can I expect for $400? After all, Bob J stated his car runs, "A whole lot better". How do you measure that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 07:52 am:

Royce,

Just to set the record straight, you were offered a loaner E-Timer at absolutely no cost or obligation so you could become familiar with its installation, operation and performance. The goal was to educate you on its merits and potential limitations first hand so you could comment about it based on knowledge and experience; not wild conjecture you so enjoy doing. You refused the offer convinced that your battery would die without a charging system leaving you on the road stranded - another false assumption unless you routinely drive more than 48 hours continuously using a standard car battery. This summer I demonstrated E-Timer efficiency by running a Model T engine using a standard 9V battery for more than 1/2 hour.

The original ignition system can and does perform very well when all the components are in good condition physically, electrically and have been properly installed, aligned and maintained. You have already invested in the tools, training and experience necessary to achieve satisfactory results so you can not perceive the value of the E-Timer. Many folks have not made these rather substantial investments in tools ($400 to $1500 depending on HCCT, etc.), training or experience. For those folks and others who do value their time, the E-Timer represents a substantial value considering the remarkable performance it provides with only minutes of installation and absolutely no maintenance.

I also think it will be difficult for you to convince the folks who continue to enjoy driving their car with electrically inoperable (but physically sound) magneto and great performance that the E-Timer does not solve any problems or present considerable value.

Your statement that the E-Timer hurts reliability is a serious claim which I sincerely hope you are prepared to substantiate. I am not aware of any circumstance or event which has stranded any production E-timer user on the road with nearly 20,000 miles driven so far. Iím not sure the same can be said for the original ignition system without vigilant maintenance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 08:01 am:

Gary:

I measured the difference " by the seat of my pants" driving experience.

The dynomometer tests are factual.

Royce: You stated : "I will disagree with anyone who says the Model T factory system is not reliable, or who believes that a Model T runs poorly because of the factory ignition system. Those sort of statements are ignorant and false. "

Where in the world did you document this information ?? The E-Timer website says nothing that the stock ignition is cause for the engine to run poorly. Improper maintenance is the cause of poorly running engines with regard to ignition. Stock ignition is reliable when the magneto, timer, plugs, connections & beginning timing is in perfect order. The average T owner may not have the personal knowhow to have everything in order, but I'm sure those owners are educated thru this Forum , internet & printed matter as tools to achieve this goal. ...... or get to know someone who may help.

Price you quoted is if you do not supply a Ford commutator core with your order. Facts are at : www.modeltetimer.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 08:20 am:

Gary:

How much would you spend for reliable braking at 61 mph ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 08:20 am:

Ah yes, the old "seat of the pants meter". That has the ever popular objective scale reading of course.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 08:30 am:

Gary:

You have to experience before a comparison is made. Most T drivers/owners do not have sophisticated equipment or have access to that equipment....... so are you willing to document analytically for the rest of us ?????

Gary, both of us properly rebuild Ford ignition coils & know the benefits of a proper original ignition.... I see a definate advantage in the E-Timer above the stock system.... that's something you may have not experienced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 08:40 am:

Bob

I understand seat of the pants experience, I was just yanking your chain. You haven't really given anyone anything to go on (runs much better) doesn't give the comparison you are talking about.

I wished you would give something like, "I noticed less vibration at 32 MPH to the point that I can actually identify the car in the rearview mirror where before all I could tell was something was behind me, but not make and model". Or, leaving my driveway to the north I used to stay in low until reaching the top of the hill but now the timer finds the correct advance rather than one of two setting and I can use high".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 09:39 am:

Gary:

The T can start out easy in low pedal, keeping the throttle the same, release into direct without a shudder, just picks up speed. Did the same in the snow season & had better control of the car on the snow covered roads in town, rutts & ice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 12:05 pm:

Don't get angry with Royce or any other posters on this site. We need all the information we can get. Royce is a gentleman and has taught me a lot over the years. I don't agree with everything he says but most of his technical information is dead on. Many folks read his wisdom and get their problems solved. Not everyone gets it right all of the time but there are many posters less knowledgeable then Royce. The best thing about this site is the depth and breadth of knowledge posted here. The trick to using this site is to read carefully and read all of the posts in a string. Everyone gets on their favorite horse and pooh poohs things from time to time and we must forgive them. I post pictures of my grinning pig from time to time and some folks laugh and others just get angry at me.

We all know that there is more than one way to solve a problem and reading everything carefully will get you a long way down the road. I know a lot of technical things about old cars in general but know very little about the technical workings of the Model T ignition system so I make fun of it but marvel at it when it works correctly, The idiosyncrasies of Model T's command special care and when people take the time to volunteer information they do it because they want to help others.

Yes at times folks don't teach but rather than teach they ventilate by ranting and raving. It does take up band width but the next time they post it is usually something very important and well written and we must appreciate their efforts. So I read the ranting and raving and forgive them while waiting for them to post something important for me to learn about.

You can pretty much tell when a guy is ventilating and when he is teaching.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

I've seen few electronic devices last more than 10-15 years and most of those operate in much better environments than the E-Timer. Only time will tell, but I could see it failing unexpectedly one day. I don't see a regular timer failing unexpectedly. I would think you would see a lot of performance degradation beforehand. Of course, if you disregarded it....

No one needs a lot of expensive equipment to make their car run good. If you have a good mag, it will stay a good mag for decades. That leaves coils. Many people out here rebuild coils. Myself included. All anyone has to do is get them a set rebuilt and they are good to go for many years/miles before any more work need be done.

As for "Mr. Seat of the pants", aren't you the one who accused me of not having any scientific method and wanting the E-Timer to fail in my testing? Did you not also pledge to do some of your own testing and report your results? Whatever happened to that? Also, as I recall, the dyno testing results showed very marginal differences between the stock system and E-Timer up until the RPM's exceeded the range most people drive in. I could be wrong on this account, as I don't have the info in front of me, but that is my recollection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 01:43 pm:

What if I told you that somebody has developed an electric engine, hidden inside a genuine Model T engine block, so that you would never know it's there? This engine costs a notch less than a standard Model T engine rebuild, consumes no gas, and as a special treat it has a built-in sound simulator that emits the oh so typical sounds of a Model T engine. It surely is the better power plant and will make your T accelerate and scoot along as if it had a 50-hp engine. Unless you tell somebody, they'll ever know. Even the throttle is connected to the lever on the steering wheel as before!

