Bottom Line up Front: Some of our Model T owners in Argentina are looking for information and recommendations concerning where to purchase tires for their 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided split rim equipped cars [be sure to notice they are NOT clincher rims]. If you have some recommendations or if you see anything we missed – and need to mention to them – please let us/them know.

+++++++++++++++++++

Longer Version:

Everyday there is something new to discover about our Model T Fords. In this case Bailey Rettig who lives here in the USA but is also a member of the Primer Club del Ford T de Argentina sent me the following comments and questions:

+++++++ From Bailey ++++++++++++

I've been following the discussion of demountable on the forum, but can't seem to find information on split rims for 30 X 3 1/2 tires. Can you help?

I belong to the Model T club in Argentina. The guys down there asked me to give them the name of the supplier of 30 X 3 1/2 tires for split rims. I wrote them back saying I didn't think there was any such thing as a split rim for a 30 X 3 1/2.

Wonders never cease. They sent me the picture below. It never occurred to me that there would be split rims for 30 X 3 1/2 and so I didn't even notice the rims the last time I was there.

Have you ever seen anything like this before?

From the limited research I've done I get the impression that split rims for a 30 X 3 1/2 tire would be very dangerous at 55 lbs.




+++++++++++++ End of Bailey’s e-mail ++++++++++++

I did some looking and at the time I found a posting on our MTFCA forum that took me to some additional photos of some of the Model T’s in Argentina. But as I looked at the photos because of the angle, lighting, and size/resolution I never could verify to my satisfaction if the photo of the rim that Bailey sent was straight sides or clincher or 30 x 3 1/2 or some other size. I would look at photos and depending on where I looked at them I could see very little or I could convince my self of several different options. And since there was only one wheel/rim the single rim could not be several different styles/sizes. Some of the photos I looked at are shown below:








I was hoping to be able to confirm from the photos of the spare rims if they were clincher or straight sided. But I was never fully convinced one way or the other.

++++++++++++++++++++++ I replied back to Bailey +++++++++++

1. To my knowledge Ford USA or Ford Canada never supplied a split rim 30 x 3 1/2 inch demountable wheel and rim. [added for the posting: I think that is probably still true – but perhaps the rims used in Argentina were supplied by Ford USA? If anyone has additional information on that please let us know.]

2. During the 1980s at least one company produced a 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher rim that was split to make it easier to mount the clincher tires. That wasn’t a bad idea – but it was not continued and to my knowledge no one currently is making the 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher available with the split rim option. [ added for the posting: If someone would send me a link to photos or illustration of that reproduction 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher with the split – I would like to add it to my files for future use. Also if anyone knows if they worked well or poorly – please let us know that also. I would guess they made mounting the clincher easier but they would tend to be more easily distored than the solid rim clincher. ]

3. In the 1925 Firestone catalog, Firestone offered an accessory wheel to fit a Model T Ford. The owner would have his original hubs pressed into the Firestone wheels. Those Firestone wheels could fit either the 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher rim and clincher tire or a straight sided rim and tire. It had loose / removable lugs. Illustration from the 1925 Firestone catalog is attached. The straight sided rim would have to have a split in order to get the tire onto the rim.





4. From the photo it is difficult for me to tell if the rim is a clincher rim or a straight sided rim. Do you know which it is?



5. From the photo it is difficult for me to tell if the lugs on the rim are fixed or removable. Do you know which it is?

6. From the photo I believe the wheels are the 30 x 3 1/2 but please have the owner confirm that they are the 1919-1926 size 30 x 3 1/2 wheels and NOT the 1925-1927 21 inch balloon tire wheels.

7. And was that single 1926 touring fitted with that same style rim on all four wheels and also the same rim for the spare tires?

8. Do any of the other Model Ts there have the same wheels and rims?

9. Do they know if the wheels and rims came on the car originally?

10. Was the car assembled in Argentina and if not do they know which country it was assembled in?

11. See also:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/233743.html?1315272382

12: I forgot to say -- the rims that are very dangerous which are also called split rims are the ones usually found on trucks (not Model T cars). And the rim is not cut across the rim but rather goes around the entire circle of the tire. It actually has two or three pieces depending on how it is constructed. The large part of the rim. The outside flange and in some cases a removable ring that holds the flange onto the larger part of the rim. Those are extremely dangerous when they are being inflated because if they are NOT properly seated the outer flange/ring flies off at high speed and often injures or kills the person inflating the tire. See: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/220620.html for a photo of a SUV style one from the web site at
http://www.4wdonline.com/Wheels/Split.html I would NOT fool with those.

