Headlight sockets - which way?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Headlight sockets - which way?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 04:22 pm:

I picked up all the parts necessary to convert my headlights back to original (someone had installed sealed beams).
So now I'm putting the headlights back together and find out the sockets can be installed two ways:



There is an arm for the screw and spring adjustment protruding from the socket at right angles dividing it into a larger portion and a smaller one.

Which end (the longer or the shorter) holds the bulb and which end protrudes out the back of the headlight shell ??

Also, does the screw actually adjust the beam up and down or does it just hold the socket? I assume that the right/left adjustment is made by moving the whole headlight shell on the arm?

Thanks in advance
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 05:08 pm:

I believe the long end goes inside the shell, as the screw, with a spring on it, needs to be able to move the socket in and out. The screw head goes against the tab, then the spring, then the shell.

The adjustment is to focus the beam. As the filament moves in and out, it reaches the perfect point in the reflector. You can easily fine-tune it one evening by shining on your garage door from about 20 feet away.

Up and down, and side to side adjustments are made by brute force.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

The bulb goes into the end of the socket with the deeper slot, the spring is behind the socket retainer bar, and that screw will do a bit of focus on the lamp. But not real well.

The main focus is bending the lamp post after you have the car up on tires, aired, and ready to roll....set the lamps per the Ford Service instructions.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Boothroyd on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

I found that all of the repros, while very well made, had an issue with the threaded hole in the brass tab not lining up with the screw that enters from the outside of the headlight shell.
I was able to remove the new inside parts and put them into the original bases, using the original brass tab.
Took some doing, but they work fine now.
I also soldered a wire from the socket to the inside of the headlight shell.
No flickering headlights any more!

Regards,

Steve Boothroyd


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

OK, it appears from Peter's text and Dan's second picture that the bulb goes in the shorter end and the longer end protrudes out the back of the headlight shell.

Steve: no problems with the tab lining up with the screw on these. One was a repo and one is NOS

BTW Dan, on the sockets I have, the slots on both ends have an identical depth.

Thanks for the great info guys

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

I found that the repros had the tab rotated 90 degrees from the originals. This orients the filaments and thus the light beam in a vertical plane instead of horizontal. The result was 2 narrow beams of light in front of the car instead of a wide beam. Also changing from bright to dim moved the beams sideways instead of up or down. I fixed this by drilling a new hole for the adjustment screw at the 12 0'clock position and using snips to cut a new slot in the tube that the lamp holder fits into. I plugged the original adjustment holes with pan head screws. I can actually see where I'm going now :-)

Regards,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:31 pm:

Bob...The originals came both ways, tab in line with the pins and at 90 degrees. One is for the screw beside the socket and you guessed it, the other is for the screw above the socket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

This link shows the problem I had. Pics 4 and 6 show the the vertical beam (from one lamp) in the bright and dim modes with the wrong bulb holder orientation.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/253875.html?1323994780

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

Layden, I didn't know that. I'm prepared for both now. :-)

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - 10:55 pm:

So Bob, I guess from your description the filaments must be in a horizontal plane to work correctly?

If so than the tab must be at a 90 deg angle to the pins for headlight shells that have the adjusting hole on the top. It follows that the tab should be in line with the pins if the adjusting hole in the headlight shell is on the side.

Have I got that right or have I messed it up?

One more question... does it make a difference which filament is on the top? My bulbs (50/32 CP) have two filaments, one is straight across and one is "V" shaped. Since the bulb can go in the socket one way or 180 deg the other, either filament can be on top/bottom.

Never realized there was so much to know about headlight sockets!

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Schuh, yes the filaments need to be horizontal. Look closely at the lamp and you will see that one filament is centered in the bulb. This is the bright filament. Place the lamp in the holder so that the "Dim" filament is below the bright filament. You may have to reverse the position of the plug to get the filaments lit in the correct order.
When you get them installed check the aim against a wall at night. With the switch in the "on" position, turn the adjusting screw to focus the beam. The beam should be lower with the switch in the "Dim" position. I found it easier to unplug one light while focusing and aiming the other.

Regards,
Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 09:31 am:

I forgot to mention it, but the lenses need to be installed in order to focus and aim the beams.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 09:37 am:

Bob

Excellent! Thanks for the clear explanation !!

schuh

PS I looked at your info and our T's have the same color scheme!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 09:42 am:

We both have good taste :-)

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, March 22, 2012 - 12:03 pm:

Note the excellent photo Dan posted showing the adjusting screw with the cotterpin installed. If you buy a reproduction, it will not have this hole. The original screws were nickel plated brass, except for 15-16 I would assume. What I did is buy some stainless screws, and using one of Don Langs drill gauges, was able to drill that hole. Not easy to do, but it worked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 02:58 am:

Is anyone else having trouble installing the reproduction sockets ? I realise that they are meant to be a tight fit but I should not have to drive it in with a hammer should I ?

The walls of the socket seem to be thicker than original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:52 am:

Schuh, do you have the 90 deg plugs on the back of the headlights? Seems to me the repro sockets,, when mounted, cause the 90 deg plug to point sideways instead of down as they should. I went through this years ago and it seems I had a time of it. Had to modify the socket.

Robbie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 10:00 am:

Hey Robbie

No, don't have the 90 deg plugs. Are they period correct for the 1915?

Gavin

One of my sockets was a repo and I don't remember having any problems slipping it in the shell. The shells can get a little beat up, does it look like the socket hole has been deformed?