This is an example of trying to argue that being the better product is sufficient reason to buying and installing it. It's like arguing that sex with a 16-year-old is more exiting than sex with the Missus. So what? I would not cheat on my wife with a 16-year-old, I would not install an E-engine in any of my Model Ts, and I would not use an E-Timer who mimics the function of a real Model T timer, even if it is much better. Arguing on performance is lost on me when the argument that would sway me is an ethical one: staying true to the nature of a truly unique, antique automobile and experiencing it the way it was designed to be experienced.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 02:37 pm:

I understand various people's dogmatic opposition to the e-timer. But I don't understand why a Bosch 009 distributor seems to get a pass from some of the same people. And a number of the distributor guys seem to prefer a Pertronix setup because it appears to improve reliability over standard points in a distributor.

I may have this wrong, but it seems like a 009 with Pertronix costs more to install than an e-timer (new timing cover, distributor, modern coil, Pertronix unit), won't run on mag, can't use the vibrating coils, has the same kind of "magic" electronics that can go from running to dead in an instant, eliminates most of the original engine wiring, and is visually nothing close to a "T".

The e-timer seems better on some of these factors, visually consistent, uses original wiring, uses original coils, etc. Of course, if a Bosch 009 is considered more of an abomination than an e-timer by the purists, then my question is moot.

As the equivalent of a retarded 4th grader, I'm just trying to get a grip on the current popular interpretation of the gospel around the Book of Henry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 19, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

Eric,

There are some who feel exactly as you say, but there are plenty who feel distributors are just as bad or worse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 12:35 am:

Whew it took a long way to get way down here and I wonder who the Heck started this thread anyway. hee hee

I find it interesting how some people seem to love to critize others that just want to get out and drive their model T's and have fun.

It's hard for me to understand the guys that Rant and keep going on about how bad, unreliable, cost ineffective, unholy, and just downright communistic that something so unobtrusive as the original Ford timer with some fancy stuff inside instead of the contacts and roller that Henry used. Then not to mention using false and disrespectful info about such an item or the guy that invented it.

Yes, I too have my "I'll never do that to MY T" especially if strangers to the cars would not be able to look and see what a T was supposed to look like back in the Day. Dist's and disc brakes, radios, and Pinto engines I don't like, but if you want to do that to your car just don't park by me and say this is also a T like in the old days.

I do find it good for anyone that chooses to balance his engine and wheels or use new cranks with big Chv valves, a wild cam or add period brakes and accessories of the day. A passerby will still get the feeling of what the T's were about and better, the guys driving will also have a lot of fun.

I love my E Timer and the guy named Mike Kossor is OK too!

Amazing how very few people that have one of these timers would say they don't like it. Haven't met one yet. That's hard to say about any other T part available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 02:33 am:

Wow Gene,
Great to see that you were able to get back and search through all the crap looking for the answer to your original question. Perhaps you should have put in a disclaimer "all those who are not interested in alternative Model T ignition set ups other than original, please ignore this thread and do not post!". I would have loved to have read more reports on the E timer and the experiences of those who have installed them,as I assume this was the original intent of your thread!I have a car that I am keen to fit an E timer to and do a comparison test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 09:25 am:

Warwick:

To ease your burden of searching..............

www.modeltetimer.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, July 20, 2012 - 10:53 pm:

Warwick, Please post with polite disclaimer for those others about the results of your tests.

I'll bet now on the results you'll come up with.

Good Luck and thanks for your trouble testing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

Warwick Landy : Do you have any comments on your engine's performance with he E-Timer ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 09:08 pm:

I always learn something when I go to this forum. I have learned that most are very passionate about their Model T. I have learned that everyone has an opinion. I have also learned to ignore those that think their opinion is more important than everyone else's. Those that really know their "stuff" seem to minimize their "opinion", and get down to "just the facts". I have tried to follow this post, just because I am curious about anything related to Model T's. Too bad we had more "opinion" than actual facts. Maybe someone will be brave enough to try to post this question later, and we will get some facts and the opinions can be left out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 04:00 am:

Bob-
Fitted the E timer today and was able to do some short test drive around my local test track. During my first test run I was experiencing an intermittant miss. I finally traced it down to a dodgy spark plug on number 1 cylinder. The E timer installation instructions insists on regapping the plugs and cleaning them. Maybe I messed one up during the clean and gapping process but after replacing it I was ready to drive.
My Model T has always been a fun thing to drive and given me great pleasure. The E timer has increased the pleasure and given me a greater understanding of how I must drive my other T with its standard ignition system.
In summary,the E timer has smoothed out the the running of the engine accross all throttle ranges and provides a lovely smooth torquey feel when pulling away in high gear. Most noticable is when in the overdrive with the Warford there is no resistance due to incorrect timing,it just continues to pull away smoothly until cruising speed is reached.
Clearly the E timer is not for everybody but It is for me on one of my T's!
Warwick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 11:02 am:

Warwick: Welcome to the "just the facts - minimal opinion - those that know their stuff" E-Timer group... as Michael Thomas stated.

Michael: Those of us who have experienced the E-Timer will only give the facts since our experience is a result of a better ignition enclosed in stock parts.


Warwick: On the 9 volt transistor battery test two weeks ago, I did have some engine "miss" due to the lower voltage after close to 90 minutes. All I did was to switch back to the car's 6 volt battery/charging system the miss was present but for only a minute or so till, I believe , plug carbon burnt off, and engine ran without problem all the way home. Plug gap I use is .025" , on the "Edison 14" plugs....... which are just as good or better than the original Champion X hot plugs.

Also, have run with the hot air intake pipe installed...... experienced power losses with air temps over 90 degrees F. ..... will run without pipe today ( 95 degrees F. now at 11AM in New Jersey, USA )

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 02:56 pm:

I would be very interested in your comparison of with hot air pipe vs. without hot air pipe. thanks for your insight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

It would seem that that the only people who should be posting here are ones who have experience with e-timers, Those who post "I would never use one" are off topic unless they have tried one and found it to be lacking. How many of the guys who would never use one are using modern oil in their Ts, or modern bearings? It is interesting to see some real feedback on an interesting subject. I have often thought of the T engine as a 4 cylinder Briggs and Stratton engine, no oil pump, no water pump, no fuel pump, and starts nearly every time as long as it has gas, spark and compression. I used a lot of B&S engines on irrigation systems in the past, and the best thing that ever happened to them was when a retrofit electronic ignition became available for them.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

Oh, my, Gus; there you go using real world experience and logic. The Model T is more like a religion to many. Their faith in obsolete buzz coils is not to be challenged.