One other comment on the Model T car style split rims from
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/177518.html

By Hal Davis - Lyons, GA on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 01:02 pm:
Although not as dangerous as the 2 and 3 piece rims that need to be inflated in a cage or with chains wrapped around them, the 21" Model T and 23" Model TT split rims can be dangerous. Someone posted a picture here a while back that showed one that the latch had failed while inflating. Looked like a pretzel. They were recommending the tire/rim assembly be mounted on the wheel before inflating.


++++++++++++++++++++End of my reply back to Bailey+++++++++

Then Daniel E. Bollo a member of the Primer Club del Ford T de Argentina; Primer Club Uruguayo del Ford T; and Club Ford T y A de España along with Bailey Rettig provided some additional photos and information clarifying that the rims were in fact straight sided 30 x 3 1/2 split rims and that they were quite common in Argentina and Uruguay. He send a photo of one of the 21 inch split rim that was posted on the forum before to illustrate it was a straight sided and NOT a clincher rim. His photos are shown below and note the cracking on the relatively new tires. That is the major reason for their questions – they would like to find a source for better quality longer lasting tires for their 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided split rim demountable equipped Model T Fords.










+++++++++++++ End of Daniel E. Bollo’s e-mail ++++++++++++++++++++

I responded back that I believed those 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided tires were probably available and that the Cooker Tire probably had some. [They have some Excelsior Straight Sided ones listed at: See: http://www.cokertire.com/30x3-1-2-ss-excelsior-ss-wired-on-blk.html . The photo appears to be of a 19 inch 1930-31 Model A Ford aftermarket wheel (appears to have adjustable spokes rather than welded spokes) and tire – but it was for illustration purposes).]

++++++++++++Daniel E. Bollo’s next e-mail +++++++++++++++

And Daniel responded that he found the same Excelsior Straight Sided tire at: Performance Plus (they have a retail outlet at Long Beach, CA see: http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/otherTires/subSection/antiqueTires/searchType/searchBySize/sizeShort/30-3%201_SLASH_2/productID/11923/antiqueTireDataID/3575

He also received a reply back from Dale at Lucas [http://www.lucasclassictires.com ] who responded that the 31 x 4 size Lucas straight sided tire would work.

++++++++++++++++End Daniel E. Bollo’s e-mail ++++++++++++

+++++++++++And then Bailey responded in his next e-mail +++++++

As you can see by the photos of the tire where the tread is separating, the quality of NEW TIRES in Argentina is extremely bad. I was in Argetina on a tour last December and saw the tires my self. I warned the folks THE TIRES ARE DANGEROUS - VERY DANGEROUS especially when the tires are mounted on the front axel.

LUCAS recommended 31 X 4. Could this be a good alternative??

+++++++++++ end Bailey’s e-mail +++++++++++++

Looking in the Coker Tire catalog they have a nice table that shows the 31 x 4 is a 23 inch rim diameter which is the same rim size as the 30 x 3 1/2 clinchers. They have some Goodrich Silvertown Cords that are straight sided high pressure tires and their 31 x 4 is listed as load rated for 1000 pounds at 60 PSI. They do not list any PSI for the Excelsior Straight Sided 30 x 3 1/2 tire but they did list it as 76M which is also the same load rating applied to their 30 x 3 1/2 clincher tire.

And Universal Tire also the high pressure 31 x 4 straight sided tires see: https://www.universaltire.com/universal-tires/high-pressure-straight-sided.html

I also looked in the Dykes Automobile Encyclopedia (on line versions are available for free from Google Books. The 1911 2nd edition was not that helpful on this subject see: http://books.google.com/books?id=kaQMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dykes+Automobile+Encyclopedia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CX4tT921JMzLtgeX18zYDw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dykes%20Automobile%20Encyclopedia&f=false

The 12th Edition had more information on tires and rims but – did not list a 31 x 4 Straight Sided rim or a 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided that I could find. http://books.google.com/books?id=BtYbqYNbg0QC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Dykes+Automobile+Encyclopedia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CX4tT921JMzLtgeX18zYDw&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Dykes%20Automobile%20Encyclopedia&f=false

I believe that answers to the following questions may help our Model T owners in Argentina obtain the correct tires (also tubes and flaps).