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - 05:02 pm:

Schuh, The "proper" headlamps for a '15 have the adjusting screw hole above the socket. MOST T electric headlamps have the adjusting screw hole to one side of the socket. The '15 also used a 90 degree elbow plug into the back of the socket. '15 T owners run into problems when they put the new socket into the proper '15 bucket, all the pins are rotated 90 degrees because of the location of the adjusting screw is different. Then when they install the elbow fitting into the socket, it is sticking sideways instead of down like it is supposed to.
Some '15 owners just use later headlamps or later style plugs to keep it simple.
Other minor differences for the '15 include that the small area around the socket is rounded whereas most of the thirteen million cars that followed had a small flat spot around the socket. The overall shape of the '15 bucket is also slightly larger (more bulge). That difference is tough to spot because it is a slight difference.
I don't know just how long this early version of the lamp was used. Earliest '15s used a few different lamps. Most '15s used this "common" '15 lamp. It was used through much of '16 and I think also some of the earliest '17s. Somewhere around '17 and '18 another odd headlamp was used. It had a rounded back with the socket down lower much like some of the earliest '15s. But I don't know enough about the differences there to even try to explain what I think I might know.
There has been a lot of confusion around the early headlamps for as long as I have been in this hobby. What I was taught forty years ago, was all wrong, and popular belief has changed around several times since.
If a really good article has ever been published showing the real progression of T electric headlamps, I would love to read it, several times. If one hasn't, it would be a great thing to be done. at this point, I am not entirely sure of what I think I know (most of which I didn't go into here because I really don't want to continue errors in popular belief).

For the late'15/early'16 centerdoor I had years ago, I had two original 90 degree elbow fittings and the lamps with the adjusting hole above the socket. My fix was to use reliable repro sockets which I cut the adjusting tab off of. They were snug enough to stay put and I never had any trouble with them. I then simply put a slotted screw in the screw hole for visual effect. It looked right, and worked fine.
If the socket was too loose in the bucket, I would solder it into place. Tin the bucket side first so as to not overheat the socket itself.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 10:42 am:

My 15 has the fork mounted electric headlights, right angle plugs, and new repro sockets that cause the right angle plugs to point to the side rather than the bottom. I haven't got around to creating a fix for that yet. Has anyone else found an easy way to deal with that problem so I'm not reinventing the wheel, so to speak?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 05:56 pm:

Wayne,
for your continuing education I have had a closer look at my forked electric lights.

Although I am in NZ and theoretically these lights should be of Canadian manufacture, I cannot guarantee this as I bought them as parts.

You will note that 2 have the screw above the connection (ok, below in this case, I assume that someone has misassembled them) and 3 have the screw to the side.

I have checked them all with my profile gauge and all are exactly the same profile ( apart from a ding or 2).

T 15 forked headlights 002 compressed.jpg
T 15 forked headlights 001 compressed.jpg
T 15 forked headlights 003 compressed.jpg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris (Napier, NZ) on Thursday, November 22, 2012 - 06:13 pm:

Bump, as my last post didn't go to the top


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 01:07 am:

One thing I know. I will NEVER know all I would like to about model T headlamps. The ones that interest me, in your photo, is the fork mount lamps with the adjusting hole to the side of the socket.
I have been told, but have not seen proof, that some '10s Chevrolets used a fork mount headlamp that is very similar to a Ford headlamp. I have seen that the rim from a Chevrolet will fit the Ford headlamp bucket. I know that there were several other marques that also used similar lamps.
I know from old photos and discussions on this forum that cars in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand used fork mounted headlamps later than U.S. cars did. But I have not seen anything definitive about exactly how late that was.
I have also, of late, been perusing a large number of old photos (thank you, Jay!) looking for details about changes during early 1915 and '16 Ford Ts. Unfortunately, I am finding more questions than answers in all this. I have even found at least three old photos of 1915 Ts with Prestolite acetylene tanks on them. One of my previous comments that a dealer could have done that for a "picky customer" still stands. (But who knows?)
The headlamps for Ts from about 1920 to about July '25 seems so simple. My guess would be that from anything originally sold as a '15 through about 1918, nearly a couple dozen distinctly different headlamps were used on Fords between U.S. and Caanada.
With all the #### family #### that I have to deal with, I really cannot become the headlamp expert. I would like to. I would really like to have lengthy discussions with someone that can and wants to become that expert. What I really need is to simply find out what matching pair of affordable headlamps can I get that would truly be correct for my April-ish 1915 runabout. I went through this when I restored my late'15/early'16 centerdoor over fifteen years ago. I was never satisfied with my research then, and that is haunting me now.

Gavin,
Are there any markings on your lamps to help identify them? Or at least the country of origin? A couple of those lamps would look great on my runabout, but I can pretty much prove they are not correct for my April-ish '15 U.S. built car. Rats. I passed up buying a set a couple months back because I want to try to make my car as close to right as I reasonably can.
Thank you for posting these pictures!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 09:20 am:

Wayne

To add to the confusion on forked lamps, many aftermarket brands were made too, to fit Ford and other cars back in the early switch from gas lamps on std forks, to electric buckets on std forks, the fork bracket was the norm on early cars.








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 09:30 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 09:56 am:

Wayne wrote:

"If a really good article has ever been published showing the real progression of T electric headlamps, I would love to read it....."

Wayne looking at your posts, it seems like your the guy to write that article !!

Good info everyone!

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 10:44 am:

Dan is there any way you could move the first picture you posted down. I would like a view of the tail lamps. In pictures of the early 15's there is a "ford" picture that shows a coupe with a very odd looking tail lamp and I it looked close to one of those side lamps pictured.
Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 10:49 am:

I recently picked up a set of fork mounted electric lamps that fit the Ford forks. They have beveled rims and a push button lock on the rear that releases the rim - I was under the impression that these might be Chevrolet or an after market lamp - be nice to know !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, November 24, 2012 - 11:03 am:

John

Here is the rest of that page showing oil tail lamps,





G. Bascom Boston, MA , 1916


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