would like input from others that are using synthetic oil. I'm sure lubricating is ok, just concerned about linings. using cotton band linings and 5w30 conventional oil now. would like to try 5w30 synthetic. Thanks!
Mike Hageli
Elmhurst IL

Mike, I use synthetic oil in my T's. Works just fine. You may have to take up your clutch a half a turn. (I use the stock steel clutch).

Michael,
The real advantage of synthetic oil is resistance to high temperatures and longer life. Without a oil filter on a T the oil needs to be changed frequently, so there is probably no real advantage to use synthetic oil unless it is less expensive.

Jim

Mike:

I'm sure you will see pro & con responses to your post.

I for one use synthetic motorcycle oil in my '26 Runabout.

Why ?? Most, not all, cycles use the same lubrication for the engine & transmission - just like the Model T engine/trans unit.

Motorcycle oil usually has the older SF useage designation ( on the back label in a circle )... and has the most anti-wear additives ie: ZDDP. which has shown to be needed in engines with flat bottom tappets... just like the Model T engine.

The grade that is available in my area is the 15W40 in the Mobil One brand.

Good thing the same anti-wear additive is in the regular dino oil in the Valvolene brand.

Why go the extra money for the synthetic ??? It's your choice, as well as mine. Period .

My engine was rebuilt & I opt to keep it running with the best lubricant I can buy. ..... even though it wasn't used "in the day"..

I use wood band linings with no problem with chatter due to oil choice or other cause.

5W30 is a good choice for a multigrade oil, & will give you less resistance cranking a cold engine.

Even more important is that designation in that circle on the back label of the oil container. "SF" is an older formulation but has the highest amount of anti-wear ingredients compared to the latest "SN" designation .

With the cotton linings, suggested by some to use the transmission inspection door screen "filter" as sold by the vendors. I use one just to see what gets trapped.

Bob Jablonski

One advantage of synthetic oil is easier starts is really frigid weather. If the car is driven regularly at subzero temps it would likely be worth the added cost.

Here is one tidbit from Wiki:
In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two-year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular mineral oil. In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high-speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service - stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures."

Probably just another one of those things that needs a controlled test with Model T's rather then New York Taxi cabs.

Jim

I have used it for 10 years now. So far so good. I can not quantify it is any better but it has certainly not caused any problems.

Personally think its a very good idea at least for run in. Fresh Babbitt and fresh bronze need time to burnish the finish. Its been proven that synthetic is far superior to the average oil.

I have been told NOT to use synthetic during break in. Due to supposedly better lubricating efficiency, break in could take much longer for the rings, or possibly glaze over and never break in properly.
I was told, and I don't remember by whom, not to use synthetic in my Cummins diesel before about 30,000 miles.
Roar

I think It's great stuff and run it in my modern drivers and equipment but I use reg 10 w 30 in my TT. because I change it very often due to lack of a filter. It sure couldn't hurt anything in my opinion. but I sure wouldn't use it for extended oil changes in a Model T.

Roar I was always told that too but it is installed at the factory) in:

Acura RDX

Aston Martin DB9, DB9 Volante, DBS, DBS Volante, Virage, Virage Volante, Rapide

All Bentley Vehicles

Bristol Fighter

Chevrolet Camaro SS

Chevrolet Corvette Z06, ZR1 and Grand Sport Coupe

Chevrolet CR8

Chrysler 300C SRT-8

Dodge Challenger SRT-8

Holden HSV

Ilmor MV-10 710 Marine Engines

Lexus LFA

Mercedes-Benz AMG Vehicles

Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution

Nissan GT-R

Opel Insignia

All Porsche Vehicles

All S&S Motorcycles

Saab 9-3 TTiD

Vauxhall VXR8

Viper Motorcycles

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/synthetics/myths.aspx

Our cars are not in a heated building. When I would start them in the winter, below 30 degrees, I had to jack up a wheel on the non starter cars to crank them. After trying synthetic oil, I could hand crank regardless of temps.

This is not scientific, but I decided easier cranking meant less friction, so I use synthetic in all our cars now.