Does anyone have a 30 x 3 1/2 Straight Sided Demountable rim from Argentina etc. that they could do some measurements on?

Does anyone have one of those Firestone wheels that could take either the four fixed lug Clincher Rim or the four fixed lug Straight Sided Demountable rim? I would guess (but we need evidence to confirm or correct the guess) that it is similar to the Straight Sided 30 x 3 1/2 demountable rims used in Argentina.

Does anyone have any experience with the Straight Sided tires vs the Clinchers as far as durability etc.?

As always additional information is always welcome.

Not needed to solve the initial question – but I would like to know if anyone knows who manufactured the Straight Sided 30 x 3 1/2 inch rims that are common in Argentina etc. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980 several old cars were exported from Argentina etc. to the USA (I remember a lot of 1928-31 Model As and I would assume some Ts were exported also). Does anyone have one of those and if so do they have those Straight Sided rims or did they have them when they were imported to the USA?

Finally a reminder – you do NOT need to be a member of the Model T Ford Club of America to post on the forum. I thought you could post without registering – but when I just tried it – that did not work. But anyone interested in Model T Fords should be able to register by going to the link at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=register and filling in the information. Be sure to write down your user name and password or whatever method you use to be able to recall it a week or so later -- so you don’t inadvertently get lock out.

Hopefully some of you who understand the tire sizes and rims will be able to provide clarification and recommendations.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Hap, I think there's a lot of confusion over the term split rim because folks use it for two different things. Rims like the ones used on the Argentine car in the first picture really are split, and I call them split rims. The rims on my TT truck wheels are not split, but they have a split snap ring. I call those, the dangerous ones, snap ring rims. I suppose getting everybody to use these different terms is a lost cause, but at least I use them myself.

I have several 30 x 3 1/2 straight sided, split rims for T's,

Seems to me the best bet is to sell our extra clincher rims to the guys in Argentina so we can all use the same low cost clincher tires.

Hap,
I have 5 straight sided 30x3 1/2 on split rims. They are "PUMA" brand made in Uraguay. I bought them from an individual, so, I don't know a retail source, just a manufacture country, and that could have been many years ago.

As far as I know, none of the major antique auto tire makers are currently making a 30X3.5 SS (straight side) tire these days. Not to worry, just buy a 31X4 SS tire (the rim size is the same). They are still offered. Availability changes day to day.
Many other makes of cars used 30X3.5 SS tires. Notably, Chevrolet (I had a pair of wheels with rims many years ago, sold them years ago) and Star. My son has a set of steel disc wheels that use 30X3.5 SS tires. He already has his 31X4 tires.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

I think Aaron has the best idea - to sell/send some clincher rims to the guys in Argentina. Unfortunately there is a major problem in getting anything into the country. I usually take loads of small parts because Argentine Customs Officials are kind to Gringos bringing non-commercial quantities of used (and some new) parts.

The guys down there epitomize the saying "We have done so much with so little for so long, we can do anything with nothing".

Its fun down there. You guys should come on down and visit.

Wayne from what you have shared and what the tire dealers are saying the 31 x 4 SS tires should work for them.

Aaron -- I wondered if it would be cost effective / worthwhile for them to convert from the straight sided (SS) to the Clincher (CL) style also. For the Excelsior Tires their straight sided and clincher style 30 x 3 1/2 are the same price. And the Clinchers listed in Lang's are a little less expensive but saving $20 to $30 a tire would take a few tire changes to pay for the cost of the rim. And at this point I do not know if the standard Ford Hayes fixed lug clincher rim would or would not bolt safely on the felloes made in Argentina. Additionally it sounds like for Argentina that the Straight Sided rim was the one Ford of Argentina used originally.