My only experience with the E-timer is riding with Gene quite a few times. It cruises at 60-65, just as before, but it seems to run smoother now, and he doesn't dick with the coils anymore.

I am surprised at how little energy it takes to make spark, judging by the life of a little 9v battery. Who'da thought?

Just curious, Mike: could other coils be even more efficient than T coils?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

Bob and Gary
If you want 61 mph brakes I suggest 4 wheel. The fronts are going to be $1,000.00 or so!! With mine I can now do a panic stops with NO steering pull, even with one wheel in the grass.
So for the deviation!!
I have a E-timer, a Trufire, and buzz coils. I like them all for different reasons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 05:53 pm:

A Scat crankshaft, Stipe camshaft, Z-head, adjustable tappets, stainless steel valves (or modern Chev valves, Fun Projects voltage regulator, etc, etc,....and nobody gets excited. But mention an E-timer which requires no mods and is easy to change back to stock and there are those that think it's just a terrible thing to do! (???) I guess I just don't get it.

If money (and storage) were no object, I think the ideal situation would be to have a half dozen or so "T's of different body styles and let the purists guess which one has the E-timer! Pretty hard to be disgusted with a Model T if you don't know which one to be disgusted with. I've got three "T's now,.....I think I'll make that my goal. Two or three more and you guess which one has the terribly disgusting E-timer! Ha,ha,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

Ralph,

Good question. I don't think so since reliable ignition requires a minimum amount of spark energy which can be approximated by the formula: e = 1/2 x L * I^2 You can reduce the current draw (I) by increasing the value of coil inductance (L), however, the dwell time required to charge the higher inductance coil to the required current (I) will take longer dt = (L x di)/Vbat. Still, it is a bit surprising a little 9V battery ran the car as long as it did considering the coils charge up to about 5.5A prior to firing; granted, that level of current draw lasts less than 0.0015 second but still. Thanks for your on topic question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 07:27 pm:

Hey Ricks,
Do not under estimate the power of a 9 volt radio battery. I carry one with me when I am traveling in my Ford GPW. On more than one occasion I have found myself with a dead battery, and a bit of wire and a 9v battery, you can jumpstart the little jeep by wiring the 9v to the coil, shutting off the ignition and hand cranking it. Once the engine is running, you can turn on the ignition and it is continues running, you have enough out put from the generator to disconnect the 9v and save for another day. But don't carry a battery in your pocket with a bunch of change, or you will have a hot pocket and a dead battery.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

Mike, I guess we can conclude the coils aren't obsolete, just the buzz is...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

This discussion has been wonderful for me. It shows the passion each member has for his opinion. I am now beginning to see the value of the E-Timer and am pretty much sold on its value.

BTW, I agree with Royce on his views of water pumps... Fix your cooling system and dump the pump. But if I can improve the running of my T with an E-Timer then I'm all in.

I bought a Porsche 911S back in 1968 and found it's stock ignition system to be a real problem. Someone advised installing a CD system for it and solved a real problem for me... New platinum spark plugs every 5K miles at $50 per plug, no longer necessary and no tune ups for 50K or longer. This simple addition brought out the real potential of my engine.

If it worked there then it should work here... On my lowly T... I hope. Just my $.02 worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 09:38 pm:

Took the hot air pipe off this morning, replaced the tie rod bushings & went for a ride..... noticed that there was more power & less stumble with a hot engine on a hot 95 degree day.

Did observe having to use a bit richer mixture... trade off ??? The stumble starting from a stop is gone for most part & engine runs a bit better crusing at half throttle.

Did not attempt to run on a different brand 9 volt transistor style battery..... skies were threatning & got a bit damp before getting back to the garage.



Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

Harold i think the difference is a bearing replaces a bearing and a crank replaces a crank. The e-timer replaces the cars entire ignition system.

Kind of like putting in a modern power steering system. Not too many T guys would go for that.

BTW i dont care for modern cranks or brakes either..



Vince


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Sunday, August 05, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Vince,

Just for clarification; the E-Timer replaces a single, hidden, small component of the original ignition system: the roller. That's it! It uses the original coils, original wires and original timer housing without any modifications to the car.

Roller Vs Vane


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 08:32 am:

I stand corrected Mike. But look at that.

Vince M


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:00 pm:

Hey Vince, The idea is to NOT look at it but enjoy the improved performance by just driving the car and not thinking about when was the last time you serviced it.

Mike, Very nice picture too


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:14 pm:

I guess...but its so far away from authentic. A thin line between that and hot rodding in my opinion.


Vince


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:20 pm:

"If money (and storage) were no object, I think the ideal situation would be to have a half dozen or so "T's of different body styles and let the purists guess which one has the E-timer! Pretty hard to be disgusted with a Model T if you don't know which one to be disgusted with. I've got three "T's now,.....I think I'll make that my goal. Two or three more and you guess which one has the terribly disgusting E-timer! Ha,ha,.....harold"


From where I sit, if the e-timer is so much better than the original ignition system, it shouldn't be that difficult to determine which T's have the e-timers and which T's have the original ignition systems. On the hand, if the performance of each T is indistinguishable from the other, then why bother with the e-timer?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

"I think I'll make that my goal. Two or three more and you guess which one has the terribly disgusting E-timer! Ha,ha,.....harold"

Pretty easy, Harold. Sign up for the Montana 500 or even the Santa Clara Speedster run and be openly disqualified for cheating and consequently being send home in utter disgrace with a kick in the arse.

Then voice your excuse: "But it ran so smooth, and had you not looked, you would have never seen it!"

It's like you having sex with that 14-year old and the telling the judge" But, your honor . . . have you even tried it? It's really not that big of a deal and if you don't ask for ID or the age of the girl, you'd never know!"

Great. The ends don't always justify the means.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Jeez! Some people want to use the E-Timer and some don't. Big deal, get over it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:52 pm:

YOU are enjoying MY hobby wrong! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 12:57 pm:

I've disagreed with Mike on this point in the past. I can kinda go along with him if we are comparing the E-Timer to running on battery. However,the E-Timer does not just replace one little part as compared to the T running on mag. Physically, yes. Functionally, no.

