Radiator repairs and French "rocky mountain" brakes - continued

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Radiator repairs and French "rocky mountain" brakes - continued
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Corfield on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 08:18 am:

Hi all , I posted some questions last year http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/226289.html and I'm afraid I'm back looking for some detailed information. This may be a stupid question but bear with me while I try to explain. What bold and thread sizes are used on Model T engines? Until we started working on this one I'd assumed they would be American standard UNC / UNF sizes (or Sellers, or USS as they were known pre late1940s?) with the across flats measurement of nuts and bolts being the common 7/16”, 1/2”, 9/16” etc. However when we wanted to remove the inspection cover of the transmission to check the brake bands, and the oil pan plate to inspect the bottom end of the engine for sludge, we discovered that a 1/2” spanner was too small and the next common size up, 9/16”, too large. What actually fitted was a 13mm …?

I know engines were made in Ireland and used in UK (Trafford Park) built Ts as well as those built elsewhere in Europe. Is it possible that these used 1/4” Whitworth threads and associated bolts in these areas? I can't find the correct series of thread gauges at the moment to check thread angles so I thought I'd check with the experts first.

Ian C
ps rad is back in but yet to be tested with a running engineInstalled Rad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 08:46 am:

Ian,

You may be correct about whitworth bolts being used. The threads are interchangeable with UNC except for 1/2" where on is 12 tpi and the other 13tpi.
If the cover on the trans has hex head bolts, they are most likely replacements, as T usually had round head slotted machine screws for this purpose. Both these and the bolts on the pan inspection plate are 5/16", not 1/4". The pan bolts were hex head, 1/2" as standard. If you need a 1/4 whitworth spanner to fit them, they too are replacements. These will be 5/16" bolts.
Don't you just love that whitworth stuff!

To keep things authentic when using 5/16" coach bolts elsewhere on the T, I have to purchase 5/16" unc nuts for them. These are the correct size which is 1/2" accross the flats.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Corfield on Monday, February 13, 2012 - 09:14 am:

Thanks Allan that's useful info. The vehicle appears to have been restored several times over the years including a conversion to its present military tender (pick up) configuration. It seems that it was originally built in France as a Torpedo or Tourer but we have no history prior to the Museum aquiring it in the late 1970s. The French connection also threw us into some confusion with the 13mm spanners fitting key bolt heads although it was clear the threads were not metric (using a simple test of trying a 8mm nut!). The similarity between the spanner size for metric and Whitworth series made us think Whitworth or maybe special metric headed bolts fitted as aftermarket conversions to make life easier for the French mechanics repairing and servicing the vehicles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Corfield on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 10:03 am:

Well, we finally got it to run, all I need to do now is to learn how to drive it properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh7TvSey500

Ian C

ps my driving is not helped by LHD layout (ie the wrong side for those who drive on the "proper" side of the road.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Halpin on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 12:49 pm:

If my Mrs. and ever get to visit the UK I won't be doing my own driving. I know for a fact, the first time I turned a corner, I'd be on the 'wrong' side of the road for you Brits.
I'm an Air Force Viet Nam Vet, I've got to visit Duxford before I die.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

I wont say I am 100% sure and have tons of documentation, but generally the bolts and nuts used in a T was the US threads regardless of where they where assembled. Only exception I can think of is the sparkplugs, which I believe the french assembly plant had a "metric" engine which ment it was 14 mm. spark plug threads in the head. All bolts where still UNC or UNF etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:37 am:

Ian, I think most bolts and nuts are standard US fare, but there are some gooney threads used. Like the Bendix cover screws seem to be almost a metric thread.

Even so, after working on my MGTC I can't believe anyone would complain about thread standards on a T Model Ford. The T Model MG has Whitworth, Brittish Standard, French threads and metric... all sort of thrown in at random as MG used up parts from various sources and from various foreign car companies they absorbed. I'm still looking for that large nut which holds a Lucas Headlight onto the car!

Cheerio, TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 01:30 am:

I just went through the bendix cover screw thing.
The screw is standard, #12 I think, but the thread pitch is an uncommon 28 tpi (?).......it's an in-between pitch.
Luckily, at the shop, we never threw smaller screws and such out. They all went into a 3 lb. coffee can and luckily I found the screws I needed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Olivier CHABANNE on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 05:25 am:

Ian,

Does your model from France. In France, there are only the metric, then I think for the restoration or repair period, the mechanic did not find the screws with a thread of origin simply transforms the metric thread to find more easily screws.

Terry.
Send me the dimension of the bolt you're looking for the lighthouse Lucas, I'll watch what I could find you.

Olivier (France)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Corfield on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 06:44 am:

We've re-used most of the bolts that came out of the engine except the cylinder head ones. The old ones seemed to be a mixture of sizes. Although the thread diameters were consistent the bolt head dimensions differed and it was clear that some had started life as longer bolts but had been cut down to length. I was worried in case someone had fitted British Whitworth (55 degree angle threads) instead of American standard ones (60 degree thread angle). We decided that it would be prudent to replace them all and bought a set from the UK Model T register. They didn't cost much and was worth it for peace of mind.

Ian C


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 09:33 am:

Quick note on Olivier's "lighthouse Lucas." Olivier uses an online translator and the French word "phare" means both "lighthouse" and "headlight."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Olivier CHABANNE on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 04:31 pm:

Merci Dick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 04:45 pm:

De rien, Olivier. Un "lighthouse" est un phare qu'on trouve au bord de la mer et un "headlight" est un phare de voiture pour illuminer la route.


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