(way off topic) How to restore Chch cathedral

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: (way off topic) How to restore Chch cathedral
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 01:12 am:

i know alot of people from Chch seem to read this so i thought i would ask here (seeing i have no other means of communication)
It was a building damaged in an earthquake. So some people want to pull the old building down while others want it modernized. i have a cheaper idea.
Why not brace the inside until it is stable so it can still be used even if the roof leaks and then plant it with creeping vines until it really looks like it belongs in the garden city? Got to be cheaper than all the other options.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks_-_Surf_City on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 01:24 am:

Modified Bitumen Roofing Tar is the correct repair. Contact some of our Alberta friends; they have plenty. :-)

Seriously, sounds like a real engineering challenge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 02:31 am:

Not if you intend to leave it looking like it was in an earthquake


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:16 am:

As a proponet of a complete and accurate rebuild I do not see what is wrong with $50-$100M (Which could be raised locally and abroad)to either earthquake proof and reconstruct or fully dismantle and rebuild from the foundations up. Considering we have wasted $25M to build a TEMPORARY stadium $100M seems like childs play. The anglican church should give the remains to the people of Christchurch so we can rebuild it for both church and secular uses. It has already been deconsecrated.

The below letter I wrote which was in yesterdays Press sums up my view. For those of you in the US with any interest the Bishop is Canadian (Nothing against Canadians) - she has no local interest or understanding of our heritage. My family have been in Canterbury since about 1854-which is a relatively long time for Christchurch.

I am deeply saddened, yet not surprised by the short sighted decision to do away with the Anglican Cathedral of Christchurch lead principally by a Bishop with no real connection to the people, heritage or historic buildings of our city. Our Cathedral (The Cathedral of the people of Canterbury not merely the Cathedral Seat of the Anglican Bishop of Christchurch) symbolises the ideals, hopes and dreams of our proud forebears. Many argue that as Christchurch, and New Zealand are evolving into an ever more secular society this building has no place in our lives or city, but with this sentiment I must disagree. I would ask the question – Does any other building in the city of Christchurch more clearly illustrate where we as a city have come from? More clearly define our heritage and what has made us what we are today? I challenge every interested individual to have their say, to be heard and demand that a full consultation is offered to the people of Canterbury so that we can, in a transparent way, establish if there is indeed a safe, affordable and feasible way to save, strengthen and rebuild our provincial landmark. We need more time and a thorough consultation process before we destroy our history and the heritage of future generations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 07:43 am:

You have to understand,most people dont want history preserved.Because then history can repeat it's self with much less resistance.
I hope you can save it folkes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 03:36 pm:

What a shame. I don't how the Christchurch Cathedral came to be built in the first place but, in Detroit, in the late 1800's, people did without and actually mortgaged their homes to finance the construction of their churches. It was important to them. I suspect very few would consider that today. A dedicated few still struggle to maintain these Godly works of art.

My best to you in your efforts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 05:53 pm:

It's important to evaluate the geological data if it's possible to see how often these kind of earthquakes are expected to reoccur in the area. A list of historical quakes in NZ shows two notable quakes in Christchurch in 1869 and 1870.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquakes_in_New_Zealand
I guess that was just before this cathedral was built(?) If the geological record shows repeated similar strikes every 100 - 200 years back, then I'd say it's unfortunately better to tear it down and rebuild the chatedral with modern more shockproof techniques from ground.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

Hi Roger,

It has been forgotten over the past say 50 years but Christchurch has been active for many years.

This will be at least the 3rd time it has sustained EQ damage since it was built-but this is by far the most major.

I am personally an advocate for a tear down and rebuild (replica) utilising as much as possible from the wreckage.

I know its way off topic-but its a bit like everything old that many forum members value (Steam boats, furniture, old machinery and cars) there are those who value them and there are those who see nothing but the modern. And I am not convinced that modern is always the right way. Many international experts have evaluated the Cahthedral and say it can be 100% of the EQ code or higher but the Anglican church is 'hell bent' on building a modern structure to go along with the moernising of their values.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack J. Cole on Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - 11:31 pm:

Well a private group needs to buy the church and let the Anglicans build a new 1 elsewhere.That way both sides get what they want.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bede Cordes, New Zealand on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 03:26 am:

Alex, I agree whole-heartedly with your opinion. Period.

2 of the 3 people from the Christchurch area who post on here, have now posted !

Regards,
Bede


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 04:31 am:

Just a couple of T photos to bring it back to topic :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 04:33 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael K Mullis on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 04:35 am:

That would not be period correct, therefore I am opposed to it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 05:08 am:

Alex

Good on you for your stand. I am pleased to see others standing their ground too. I believe the issue is far greater than church ownership of the land/buildings - Canterbury people have taken another form of ownership of the site, and they ought to be listened to.