When I tried the E-Timer, I was asked if I noticed the smoother operation. You can choose to believe me or not. But I didn't notice any really smoother operation. Not because the E-Timer is not smooth (I'm sure it is), but because my T's don't run rough with the original system. I have no rough operation to get rid of. I guess I don't understand what roughness everyone is talking about the E-Timer curing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

You guys are going to love it when I introduce my new T accessory: the E-Waterpump.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:23 pm:

You mean you don't already have one? The place I bought my battery from on Saturday just happened to have these for Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 01:46 pm:

Exactly. The E-Timer is intended to fix something that isn't broken. Warwick had to buy one to figure out the timer was not the cause of his problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 02:04 pm:

Royce, Hal & Bernard...... do your opinions really count here ?

Feedback means that you have tested/tried something and you offer your results of your experience.

E-Timer Feedback. That's the title of this thread.



Your negativity without experiencing has been documented here.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

Electronic ignition is great Bob. So is fuel injection etc.

I think this issue is about converting a model T into an experiment in performance enhancement.

I think its fine to add electronic ignition, but its a radical departure from the stock Model T.


Vince m


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

Yes Bob. Both of our opinions matter.

My opinion is the Model T has a great ignition system that has proven itself over millions of miles and over a hundred years in service. That circuit board is going to fail in maybe 5 years or less if the car is driven sparingly.

I spend my time in my day job troubleshooting aircraft avionics and electrical problems. Electonics does not like temperature variation, moisture, oil, or vibration. Guess what, the Model T is an ideal worst case scenario for that type of device.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

Bob,

YES, my opinion counts. I HAVE tested an E-Timer, not that I recall anyone electing YOU sheriff. And WHAT did I say that was negative?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 06:01 pm:

Royce,
please read Warwicks post again, the only problem was a plug after fitting the E timer. I don't believe the magneto was giving any problems.
Warwick lives only 20 miles from me and I talked to him about the E timer only yesterday, its fitted to a T he likes to keep up with the flow of traffic with, warford O/D, Z head, brakes etc,
he has no problems in using the original set ups as we are at the moment rebuilding one of his other T's to Henry's magneto specs, (costing a lot more than just buying a E timer) removed the after market magneto.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

"YOU are enjoying MY hobby wrong!"

Great, Derek!

Hmmm, why aren't we hearing these same rants about the Fun Projects Voltage Regulator? You know, the one that looks original on the outside, but uses electronics to automatically control the charge rate of the generator, rather than under- or overcharging the battery.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 08:51 pm:

Ralph,

I have asked myself the same question. To me, the difference is that the charging system is a relatively minor system of the car and many cars don't even have one. Changing how the charging system works is kinda minor. On the other hand, the 'unique' ignition system, transmission, and lack of pumps of any kind, are what set the T aside from other antique cars. Yeah, I know those features aren't really 'unique', but surely you know what I mean.

All,

I have no problem with what someone does to their car. I don't normally get into these discussions until someone badmouths the original system or offers other information I feel is misleading. Pretending the E-Timer still operates in the original fashion and is just a different kind of triggering device is misleading. I can accept that reasoning when comparing it to the T running on battery, but not on mag.

I won't argue that you can achieve slightly more power with the E-Timer. It's not night and day, but it is there. My tests and the dyno tests posted by Mike both support this. The dyno tests show the difference to be most noticeable at higher rpms. My tests also support this in a roundabout way, as the difference was more noticeable in my TT than in my wife's Touring. My TT tests involved revving to higher rpms (0-25 mph with 7.25:1 rear) than the Touring tests (0-35 mph, with 3.64 or whatever stock is). I feel this is why I saw a greater power increase in the truck than in the car. I did not notice any smoother running, but like I said above I don't have any rough running to start with.

My gut feel is that if you have a good running T and buy the E-Timer expecting a night and day difference in performance, you may be disappointed. If you have a good running T and feel you need an extra hp or two at really high rpms, then you may well be pleased with an E-Timer. If you have a T that runs a little rough due to coils out of adjustment and/or the timer is not centered, then you will probably see a difference with the E-Timer. If you don't understand how to advance and retard the spark properly or are too lazy to do so, you will probably LOVE the E-Timer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Dimit - North Cental foc on Monday, August 06, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

I find this thread is much more enlightening on the subject of E-go than it is on E-timers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 12:10 am:

Hal penned, "To me, the difference is that the charging system is a relatively minor system of the car and many cars don't even have one. Changing how the charging system works is kinda minor."

You won't think the charging system is minor when the third brush is set to 6A or greater, and the battery explodes.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 01:01 am:

Perhaps the makings of a hybred T that can run on Hydrogen.
Would give a new meaning to "Running on Battery" <@^@>.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 03:11 am:

There used to be a T pickup in the San Diego Aerospace Museum that had been converted run on H2.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 11:37 am:

Royce, Hal & Bernard...... do your opinions really count here ?
Feedback means that you have tested/tried something and you offer your results of your experience.
E-Timer Feedback. That's the title of this thread.
Your negativity without experiencing has been documented here.

Bob Jablonski

Bob,

bottom line is, if you are asking Model T folks what it's like to install an E-timer in their antique cars, it's like discussing on another public board what it's like for an old geezer to have a 16 year-old girlfriend.

I can't and won't speak for others, but I am simply pointing out that it doesn't matter how good it may or may not feel, as it's morally wrong for us 80 to 100 year-olds to pursue such a relationship. I understand that you will perceive that as being negative, the same way that old geezer who just kissed that sweet 15-year-old won't appreciate it if others told him that what he does is wrong, no matter how good it feels.

Part of our hobby is the preservation of Model Ts, and tampering with one of the key components of it doesn't count as preservation. While I applaud the incredible genius of the E-Timer's design, I will point out that there is simply no viable market for it. It's like an airbag for a Model T, hidden behind the dash. Genius, but only a very small group of people will want it in their Model T, whereas a much larger group appreciates an airbag in their modern car.