Rob

From my iPad

Some of you say it can't hurt or not caused problems using 5W30 synthetic.
Well long term forum readers will know that I'm dead against 5W in a unknown history of an engine, many a page of tech info to give reasons why not to use 5W synthetic oil in an older style engine can be found, but the only one that comes up why to use in the T is for the transmission in a cold climate start by some of you guys.

The starting viscosity of oil for winter rating is always calculated at O degrees F.

Shell technical specs Quote, "Five times as effective at removing sludge from dirty engines than a normal mineral oil.

There has been forum members that have recommending using synthetic oils for barn finds, not a good idea.

Low in SAPS, some say that the T valve spring tension is not high enough to require those additives, others say it's vital, why take that chance with an oil that usually costs more anyway.

I don't see any reason to expect any benefits from a synthetic oil in a Model T. You have to change the oil in a Model T long before you would ever lose the benefit of the additives in a conventional oil because as several have mentioned there is no folter system. Again, it likely will not hurt anything but it will double or triple your expenses on every oil change.

I did try using Mobil 1 in my 1913 touring. I noticed immediately that the oil leakage had increased dramatically compared to using conventional 5W-30. I went back to regular 5-30 and saw an immediate reduction in oil leakage.

My take. I changed my 27' over to 5-30w Mobil 1 racing (motorcycle) to get the benefits of zddp. Now my clutch discs are sticking. I have to jack the rear up to start first time and hit brake until they free up. I have gone back to 30 wt non- detergent and my discs still stick. Coincidence?

SynOil is much harder to clean off the driveway...

I like Synoil 90W in the diffy, as it doesn't stink so bad when it gets on your hands.

Michael, go to the link below from a post I did last year. I've ran conventional motor oil in my engine for over 12K miles and as you'll see in the pictures, there is no wear. There is really no need to run synthetics. Most of us are not driving the cars in the cold of winter and today's conventional oils are far superior to the original oils.


http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/219830.html?1309169878

Here is an old solution.....

Ivan:

Sounds like a mechanical problem. Check adjustment of the speed shaft bolt.

A few thoughts. A diesel engine runs without spark plugs using compression four or more times what a stock T does. Without that compression it would not run.
Unlike most Ts Diesel engines also have an oil pump and are I am sure tested to the max. My diesel runs 60 pounds.
A T has all plain bearings with pressure developed with with lots of hydromatic bearing design creating hydrodynamic pressure to separate rotating parts from babbitt or bronze.
With different methods of finishing the rotating parts used by T folks that's all important for bearing life in a T synthetic gives those parts a better chance of good run in without scoring and over heating lowering the viscosity of the oil.
I run standard oil in my T, with a vintage over and under its put in neutral for starting.
With some testing done on triple gears Its easy to see the difference from a polished or burnished finish on a plain bearing.
In the future my Ts will be broken in with synthetic but the oil changed often after break in with standard oil for cost reasons and flushing out the engine and transmission.
If it takes a few more miles for the rings to run in the unfiltered air from the carburetor will do it.
Just my thinking!

I have used synthetic (10-30 Mobil 1) in my 1914 since 1992 for the reasons Rob Heyen mentioned above. Sometimes Santa arrives in a Model T in our town and it sure makes starting a hand cranked T in December, a lot easier. I also use it in my 1911 for the same reasons. In my 1925 and 1927 I use regular 10-30 oil because I just don't see the need to spend the extra $$ for the way those are driven. I agree with the statements about changing oil, both synthetic and regular seem to get dirty in about the same amount of driving time and need to be changed at the same intervals. If it wasn't for the cranking when very cold issue, I wouldn't bother with the synthetic because our standard modern oils are fine under normal conditions.

If, say, 5W-30 synthetic is easier to start in the cold than regular 5W-30 AND.........5W-30 is too thin to give a good film of lubricant.......Would 10W-30 synthetic be a good compromise that would give better film thickness while still being easy to start?

Since Paul brought up the subject of flushing, This is what the Ford manual recommends.

"It is desirable to occasionally flush the crank case by replacing the crankcase plug and putting two quarts of lubricating oil into the motor and running the engine slowly for a few minutes; then remove crank case plug and drain off the flushing oil, then replace plug and refill with fresh oil".