I couldn't help myself a few days ago and added my 5 cents worth to the debate story in the Press... see http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/6526116/Call- for-TV-cathedral-debate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 05:35 am:

Yes, if it was possible to insert shock absorbers that works in the Wellington parliament building, then perhaps the cathedral can be saved without being fully dismantled?
A giant set of double Hasslers combined with friction dampers may help :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, March 08, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

Alex, Kep, please post some post earthquake pictures. I would hope it could be saved one way or another. We found Christchurch and the South Island a wonderful place to visit and one day would like to come back again. Maybe your message could go beyond the forum and you can get some help from across the world.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 02:26 am:

Nice to see some people know the value of knowing history. Other people think it is "bunk" for some reason...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, March 09, 2012 - 02:36 am:

How hard can it be to bolt some angle iron to the rubble to hold it up for another century? (see picture below for an example)
ruins


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 04:22 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 04:30 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 04:31 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 04:32 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 04:36 am:

And as it used to be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 07:45 am:

What about the rumor that the land under ChCh is rather unstable and will never support much weight again?

Is the man in the statue Scott, an early Antarctic explorer?

I attended services in that church a little over 50 years ago. The building was beautiful inside and outside then. The church is definitely worth rebuilding, if the ground is solid.

Washington, DC has a similar situation now from earthquake damage to the Washington Cathedral and several million dollars have been found or raised to rebuild it, a work in progress at this time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 05:21 pm:

Hi James

If(?) the land is found wanting them I think a relocation elsewhere is not a major concern. But sadly most people have given up as the authorities are telling them it is a hopeless case and all over. Many international experts say there is no reason to give up but the Anglican Church and the government are dead against it and want it gone.

The Statue is John Robert Godley -this is how he last looked


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

Here is the Robert Falcon Scott Statue to which you refer.



After


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

It likely could be rebuilt to the same as the existing standard. The ground was already unstable or it wouldn't have fallen. Problem is, the next large earthquake could come while it is full of people. It might be possible, with the right architect to build one with reinforcement which still maintains the original style appearance.

Sorry about that happening, but I understand, having lived all my life in California, I have experienced many earthquakes, but the "big one" only comes about every 150-300 years, and that is a longer interval than a human lifetime. Time will tell whether the modern buildings will withstand the big one.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Saturday, March 10, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

I have a strong personal view on this matter, but I think many if not most commentators are ill informed. Tomorrow evening there is a debate on our national tv, and I hope that parties from both sides are able to come together and present factual, well-founded arguments about why the cathedral should be saved, or demolished. So far, that has not happened and the people of Christchurch, if not NZ, feel closed out and in the dark over it. One could say that the Anglican Church, which owns the land and buildings, has been arrogant in their approach. I do not think they understand that we had "adopted" that building for uses way beyond religious ones.

See the latest at http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/6555342/Thous ands-farewell-cathedral

Also see interior pics and more comments.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/6547116/Inter ior-views-show-Cathedrals-damage

John Stokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bede Cordes, New Zealand on Monday, March 12, 2012 - 05:34 am:

Dead right John.

To me it is (was) the symbol of our city. It's so much more than a church.

Regards,
Bede Cordes
Lincoln


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 07:36 am:

For anyone with an interest in history and historic buildings (I am sure there are quite a few of us on here) please help support our action to halt the demolition of this building and sign the petition found at:

http://www.restorechristchurchcathedral.co.nz/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 01:26 pm:

The photo on the petition site (overhead aerial) shows that much of the cathedral is still standing, visually intact (I have no idea of the structural integrity). I also note that most of the rubble is gone--I hope its put somewhere where it can be accessed for the restoration, if needed.
Good luck with this. Here in the USA, we are about to lose our last original overnight steamboat, the Delta Queen, as a multimillionaire wants to buy it, and move it to Florida to make it into a hotel. The salt water will destroy the hull, and the location is in Hurricane Alley. Currently she is preserved in Chattanooga in near-operating condition (the engines are turned over occasionally and steam systems kept in order by mostly volunteers). There doesn't seem to be anything we can do to change this. www.steamboats.org
The general public does not seem to care much about history anymore.
T'
David D.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:36 pm:

Raise money to buy it.only real chance it has.There must be a unknown reason,like something hidden or other wise unknown that the church folkes dont want it saved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:39 pm:

Here is a little inspiration. The beautiful 200 year old Dresden Cathedral was completely destroyed in an Allied bombing raid in February 1945 during the last days of the War in Europe. Under Communist rule, it stayed in ruins in East Germany for 50 years, but when the wall came down in the 90's, plans were made to rebuild it using as much of the remaining rubble as possible. It was completed in 2005. Note the darker bricks denoting where the original bricks were used. Goes to show that nothing is impossible. Good luck. Jim Patrick




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:57 pm:

PS. I would think that, the first step would be to clean up the site, preserving any usable building materials such as unbroken bricks, and tiles and structural embellishments such as window frames, doors, trim, steep parts, pews, ceiling beams, decorative mouldings, rafters, etc. Then crews of volunteers put to work cleaning the bricks of mortar and pulling nails and repairing wood parts, then organizing and cataloging said parts in a warehouse until the ground under the church is stabilized with concrete and pilings. Once all that is done, construction can begin using as much of the original materials as possible, using the original plans, with the rest of the building materials matched to the original material as much as possible. Good luck. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 02:58 pm:

Oops. That should be "steeple", not "steep".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 06:09 pm:

Jim and others,

I think the church wants a coffee lounge and a social hall not a Cathedral. That is the shame of it-the temporary Catheral is basically going to be a glorified cardboard box.

Sadly they have a nibble in there at the moment taking down the steeple tower so that rather than taking it apart piece by piece all the carved limestone sections and shaped window arches etc are being destroyed.

An article was written by the stone masons guild not long ago saying it was fully rebuildable but that if they started to demolish it this way the cost would become prohibitve to rebuild.

David Dewey summed it up in one "The general public does not seem to care much about history anymore."

The good news is those of us who want to keep it are SLOWLY gaining a voice so we need to keep signing petitions and writing letters


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 03:29 pm:

That's ashame Alex. The squeaky wheel gets the oil, but if the local folks who care are overruled by those that don't then the opportunity will be lost forever and who do you suppose will complain the most about the loss of their beautiful church as they sit in their new pre-fabbed aluminum church? You got it. The silent majority who stood by and said and did nothing. Jim Patrick

PS. My before and after pictures of the Dresden Cathedral were only meant as an inspiration that, even in the face of impossible odds, anything can be accomplished through the strong will and determination of a united community. They just have to care.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

Alex

Thanks for keeping this thread alive and I hope you are getting stuck in down there at a local level. It does look as though the support for restoration is gaining momentum. I'm still contributing to news stories which is about as much as I feel I can offer from here. This is something that anyone who feels they'd like to contribute can easily do, from anywhere - hence this post!

Jim Patrick - thanks for quoting Dresden Cathedral - I have just used it as an example of what can be done that Christchurch people can be inspired by, under the name "Ye Gods". I hope Stuff shows it. In the past I have used other examples that I've actually seen in Germany (especially in Frankfurt) but the Dresden example is very appropriate, so thank you.

John Stokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

Oooopps
See the latest news at http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6821176/Cera-recommended-demolition?commen t_msg=posted#post_comment


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 05:40 am:

Well said John.

Ps when will you be standing for office?

When the red zoners have forgotten their troubles and the city is rebuilt then they will regret a decision to destroy the Cathedral.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 08:33 am:

There are certain thing that describe an area. Some are comercial,some are religious, and some are unexplainable.
The Hollywood sign or the Empire State building are examples -the Citgo sign in Boston is another - the old man in the mountain in NH that fell is another
(I fell sorry for the kids that will never see it in person!)

The things of history are the roots of our existence and describe what we are today.
If we ignore where we came from or choose to forget we become self centered and self important.

I am currently in China and am amazed that most
of the young don't have any clue about Chinese history and how much was lost during the cultural revolution.
It is truly sad!!

My ownership - no responsibility to preserve - the 1919 model T I am in the care of -is truly a responsibility.
Every time I drive it I am honoring Henry for his vision, the workers that changed the world, Mr Alm the first owner, and my dad that insisted that it remain as close to orrigional as possible.

Call me crazy but I am have a operating valuable part of history that is priceless.
Likewise the Christ Church Cathedral is more than a pile of stones or a building - it is the sole of the city.

The bean counters -i.e. MBA's and uninformed have screwed up many companies and towns because they don't understand that here is something beyond a few dollars.

OK I'll get off the soap box!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 01:51 pm:

Fred,
You are so right! I am lucky to be the caretaker of more than one legacy--my model A, that I slid down the fenders when I was 4 and am the second owner (and I remember the first one). Barney, a barn survivor, and soon to be 100, and my 16 touring which slept disassembled in a Sacramento barn for some 30 years.
We are but temporary holders of such things, and if we do not do our duty, then there will be no future caretakers.
I hope someone wakes up about the Cathedral, but already much original fabric has been destroyed by the demolition folks.


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