But I will stay out of this discussion now, as we have beaten the dead cow enough already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

James Dimit,

I wish I had said that ;>)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 02:41 pm:

Bernard, It is kind late to bow out after you already told everyone that uses an E timer it was like they were molesting a child. I think the original post was not asking all model t folks if they liked etimers but asking the ones that had used them if they had good or bad results. I wish those that dont like them would quit hijacking the intent of the original post. There evidently is a market for them or the ones that dont use them would not feel threatened by those who wish to improve their car. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By don ellis on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 02:52 pm:

I have one on my 11 and love it. I also have an Anderson on the 27, I like it too. Am I blackballed now?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 03:48 pm:

Hmmmmm Michael, Wonder if I fall into the child molesting trap by having calipers that have the Honda logo? I could grind it off but they work so good!!

Bernard has stated they are wrong even though they have saved my fanny and folks with me several times! Lets see--- the Honda H would make an F, O is there, n could be an r and the D is there.

Hope to post Edisons and hopefully Henry's cure for a used up stock coil system. I know the mag is Edison but doubt he built the drive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

Bernatrd:

Enough of your etherial delusions, there are a few who are questioning YOUR MORALS.


Feedback means that you have tested/tried something and you offer your results of your experience.
E-Timer Feedback. That's the title of this thread.
Your negativity without experiencing has been documented here.



Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 12:34 am:

HI Paul, LOL I have been in that trap since I become a model t owner. My one t has that forbidden pan truss besides a truefire ignition. Have lots of fun with my Ts tho and drive them daily. And no one can spoil that for me!!!!!!!! Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:12 am:

The cars that usually break down the most often on tours, are the ones that have been changed from stock. So, why change?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

E-Gad comes in a close second behind E-Go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

They must be good, this post is still running
( about 6 months )and hasn't skipped a beat.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

I don't have a dog in this fight but I imagine the E-timer works very well with more precise timing and likely better engine performance. I've had 2 $500 GPS units for hunting that each worked about 4 years of light duty, total time "on" of under 10 hours each that quit working and couldn't fine a satelite. After the second quit, I swore I wouldn't spend that money on another and I use a map and compass instead. My 90 year old mother's computer sensor on her 92 Grand Am drive shaft started leaving her stranded in traffic after she made right turns. The main system diagnostics wouldn't tell what was wrong. Our 5 year old JenAir oven display got dimmer and dimmer and needed replacing. it was a 75 cent capacitor that couldn't stand the heat. Most folks cough up the $300 for a new circuit board but I replaced the capacitor. I'm on my 4th Palm PDA in 10 years. I'm not sold on circuit boards and computerized accessories lasting more than 5 years. Maybe these can stand the heat and vibration and will last longer. I hope so. The stock magneto, timer, and coils have lasted 80 years. The coils do need new points and new capacitors every 50 years or so. I'll let my grandkids change them.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:20 am:

It depends on the quality of the circuit board. There are plenty of 40 year old radios and other avionics with pc boards flying in jets a dozen hours a day, still working as new.

I bought two Garmin Nuvi 650 in 2007, and both are still riding around in the cars, working like always.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:41 am:

Noel, Sounds like your another one that needs coils and a timer and 80 year old air in your tires. Dout many Ts have original equipment and darn sure very few coils and timers made it 50 years. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:47 am:

Since the inclusion of a clock chip in most electronic devices today items will fail when the clock hits a predetermined length of time. Check the circuit board for a small battery and momentarily remove it to reset the clock. My mobile phone, washing machine, microwave oven and a TV have all been "RESET" this way and perform as designed after this procedure. People are now accepting that once an item is more than a few years old and breaks down, the fix is to throw it away and start again. Just look at any piece of equipment that was built prior to electronic control, just had switches and mechanical relays, and see that they lasted for many years and could be repaired easily and cheaply by replacing the damaged part, and not the whole machine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:47 am:

I tend to agree with that issue Noel it ticks me off when a one year old appliance has a hiccup that costs half the price of the appliance.
It just seems like Japan has it together on quality parts. I remember when Japan made crap and you bought American for quality. Now its China for the most part with crap, smart folks though in a few years they will be like Japan.
I keep a backup for most of my stuff bought at garage sales for one tenth the normal cost. Problem is its not like the cost of backup T parts.
My Toyota with coil on plug design went 140K on the original plugs with a ton of electric magic under the hot hood problem free and its still going.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 12:57 am:

Noel is exacty right and hit the nail on the head.

its the same reason im partial to using points in my more modern cars rather than electronic solid state ignitions.

if one fails, your stuck. there is no limping home, there is no fixing on the side of the road, you have to replace the whole component.

its really not even a question of originality for me, the original timer has 4 contacts and a roller. the E timer problably has over 1000 internal components to go wrong, try diagnosing that on a back highway at night. no thanks, and if i pulled over to help i would simply tell you to call a tow truck.

how many of you have had to replace alternators on your cars because the diodes burned out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:24 am:

I recently replaced the original alternator in the '97 E-350 with 190K miles, because the (mechanical) brushes wore clean through the slip rings. All the electronics were still intact. A PickUrPart replacement alt was less than $50.

"..the E timer problably has over 1000 internal components to go wrong..."

Like Uncle Stan say, "The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats." You have obviously never seen one up close. Look at the pic above.

AGAIN: if an E-timer should ever hiccup, you just put on an old claptrap timer and remove the jumpers from the coils, and drive on, jerkily.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:28 am:

Dont know about that one Matthew, after buying a rebuilt Toy alternator from NAPA that lasted one day I returned and put new brushes in the old one with 235K as far as I know its still going. Quality is the key.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 06:38 am:

Ralph you are lying about any "jerky" operation of the original system. Unless something is broken it operates flawlessly and is utterly reliable, cheap to repair, and simple to operate. You sir are full of poo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 07:30 am:

I didn't make the news, just reporting it: It's the title of an article from the era in one of the Model T Speedster books, "Ford Steady by Jerks Ignition." Maybe it has something to do with the timing jumps governed by the magneto?

"Unless something is broken it operates flawlessly and is utterly reliable." Something breaks a lot then, judging by the number of timer threads and coils threads on this Forum.

Cheap to repair? Other than clean the kevlar lint from under the contact, what part of the magneto is cheap to repair?

Simple to operate? Misters Regan and Patterson have had to write long articles explaining the Ford system. A disturbutor with a single coil instead of four buzz coil mechanisms is simple to operate. The E-Timer is simple to operate, too.

What changed between 1927 and 1928? Did Atwater-Kent patents expire?

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matthew David Maiers on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 10:29 am:

jerky,????? breaking all the time? claptrap? these sound like complaints from sombody who doesnt want to maintain a model T properly.