I don't do that but I do this instead. After warming up the engine to get all the crud in suspension, I either jack up the front end or pull it up on the trailer ramps. Drain the old oil thoroughly, I don't get in a hurry when I change oil. I pour a new quart in the crankcase. I let it drain thoroughly, then I replace the oil plug and pour in 4 qt. In my way of thinking, this flushes the dips in the pan that would otherwise still have old oil in them. I'm not sure how much they hold in total but I suspect somewhere around a cup.

I don't mind wasting a quart of oil if it will help remove a cup of dirty oil from my new oil change. This may not be necessary, it's just something I've always done.

I have been using Full Synthetic oils for over 20 years now and this is what I have found. First of all, Synthetic oils are made thinner than the Petroleum oils the are replacing. The reason for this is that petroleum oil get thinner as the temperature rises and the Synthetic oils greatly resist this thinning at higher temperatures. The main reason the the new synthetic oils are so popular is the gain in Engine fuel mileage due to the thin viscosity that causes less friction and reduced internal engine windage. \The Synthetic's work really well especially when the engines are cold. We ran a 50/50 mix of ATF and Mobil 1 in our race car gearboxes for the HP gain without any problems except it tried to leak out of every crack it and seal it could.
Several years ago I tried to run Mobile 1 in my 2002 6.0 Gas Engine Silverado. Since these Engines have a short piston skirt piston slap was soon noticed and after 3,000 miles so I changed back to Regular old straight old Quacker State and the slap went away. Now my Wife's car, She has a 2000 Chrysler 300m with the HO 3.5 liter engine. It had around a 110,000 miles and used little to no oil between changes ( 2,000 miles). When I changed it to Full Synthetic and this car started burning a half quart of oil right away in the first 1500 miles. This concerned me thinking about ruining the cars 4 oxygen sensors at $70ea, due to oil contamination. Because of this I change back to regular Petroleum base oil and the oil burning stopped. The car now has 160,000 miles on it and still uses little to no oil between changes.

I spoke to a friend of mine who owns his own Auto Parts store and he said he hears this all the time. He said that the newer engines had to be redesigned to use the Synthetics especially to stop them from leaking the oil past the Gaskets and Seals and Rings.

I don't see any benefit to running Fully Synthetic oil in any older engines that were not designed for it unless you are trying to improve your fuel mileage or need that little extra horsepower and don't mind a few more leaks and possibly having it get past your rings.



\popjpeg{270141,oil}

John, I agree with your methods.

Fred, yes, I see no benefit in synthetic oil in anything other than what it was designed for.

Royce, I can see now why we have never seen eye to eye on 5w oil in T's over the last few years, I'm assuming when you say regular or conventional 5w30 oil, that it is mineral based, that is not an option on, with on the shelf sales of 5w oils in Australia, it is synthetic.

Synthetic oils claim to fame for the modern engines is to give better fuel consumption etc, offering 32 and 42% less friction on some brands, sounds great for engine life but remember, the poor old T needs every bit of friction it can muster up to make the bands operate as Henry intended, why nearly halve the chances of stopping, + all the other negatives of using synthetics in older engines.

Don't know if Jersey George can post it but I think many would be surprised at the finish difference between different machining methods. A spiral reamer puts about a three times better finish then a boring bar.
That's why I use time saver, it may not fill the valleys but it sure knocks down the mountains on bearings.

Kerry:

I disagree with your statement:

"Synthetic oils claim to fame for the modern engines is to give better fuel consumption etc, offering 32 and 42% less friction on some brands, sounds great for engine life but remember, the poor old T needs every bit of friction it can muster up to make the bands operate as Henry intended, why nearly halve the chances of stopping, + all the other negatives of using synthetics in older engines.?"


My bands work the same with synthetic oil. No band slippage, bands contact drums & have adequate stopping power. Period .

There is a difference between the viscosity of oil ( 5W30. 10W40, 20W50 ) and the rating symbols on the back of the oil containers ( SF , SG, SM, SN ) indicates the formulation and manufacturer's engine needs. Gotta do your homework to know what oil to use.


I'm aware there were no such ratings in the "T" era, if we are to use these oils one has to understand what's in the oil.