For John and Mike – do your straight sided demountable rims have fixed lugs similar to the USA Hayes Rims or loose lugs as shown in the 1925 Firestone advertisement above or more like the rectangular bracket with the long leg and short leg used by Kelsey and a similar one by Cleveland and Firestone on the loose lug rims supplied on some Fords? Can either of you post a photo showing the profile of the rim? I.e. does it appear to match any of the standard rims supplied by Ford – where it mates with the felloe? And do any of the rims show a manufacture name or date? (With tires mounted I would suspect that information is hidden – if it is there. ) And do your Straight Sided rims fit the Hayes, Kelsey, Cleveland, Firestone, or Motor wheel felloes? And could you bolt up either the Straight Sided or the Clincher to the same felloe?

Below are two of the removable lugs used on USA clincher rims:



Below are two of the clincher rims furnished by Ford that I believe were produced by both Firestone and Cleveland for Ford



If the rims have fixed lugs then the lugs will prevent the rim from turning on the felloe (primarily needed for the rear with the brake and acceleration). Or if they do not have fixed lugs then a cup or lug around the valve stem as shown above or the lug that was used on the Kelsey that straddled the lug bolt on the inside of the felloe would also work.

I think we have tire question answered. A 31 x 4 straight sided tire should work for the owners in Argentina.

But if possible I would like to gather additional information concerning the Firestone wheels and rims that would accept either the SS or CL rim shown in the illustration earlier.

Also if possible more information about the Straight Sided rims in Argentina -- are they Fixed lug or removable? Do they have a manufacture's logo?

Again thank you all for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 Cut Off

Hap,
My lugs are welded. Here's 3 pics. I found no markings--could be covered with paint. I need to weld some new lugs on a couple of them, if I can find some. I'll beadblast one that needs repairs and look for markings. The bottom pic shows the rubber valve stem between the latch and the lug on the right.

Mike,

Thank you so much for the photos. If your rims have a manufacture stamping -- it will probably be on the inside of the rim, and not visible until the tire & tube are removed. If you are going to weld on a lug -- I would guess there is a good chance you will remove the tire & tube. If you do, please look at the inside of the rim and see if you find any markings. Not all rims have markings. Many had very lightly stamped markings and it didn't take much rust to make them disappear. For example below is a photo Jim Golden posted previously of the inside of a Kelsey 21 inch straight sided split rim showing the “MFR BY KELSEY WHEEL CO (next line reads) DETROIT MICH.” That rim also has fixed lugs but was for the 21 inch balloon tires 1925-1927. Most of them are not nearly as easy to read.



Again, thank you for checking and posting the photos.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Hap,
I beadblasted the inside of one broken down for repair and found no markings.

mike

Mike,

Thank you so much for looking. In some cases knowing that there are no markings is helpful. For example I know the 1915-1916 Beaudett, Wilson, Hayes or Herbert (not sure which one), Monroe, and one other company not sure which that used an M&B all have a letter on the front or rear seat heel panel. So when I find a 1915-1916 open car body that does not have any letter -- by default I know it is one of the other manufactures that produced that body.

Again, thank you to everyone for looking. And if anyone runs across additional information later -- please drop me a note. If you click on my name at the top of any of my postings my profile come us and you can send me a private message or my e-mail is the third line down.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Clinchers do not wear well compared to the 21 inch balloon tires which last virtually forever. Would the 31 x 4 wear like the 21 inch or more like the clincher?