"AGAIN: if an E-timer should ever hiccup, you just put on an old claptrap timer and remove the jumpers from the coils, and drive on, jerkily."

or you could figure out how to make the original work and never have to put it on the e-timer and spend the $400 on something that needs to be fixed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 10:54 am:

The people we are speaking of here don't even have a clue to what a real Model T is!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 11:12 am:

A real Model T is a study in avoiding patent royalties by using systems that are in the public domain, or if the patent holding company is small enough, infringing. The planetary transmission is a case in point.

Ford patented the low tension magneto in the T. Did anybody else use one similar?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:00 pm:

I guess I'm going to look for a Stanley Steamer with a defective boiler and install a semi-modern gas engine with distributor and module. Why fuss with all that unusual steam stuff when a Pinto engine and auto trans are easily installed -- cheaper -- and the car is every bit as fast and easier to work on as well? This is your argument? Why wasting time on making the car work as designed when electronic components are available that make this unnecessary? So one day we will have Model Ts in museums and they will have an E-Timer or Truefire and the curator will explain to the visitor's that the original system worked only for close to a century at which time the Model T owners switched to electronics, turn signals, LED lights, seat belts and disk brakes?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:05 pm:

Ford might have patented the low tension magneto but they didn't really invent it. Do a patent search sometime and you'll find very similar devices which predate the Model T. You might say Ford patented a perfected version. (Sorry for drifting off topic by not printing something offensive or calling names.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDonald-Federal Way, Wa. on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 01:29 pm:

This horse should be dead, it hasen't moved in 6 months and its legs are pointing up with no wires attached, what do you think. I still like the T hobby. I have skies on couple of mine and Henry didn't make them.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 05:16 pm:

Guys, In many ways I'm so sorry I started this thread and should have known better.

Unfortunately we got only a very few actually feedback reports so I hope we can all move on to another less controversial topic like brakes or oil and beat that to death again.

Gene in HB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Seager on Thursday, August 09, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

Gene, this has been repeated over and over. I ask early on about if a truefire worked ok never did really get an answer. Only got lot of BS about why you shouldnt run one which had nothing to do with the original question. Thank god lots of us have open minds. Wish you could have got more feedback. Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 06:34 am:

Gene, don't be sorry about starting this thread. With any venture, there will be pros & cons with truthful experiences, then you will have the comments based on non-experienced & etherial ideas.

I will continue to enjoy my E-Timer.

Keep in mind that the E-Timer's resulting performance is a result of software programming tested tried & true by many beta-testers before the E-Timer was released for public sale. Software updates resulted from dynamometer testing by members of both MTFCA and Model T International..... kudos for your interest !!

I am proud to be a part of the beta-testing group and commend Mike Kossor bringing his project to fruition.



Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, August 10, 2012 - 05:12 pm:

PS... I'm Really Not Sorry but also find it hard to read all the BS when I know many others including myself LOVE their E Timer...

Enough Said


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Murphy on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 02:51 pm:

I have an E-Timer installed on my car. However, I do not own it. It is a loaner that was given to me for review just this past week so my feedback is very limited. I actually found this thread while trying to get ideas about what to look for while making observations.

Let me be clear up front that I have been somewhat conflicted about the virtue of such a device and where I should draw the line with respect to ďmodernĒ devices. With that in mind, I would like to know all of the good and bad point (not opinions) before making a decision.

Here are some of my initial observations, in no particular order. Note: the car runs on 12V with no magnetos (I knowÖ. I knowÖ.a future fix is planned) and has been sitting for the past month. I just did a quick tune up before testing the car with and without the E-Timer. The weather has been very cold and so far, I have only had an hour or so worth of time on the device to generated the following comments. Some of the results are open to interpretation:
1. The entire circuit board is epoxy coated and fits inside an original Ford Script timer body. There is a terminal block for downloading information to a computer which appears to be the only exposed part. I do not have the cable for downloading the information, but I understand it is an interesting readout of how the car is performing.
2. With the car already tuned up, the initial installation took less than 30 minutes. You have to make sure the timing is set right so most of the time involved adjusting the timing rod. Switching back should only take 10-15 minutes.
3. To make it faster to switch back and forth, I decided to use a separate timing rod. This will be set up and ready to go if/when I make the purchase. It will also make it quicker if I need to swap it for a Ford timer in the future. Since I have two vehicles, I plan to use swap the E-Timer between the two, as desired. It is possible that I will find the minor adjustments I made to set up the E-Timer to be good enough for the Ford timer, but I havenít gotten that far yet.
4. The car started quicker than normal.
5. After starting, the engine has to turn a set number of revolutions before the automatic timing takes over (if turned on). When this occurs, there is a dramatic change in how the engine runs. It suddenly gets much smoother.
6. I could not measure the acceleration, but it was noticeably improved.
7. The top end is 2-3 mph faster than I have seen in years (using GPS).
8. In auto timing mode, you must keep yourself from retarding the timing, especially when coming to a stop (leave the lever all the way down). If you raise the lever, the car will stall. The reason for this appears to be that you are manually retarding the timing and adding it to what the auto timing has already done. The first time this happened, it really worried me because the engine stopped and I didnít know why. After that, I caught myself when I heard it starting to stall and soon learned to keep my hands off the lever. Before the weather gets too bad, I hope to get a chance to try the ďmanualĒ mode, where you are in complete control of the timing.
9. Sometimes during normal driving it feels like the timing is retarded further than what I would normally be running. It may simply be that I run with too much advance. I have the choice to either get used to this, or switch to manual timing mode. Either way, as stated above, this is not the case during acceleration or top speed.
10. I do have honest concerns about the longevity of this device as well as a possible future price drop, if it really takes off. On the other hand, I have spent a lot of money on things in the past which didnít last or quickly became obsolete so I at least know what the capabilities of this device are after having the rare opportunity to test drive it. I can imagine being very disappointed down the road if there are only 100 made and I miss out.

I started reading this thread, based on the well intentioned title, to learn something about the E-Timer device. However, it was an utter waste of time because virtually no one had the common courtesy to honor the request to limit their responses to feedback (or at least questions about the feedback). This is an unfortunate disservice to the entire community who may wish to go through life making their own decisions. I find it disturbing when people put someone down because they donít spend more time learning how to fix their cars, but then waste everyoneís time with such interruptions to drag out a simple question. Iím not against the debate about where to draw the line between original versus upgrades, but you should have started a new thread.