Bob Jablonski

Bob, So you are saying that synthetic oil that has "42% less friction" plastered on the bottle is BS.

No Kerry, you stated that.

The Mobil One synthetic Motorcycle oil ( SF rated ) does not have any friction modifiers... perfect for the Model T engine.

you lost me on that Bob, I stated what?
Are you able to buy 5w30 mobil 1 synthetic Motorcycle oil at your end of the world? I can only get 10w40 or 20w50.

Kerry:


The 10W40 should be OK. Check the Mobil One website.

Paul,

I’m not sure which chart you are talking about, but if you have one of mine and want to post it direct, that’s ok with me.

Others,

This question of lubrication can be best said with a story. 99.999% of the folks want to pour ‘something’ in and not worry about it until it is time to replace that ‘something’ and at the same time virtually assure themselves that they have caused no wear on anything in between. They don’t want to worry about their driving habits, they don’t want to worry about any existing wear, and they don’t really want to care about what was the average (say) time between tranny rebuilds back in the day. Tall order but they just also figure modern science has to be better than 100 years ago.

Ford simply said straight 30 weight since that is what they had and it was dino based. Clutch plates turned to glue in cold weather that is what the jack was for. This in an era just coming out of whale blubber and bear fat as general lubricants. The engineers at Ford ‘fiddled’ with things such as fits, clearances, and shapes until the ‘machine’ worked ‘good enough’ that most of the customers were happy with service life…in an era where originally the benchmark was a horse.

We can’t lose sight of that ‘view’ now 100 years later.

Multi-weight oil was a boon when it came along…it gave one level of performance when cold and a different level of performance when at full operating temperature. Things like start up piston slap, and clutch plate drag now could be explained away as a miracle of science. The only draw back and what the oil people never told folks was that frictional properties as they related to load bearing capacity at a low viscosity could actually double until the machine reached operating temperature, but hey, it heated up real quick and made the ‘molasses gunk’ problem go away in the process.

Additives came along as the use of leaded bronze bushes (not just by Ford) present another problem. They don’t want to hold oil, the surfaces don’t want to wick oil, and creative ways to channel oil flow were arrived at that turned this into a ‘dodged that bullet’ experience.

Then along came the synthetics as a way to perhaps lower a dependence on foreign oil. (As an aside, what most also do not realize and would be an ‘imponderable’ to modern thinking is that in the good old days, the likes of Quaker State had a line that WAS selling recycled oil were one to read the fine print on the can).

In every machinery application that I have switched from ‘dino’ to synthetic over the years, I have never found something moving ‘backwards’ and in some cases have actually come across life improvement for equal application and when holding meetings with the likes of (then) Mobil it may surprise that no-one could actually explain ‘why’ in a tangible way, it always boiled down to ‘that’s what synthetics are supposed to do’.

Many would be surprised to learn (and I’m not at all advocating use in a T) that there exists today a ‘grease’ by definition since it has NO flow characteristics yet is technically a very viscous ‘oil’ equivalent as it does flow within itself. Flourinated Teflon is its base, and technically as long as it sees less than 400 degrees (including hot spots)it is a permanent lubricant that can just be ‘goobered’ in place and stays there. Its color changes should it pick up contaminates and the color dictates when a change is needed. It cost on the order of $100 per pound and the argument is that it is so slick contaminants should not be an issue for a long, long time…something on the order of 2500 hours of run time.

As to standard synthetics, or even more modern ‘dino’, you might as well do a kero splash bath a couple of times before you decide to add them as that is exactly what these newer ‘oils’ do, some contain detergent, others contain ‘stuff’ that behaves like a detergent and it goes and cleans everything up, and in some cases it is near 100 years of ‘gunk’ that may just be holding other things together or allowing them to ‘work’.

Synthetics in my opinion can’t ‘hurt’, have never found an application where they do. Can some of the ‘ingredients’ actually help a T? I’m not sure there is a quantifiable answer as it would be impossible to do a controlled study due to all the other factors. Some have over 10 years experience using 100% synthetics and claim no issues which ought to say something.