Back in the early 1970's, when reproduction parts made in the USA were not as plentiful as they are now, I worked for Tommy Traylor's Specialized Auto Parts in Houston. Those of you who are at least as old as me, will remember him and his business. Almost all of his T parts; most of his A parts; and a lot of his 32-48 parts were made in and imported from Argentina, which was about the only source to be found. I remember the 30X 3 1/2 Firestone tires were made in Argentina. The first load of them that we picked up at the Port of Houston were a shocker! We just knew that the South Americans had made a big mistake in manufacturing. When we sent them out to a customer, we got about as many of them back as were not sent back. I can't use the language that many customers used in complaining about the tires. My ears lost their virginity at that time. The tires could work on clincher rims if inflated to maximum pressure and checked often (like every stop of your car.) As I remember, there just wasn't much choice available in that size of tire. Maybe one other brand. I'm not sure. In the 21" size, both Sears Allstate and (I think) Monkey Wards) were available, plus maybe a few other brands. I always wondered if the 30X 3 1/2 straight sides were a fluke. It appears now, forty years later that they were what Argentinians used. P.S. Most of Tommy's other imported parts stock was made in Taiwan. I think he was the first American antique parts supplier to have the Taiwanese repro parts. Among the earliest Taiwan repro parts were: hub caps, radiator caps, Tiger timers, and outside door handles, to name a few. All rubber goods, gaskets, bearings, and a lot of other parts, came from Argentina. A few things came from India and that was about it. This is the reason that i am very careful not to "knock" the current available parts from dealers. Nothing fits like Henry's original parts (or is worth as much either).

Specialized Auto Parts. Wow. I haven't seen or heard that company mentioned in decades. I do remember them from when I first got involved in this hobby back in 1967. I do remember stickers on some parts indicating Made In Argentina.

Seems to me the problem has been taken care of; Buy 31X4SS tires or get clincher rims and buy clincher tires.
Did no model T Fords sold in Argentina have clinchers? There must be a few cars there with clinchers so they could take them off and see if they fit where they took none clincher rims from.
If Argentina was a Drive-the-left country until 1948 why ARE ALL THE MODEL t'S IN aRGENTINA LEFT HAND DRIVE? And the modle A's were right hand drive?
I remember an old guy visiting from Mexico. We were looking at a Hemming Motor News and he pointed out the Ford Quatros (4 cylinder Fords) and he didn't like model T Fords because when they went around corners the tires would come off.? Maybe they had straight side tires in Mexico too? Or maybe it was because they tried to run clinchers with 35 lbs. of air.?
Why would Ford have sold cars with both types?
Are there cars in New Zealand with straight sided tires pre-'25? How about Australia? Chile?
They must be having the same problem in Brazil too I would guess.
Was there a law in Argentina that kept them from using clinchers?

Hap and the others I just listed 2 NEW COMMANDER 31x4 tires straight sided that I purchased 15 years ago plus they are still in there plastic wrappers that I got from COKERS they have been in a insulated shop in the dark. 275.00 ea plus INS and UPS or pre-pay and I'll deliver them to Chickasha in March, I also have the rims used 125.00 ea, I have several prs of the rims, danuser88@ktis.net

Thank you all for your contributions and especially to Hap, who started this thread and has devoted so much time.
I learned a lot, because it was a surprise to almost all Argentines to learn that we are the only ones (with Uruguayan and Chilean), we use 30 x 3 1/2 straight side.
I think, as Bailey and Aaron, the best thing for us is to change our straight rims for clincher rims, as we have not found all over the world, factories that currently produce tires as we have used for over 60 years.
We found in the country a supplier that manufactures clincher rims, but with welded lugs.
The 1926 parts catalog of Argentina, had not straight rims, so, I guess it was something introduced later, perhaps during World War II, in the absence of tires.
We had no security problems with that kind of tires, which always played well at 55 pps.
I thank Terry Woods for his story, which I sent to many people in the country to remember what happened in the 70's with the Model T parts, A and V8.
As Aaron says, Argentina was Drive-the-left until 1946, when was changed to Drive-the-right. Ford Motor Company is in our country from 1913 and models T came from U.S. (not from Manchester nor Canada), left hand drive. This is now correct for our country and the models A, which were assembled specifically for Argentina Drive-the-left are now inverted.
Saludos desde Argentina and I meet some of you in Rutland, if you attend there.

Daniel, I remember well, that the words "Industrio Argentina" were cast into cast iron parts, like model T and A exhaust manifolds. All rubber goods, such as glass setting channels, etc., were in plastic bags with paper tags indicating the part number and "Industrio Argentina". I remember the Firestone tires had either Made in Argentina or Industrio Argentina on them.

Hello,

I Imported my T form Argentina and it came with 30 X 3 1/2 straight sided split rims with its tires.

Those tires where Firestone made in Argentina.

They where in very bad condition and I searched for replacement but could not find any, so I changed the rims to clinchers.