I hope someone can find this post of value. If it appears that anyone is still reading this thread, and responding with anything of value, I hope to post more results after the test period is over.

Regards,
Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

Then of course there were those who lambasted others who HAD given it a try but were still not convinced it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

When you post your results, I would recommend starting a new thread, as this one is already pretty long and given it's negative nature, would probably turn off a lot of folks before they got down to where your new information was posted.

When I tested the E-Timer, I did 0-35 mph timed tests or something similar to test the power. Since I had no dyno, I figured accelerating a mass and dividing by time was the next best thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

Steve:

You mentioned the feeling of not getting enough timing advance with the E-Timer....

Re-check the total movement of the timer, as it must have a certain amount of movement at full advance ( spark lever at full advance ) on the Automatic Timing mode.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, December 14, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

Steve,
Good report.

In your #9 comment, "Sometimes during normal driving it feels like the timing is retarded further than what I would normally be running. It may simply be that I run with too much advance." You pointed out the problem of having the advance controlled by the engine speed only without regard to how hard the engine is working. A better way to control the timing would be to include a vacuum advance as well as the speed advance. Maybe that will come with newer versions. In the meantime, a smart driver should be able to out preform the automatic advance with the manual advance because he/she will know how hard the engine is working and can adjust the timing as needed.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:38 am:

Steve:

I also thank you for your observations.

Feedback would indicate some form of actual experience.

I don't know where the misinformation originated about T guys not knowing how to make their engines run on the original ignition system, relying on other systems to "fix" their problem....... all I can say from my experience the E-Timer has been reliable since November of 2010 and that I was one of the original Beta-Testers.... and have purchased the E-Timer.

I do have the know-how and tools to properly re-build the Ford ignition coil, and I do appreciate the standard system, as well as the E-Timer.

Only last month, I switched back to the original system, just to be reacquainted. The E-Timer is now back on the engine. Guess I'm spoiled with it's attributes and performance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 09:53 am:

Seems to me that running the E-timer in manual mode will let the operator be his/her own vacuum advance by adjusting according to how hard the engine is working.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 10:47 am:

Steve's comment #4 tells us that Steve's car did not run properly in the first place. A Model T will start with one or two upward pulls on the crank. If it doesn't then you have some basic tune up problem, or poor starting technique. The E timer is just an electronic timer, and a frightfully expensive one at $450 plus shipping.

The E timer website makes no mention of ever trying an original Ford timer. All of the testing is compared to the Anderson timer or other inferior types.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Schultz_Sheboygan,WI on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 11:52 am:

I was not frightened when I ordered my E-Timer and it didn't cost 450.00 plus shipping.

I installed it on a perfectly running 6volt coils and magneto car and it made it run noticeably better. I currently have the E-Timer installed on a 12volt non magneto car and the difference in performance there is also increased.

I am very pleased with the E-Timer, it appears to be a good product and Mike has been very pleasant to deal with. I don't know why all of the bashing that is going on has to take place. If you're scared of it don't buy one. There are a lot of other things that can go wrong with a model t that will let you on the side of the road long before the E-Timer will.

Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

Dan,

How much did it cost then? $500?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:14 pm:

Priority Mail is less than $5. Why do you even mention it, Royce? There's something deeper going on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:16 pm:

Roar:

Manual mode on E-Timer is fully operator adjustable to suit speed/road/elevation needs .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

Ralph,

I mention the price because the price is extraordinarily high for something that does nothing to enhance T ownership from my perspective, and in my opinion.

The list price is $450, so if Dan has found a different price somewhere it would be helpful so that in the future I could accurately state the going rate.

By comparison, you can buy a good serviceable Ford roller timer for about a dollar, sometimes as much as ten dollars, but certainly the E timer is exponentially more expensive. Shipping should be about the same, so I don't see any reason to state the price of shipping.

When buying timer rollers, look for the Ford script.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 12:30 pm:

Oh, Royce, I admire your altruism in advising others to save their money and buy Ford Timers.

If enough Ts were converted to E-Timers, the Ford timers would be cheaper for you to buy...

Or do you have stock in oil companies, and want people to waste gas with stock timers that don't get as good gas mileage?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Mullis on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

My 16 stem winder runs beautifully with the original ignition system. Starts easily on magneto. I will ALWAYS run a stock ignition system.
I must confess that my T isn't really original. It's bored 40 over with aluminum pistons and (say it isn't so Mable) Chevrolet valves.
Most people on here don't have a problem with the mods I've done to my Liz.


Now for my 2 cents.
I believe that a T should be as bone stock as possible. However, I see no problem with running an etimer if your mag ain't maggin' or if you are a beginner and not up to snuff on setting up the ignition system.
You'll enjoy the satisfaction of setting up the original ignition but I'm not going to kick you if you install a e-timer and take the car out for a spin until you amass the skill set you'll need.

I intend to buy an e-timer to play with. It might be a good insurance policy to keep one under the seat "just in case".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 03:01 pm:

The E-timer website lists it at $399.95


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Murphy on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 04:34 pm:

Thanks for all of the comments.

Iím pretty sure the E-Timer is adjusted correctly on my car. After another hour on the road, Iím not getting the same sensation of not enough timing advance. If no other owners feel this way, it might have just been in my head.

I have still not run the E-Timer in ďManualĒ mode. In automatic, I am seeing a definite improvement in overall performance. If this is because I am a bad driver or just that I donít know how to set up my car, it definitely is making up for at least some of it. This is not to say that these issues could not be fixed without an E-Timer, but it is definitely an easy step in the right direction.

As for the improved starting and smoother running, this is definitely due to the E-Timer being better than my one year old timer. My previous reference to the ďFord timer was just a generic comment (as opposed to the E-Timer). In reality, I was actually running an Anderson timer that has some issues.

Prior to installing the E-Timer, I verified that the camshaft was centered and then checked the timing. I found that, will full retarded timing, the #1 and #4 cylinders were starting to fire just after top dead center, but not at the exact same height (I did not check 1 & 3). I agree that a better timer should fix this, but at $65 a pop, it starts to get expensive to play trial and error. I have never seen a $1 Ford timer so I really canít comment on that. If the E-Timer does nothing more than balancing out the cylinders, it serves a useful purpose for me. Itís certainly got to take some strain off of the engine to have it balanced. Whether itís worth the money is a personal decision.