I’m not trying to open a hornets nest, but a ‘curiosity’ would be for those who have experienced ‘drum’ issues to look past whether the linings are ‘yellows’, or ‘woods’ or ‘cotton’ and see what they have been using for ‘lubrication’ right down to brand. There was a report in another thread that a local club was experiencing way to many drum failures than expected, and it didn't seem to matter what band lining they used. The answer could be a surprise…and then again it could be a nothing, but if they all use the same brand oil or the majority all used the same brand 'oil' it just might also say something for enlightenment.

5W-30 is a rating system developed by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE). The international society determines standards for automotive engineering specifications.

5W-30 synthetic is no different in cold weather than non - synthetic oil with regard to viscosity Kerry. Also, thicker oil is not better oil, particularly in cold weather. Original Model T oil was equivalent to today's SAE 20.

Guys, one thing about oil threads, all will never agree to any one thing. I have quite a bit of motorcycle experience and once worked where there was an oil analysis lab. For those reasons, I will be running a non synthetic motorcycle oil in my newly rebuilt 1926 as the motorcycle oil has friction modifiers to work with wet clutches and should serve well in both the planetary transmission and engine. I don't believe engine temperatures will go high enough to warrant a synthetic, plus since it is a non filtered system the oil will be changed frequently enough that the benefit of a synthetic would not be realized. The rebuilder of the engine recommended Shell Rotella (a diesel oil) but a friend of mine has experienced drum cracking which he feels is from requiring too much pressure to control the drums. So, based on my experience and his observations I'll be trying the non synthetic motorcycle oil.

Talking about oil is like talking about religion: we will never agree on this.

I am somewhat of an oil freak. I have numerous, quite different vehicles, from my two Model T's to a Porsche 356A and a Volvo PV544 to a rotary-powered Mazda revving up to 9,500rpm on the track to my V-12-powered Lamborghini Islero all the way to my motorcycles, ranging from a BMW R69S to my Harley-powered Buell S2.

There is what I consider "the best" oil for a specific vehicle/engine. It's based on the specific engine, its construction and use of the vehicle. I run my rebuilt Volvo without overdrive and stock 4:56 rear end at high rpm and the freeway, and it gets silly expensive Motul Le Mans 20W-60 at 38.00 per 2 liter bottle. Still cheap compared to an engine rebuilt. My diesel Mercedes runs on synthetic Rotella, whereas my Cummins-turobodiesel-powered Dodge pickup shares something with my Model T's: they get Valvoline Blue 15W-40 dino diesel oil. On the T's, I change it every few hundred miles. I don't see an advantage in spending $29 per gallon instead of $21 every other month on a car with super low compression that runs at 1,400 to 1,600rpm max. I'm sure synthetic oil won't hurt it, aside from the side effects of higher detergent capacities of an oil in an engine with decades of crud in it, but the saved money is better spent on changing the oil more often. If I had a Frontenac powered Speedster with a T bottom end, things would look different once again.

Living in SoCal where it's a chilly 48 in the winter and a hot 82 in the summer, I personally would not use anything with a 5 or even 10 viscosity on an engine with large tolerances. Again, would I live where it's friggin' cold, the requirements of my Model T engine oil would be different.

Ever notice how many more miles cars are getting on their engines with rebuilding them?
Have you also noticed most everything made in the U.S. after 1992 says to use 5-30 on the oil filler cap?
Have you noticed that some newer cars, like Honda, recommend 5-20 and now even 0-20?
And they don't say anything about using 20-50 instead if you live in southern Ca.

I don't remember ever reading that Ford recommended 30 oil for the T.
But I remember them saying, "a light oil". Later after the SAE specs were standardized the recommended oil for warm weather in a T was SAE 20.
It is very difficult to splash tar.
Pistons and valve stems and some cam followers are splash lubricated, even on most modern engines.

Royce.
My disagreement on 5w could have been cleared up some years ago if I had done some more home work and or, that you had told me more facts.
Now, I don't know why you put that 5w viscosity is the same for mineral or synthetic, I never said it wasn't.
You saying what you did earlier in this thread has cleared some, "back to regular 5w/30"
And I apologise for any thing I may have said out of place in any other thread in the past to anyone on the subject of oil.