FYI: The E-Timer currently runs 399.99 with a $25 core charge on a Ford Script timer body.

Regards,
Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 04:37 pm:

Looks like $424.95 if you want to buy a timer without a core. The price you are quoting is for converting a timer. At least that is what I see here:
http://shop.modeltetimer.com/E-Timer-Conversion-Kit-without-Ford-Script-Timer-Co re-V12FW13noCore.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Murphy on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 04:41 pm:

Thanks for all of the comments.

Iím pretty sure the E-Timer is adjusted correctly on my car. After another hour on the road, Iím not getting the same sensation of not enough timing advance. If no other owners feel this way, it might have just been in my head.

I have still not run the E-Timer in ďManualĒ mode. In automatic, I am seeing a definite improvement in overall performance. If this is because I am a bad driver or just that I donít know how to set up my car, it definitely is making up for at least some of it. This is not to say that these issues could not be fixed without an E-Timer, but it is definitely an easy step in the right direction.

As for the improved starting and smoother running, this is definitely due to the E-Timer being better than my one year old timer. My previous reference to the ďFord timer was just a generic comment (as opposed to the E-Timer). In reality, I was actually running an Anderson timer that has some issues.

Prior to installing the E-Timer, I verified that the camshaft was centered and then checked the timing. I found that, will full retarded timing, the #1 and #4 cylinders were starting to fire just after top dead center, but not at the exact same height (I did not check 1 & 3). I agree that a better timer should fix this, but at $65 a pop, it starts to get expensive to play trial and error. I have never seen a $1 Ford timer so I really canít comment on that. If the E-Timer does nothing more than balancing out the cylinders, it serves a useful purpose for me. Itís certainly got to take some strain off of the engine to have it balanced. Whether itís worth the money is a personal decision.

FYI: The E-Timer currently runs 399.99 with a $25 core charge on a Ford Script timer body.

Regards,
Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 04:41 pm:

Wow Royce, you CAN read !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 05:04 pm:

But you see only what you want to see....

http://shop.modeltetimer.com/main.sc

Simplified order page.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

I have been interested to watch and read about the project Mike created. I am now so tired of the bashing related to this item, I am sure I will never use one. If I look at this forum as an outsider who has just purchased a T, I would run for the hills from the sarcasm and personal degrading that goes on now. I am embarrased to tell anyone that I meet about this site. I know many others who have felt the same way. I wish many of you could grow up and at least be civil in your disagreements. Remember, this is supposed to be for the FAMILIES of ALL Model Ters not just you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 07:16 pm:

That is the problem with the internet, it allows you to share your opinion with almost no consequence, where if you tried the same thing in a crowded room the body language and dirty looks would convince you what you just said made your look like a complete idiot. It also allows those of us who have no social skills, to falsely think we are a part of a group, when in fact, if we met in person, you wouldn't last 5 minutes before you were thrown out of the room.

So, go ahead, blast away, I am smart enough to figure out who really has something to say, and who just needs a few, fleeting minutes of fame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Magedanz on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 07:51 pm:

Thank you, Michael; I agree. It is clear who has something to contribute and who doesn't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Bob Jablonsky,
Seems you have a lot of miles behind you with the E-timer, so I was curious if you have tried it in the manual mode, and if so, did you find any advantage over the automatic mode? Anybody else tried a comparison of modes?
Thanks!
roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

I was able to get better performance in manual mode than on automatic, albeit only marginally better.

Disclaimer for Bob Jablonski and those of his ilk: The above statement WAS made by one who has tried an E-Timer and was NOT negative.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 08:58 pm:

It's high time for the name calling to stop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 11:09 pm:

Roar:

Yes, I have driven on the Manual Mode a few times. Just like the standard Ford ignition, you have to find the best spark lever position for the engine speed and road conditions, and like any Model T each engine seems to have it's own quirks.... probably due to valve timing, lift or condition.

And, Yes, you can get spoiled driving in the Automatic Mode. I find myself retarding the throttle on a stretch of road , even leaning the mixture on occasion, and that, I believe, is where I was able to get the better MPG over the standard ignition on our '26 Runabout.

Estimated driven miles with the E-Timer.... around 4K since November 2010. This past week I drove about 200 miles, left the car out in frosty 26 degree night and it started up on the first try in the morning.

I found Steve Murphy's comments refreshing, as coming from a T guy who was willing to have an open mind to try the E-Timer and be open to post his findings, good or bad.

Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Mullis on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 12:08 am:

My pick for a conventional timer is the "New Day" with a reproduction brush ($8). Very little maintenance required. The timers (used) show up on tbay quiet often for $25 and below
The only issue I have had with a "ND" is I needed to install a stronger spring in the brush after about 1000 miles ($1).
Usually just wipe it out every 500 - 1000 miles and you're good to go. Traces of bronze does accumulate over time in the case on the brush's path. Brasso cleans said traces off easily.

Andersons? Bought one that evidently wasn't set up correctly.
I'll revisit Anderson timers later.

Roller timers??? I'm just too lazy to oil a timer all the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 07:19 pm:

Thanks, Bob!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 10:18 am:

Michael:

The New Day works for you and that's OK.

The Ford timer was set with a metal guage so the pull rod could be adjusted easily.

Not so with other non-Ford timers.

Some have instructions included.

Generally if #1 piston is positioned just after top dead center on compression stroke,disconnect spark pull rod, a timer is rotated so that #1 coil just starts to "buzz", spark lever fully up.... adjust rod length to new timer position & cotter.

Don't give up on the Anderson. If you have any doubts, the new manufacturer of the Anderson style timer will be more than happy to calibrate yours.

Bob J.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph W. Rudzik on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Royce,
You can run a T off the mag with a distributor, it is illustrated in "The Model T Ford Owner."
You tie down three coils and use one as a master vibrator and and change the points to close for ignition rather than break as they do for normal battery operation.

Joe R.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, December 17, 2012 - 06:56 pm:

Joseph,

I don't think I want to do that either. Distributors are also very expensive, and require more maintenance than the original Ford system.

I sold my Atwater Kent distributor from my '13 for $100 (stripped bevel gears). Then Constantine drove the car halfway around the world on "MAG" with the Anco timer. If Constantine had relied on a battery or distributor for ignition he would not have made it.


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