In Australia, we have never had a call for or use or able to buy a 5W mineral engine oil, only available as,
A flushing oil
hydraulic oil
ATF
None of which anyone would run in a engine.
Now if you want a 5w engine oil of late, it is expensive and only in synthetic.
Synthetic oil dosen't mix well with mineral build up, it will flush mineral build up of sludge and usually turn an older engine into an oil burner as others have stated.
So if someone requires a 5w (mineral) for extra cold or a problem clutch, so be it.

I don't think 30W or SAE 30 is the oil Ford recommended for the Model T.

I have seen cans of Western Auto oil marked "for Ford Model T" and "SAE 20" on the same can. I suspect these cans were from the 1940's or 1950's as oil was generally sold in glass refillable containers before WWII.

I used to use SAE 30 dino but then last winter, i changed to SAE 20W. To my surprise the noise from the engine was less and no knocking.

I speculated quite a lot how that could be and simply came to the conclusion, the the flow of oil to the front was richer nd in general the oil around in the engine was simply more plentiful.

I'd use 10w30 detergent oil in the summer and 5w30 detergent oil in the winter, if you live in an area with cold winters of course. I would rather have more splash and flow than oil starvation upon cold start where a great deal of engine wear occurs.

We used to call Diesel oil "Series 3 oil". Series 3 oil is actually high detergent.

The only negative I've heard of on using synthetic on older engines is it softens neoprene seals and of course the price.

I noticed a few of you guys made the point that Synthetic oils do not extend the oil change intervals in a "T". To be sure Synthetics lubricants will last longer because of limited viscosity breakdown due to high temperatures over regular Petroleum oils. The main reason for changing your oil is to remove particle and acid contaminants from your engines lubricating system. A Model "T" has no device for removing the small particles or acids and therefore cannot extended the regular scheduled changes the same as a normal oil would. Placing a small magnet somewhere you can get to it inside your crankcase, will benefit your engine way more than pouring in new synthetic motor oil
Please change your oil regularly.

Has anybody come up with an external pump and filter rig that stays in the garage? Saving one oil change should pay for it.

Would a coffee filter be enough?

I have two button magnets in my oil screen.

rdr

Rick

Not a bad idea. If we could come up with some sort of fitting with a valve on it that would replace the transmission drain plug, it would be simple to slip a hose on it for a small electric pump (rubber vane type). The output of the pump could be fed through a typical oil filter (external fittings are available) and from there simply dumped back in the oil filler tube.

I would love to see someone with the resources cob one together. If not, I may take it on as a summer project!

Cheers
schuh

Listen: an oil change on an Ferrari Enzo costs $1,200 at the dealer. It takes 11 quarts of Shell Helix 10W-60 Shell at a whopping $61.59 a quart.

An oil change on a Model T costs $21 if you use excellent dino oil, and $32 if you use excellent synthetic, short of Motul 300V the best engine oil that you can buy without owning a Formula 1 team.

Stop trying to figure out if you can make up for the $11 price difference per oil change by keeping the dirty stuff longer inside the engine.

Seriously!

Sorry Bernard, I'm part of the "use it up, wear it out generation" (WWII slogan).

Besides, innovating is always fun and sometimes profitable.

Would you believe I even do my own oil changes on my modern vehicles. Hard to believe, eh?

Cheers
schuh

PS That's why I don't have a Ferrari!

I do all my oil changes on all my own vehicles for 3 reasons:

1) I choose the oil
2) it's cheaper
3) I let the car bleed out overnight

I do progressive oil changes: just replace what leaks out.

i once poured my old T oil through an old oil filter element pressed into a funnel but decided to use it in a modern car, the T engine has suffered enough already.

Got a big laugh out loud from Brenard's post. I had a neighbor that leased a jaguar. (This was about 10+ years ago). When the first oil change was due she returned to the dealer and was told it had to be left overnight. "I can't do that. Can I have it changed locally"? Sure the manager says. but it's a special filter. Cost? $60.00. She buys it and has the oil changed at a shop in town. The mechanic comes out and asked her who changed your oil? She says nobody. It's the first time. He shows her the filter he removed. Motorcraft. Probably 5 bucks. I think Ford still had Jag at the time.