Engine - Ball Joint Will Not Meet In The Middle

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine - Ball Joint Will Not Meet In The Middle
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 11:26 am:

Variation of the how many _______ does it take to change a light bulb joke. Here is my father, sons, and I putting the engine into the T yesterday.



Engine mounts all line up, ball joint has a gap as shown below, a big one. This was discussed in http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/176113.html but topic no longer allows me to reply due to post vintage I assume, so starting new thread.



Facing this issue and want to make sure that I understand the suggested solution, before I go breaking/bending things that should not be broken or bent. I am certain that my u-joint is engaged as I can rotate the wheels when turning the crank. So, again to confirm I have this understood

Loosen the spring perches out almost all the way
Loosen the spring hangers out almost all the way
Pull the ball joint in so to fully engage
Bolt the ball joint flange tight
Tighten spring hangers
Tighten spring perches


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, Mostly in Dearborn on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 12:09 pm:

You have a triangle with two fixed legs. The rear spring is the only adjustment. Put some weight on the rear crossmember and the gap will close. In my case, I stood on it and pressed against a beam in my garage while my son bolted it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 04:00 pm:

There is no body on that chassis. Therefore it will sit high in the center. The driveshaft is low in the back because of the rear spring. If you weight it down, it will pull up tight.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 04:34 pm:

Brian, your rear axle assembly is deformed. There is a huge bump on one side of the centre. If you send me yours I will ship a proper one to you. I cannot guarantee that I can get it to look as good as yours though.

Glad to help.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

LOL. And THAT is making it sit high in the center. Dang, should have seen that as the solution. Looking for an odd shaped box in order to accommodate the huge bump... Aus Air should get it to you quickly, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Susanne on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

Not only that, it is obviously broken... you DO you see that dog-legged chunk of steel poking out the top? Something obviously cut loose, and rammed this through the stretched, oblong, and as such thinner ballooned left 1/2.

It'll probably leak from there, running that differential dry, and cause no ends of problems, like making the poor car run MUCH slower...

I'll second Allan's offer - and I'm not even down under! Heck, I might even throw some glossy black house paint on it, make this one as shiny! (Where's that old paint brush I had??)

;)

Happy to be of assistance!
Sus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 11:05 pm:

Alone,you can use a rachet strap to pull the crossmember down towards the axle .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Monday, March 26, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

You could use longer bolts and just pull it in. If you don't use any more force than to just tighten it up you should be fine. This isn't a major problem, it just gonna take some fiddlin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan, Powell WY on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 10:32 am:

I used a combination of a ratcheting strap, and long bolts, to progressively draw the driveline into the ball. Thank you for the advice and is fixed

Strap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 01:38 pm:

I run into that some times and I use a come along from the rear axle to the front. That always pulls the U joint right in. ;Make it easy don't fight it. I am afraid if you use longer bolts to pull it in you might strip the treads in the Oil Pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 03:10 am:

Fixed is good! For future reference, Dave's concern is a good one. Another sometimes problem, is that if you put grease into the U-joint connection like you should, they sometimes airlock the U-joint back. It just takes a little pressure and a few minutes usually to push the air and a little grease out. Of course, the first time I put one together, I put way too much grease in it and had to pull the rear end back so I could dig some grease out with a screwdriver. Never did that again.
Congratulations!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan, Powell WY on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:29 am:

I should have noted that I tightened the bolts just as if they were lugs on a wheel, alternating diagonally, counting turns on each etc. But I take your points for the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:33 am:

On my 24 Fordor, i loosened the rear spring perch nuts at the backing plate and after i had everything on i re-tightened them.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan, Powell WY on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

As noted above, I got everything bolted and sucked together fine. However, I had sent out the Ruckstell shifter components to be coated. Got them back and needed to install, so obviously the bolts had to come off for this.

Before I started this process, I could take the crank and spin the engine/wheels

I restrapped the axle as shown, to avoid the ball popping backwards and to avoid the thread stress that Dave Huson mentions above.

Loosened the ball cap bolts, installed the shifter and the brake light bracket. Got everything back tight. Pumped some grease into the ujoint.

Gave the crank a half turn to distribute the grease a bit. The engine stuck, tight. As in would not budge. No play in the crank. First thought was something really bad happened in the engine or rear end. Grabbed a wheel, installed it on the rear axle, spun fine. No bad noises there. The head on my engine was only loosely bolted on, so pulled the head off. Valves/Pistons looked to be where the pistons should be. So probably had not jumped time, busted a gear etc.

So, thought I had better undo what I had done to retrace my steps. I unbolted the ball cap again, with the straps still installed. Now the engine turns again. Whew

I then bolted the ball cap, without the shifter/bracket, back on, but only tightened half way. Engine still spins; wheels coorespondingly spin.

So here is the question before I tighten it all the way again; what the heck could be binding, that was not binding before I put the shifter on. I have visualized this in my head 50 different ways and cannot come up with a realistic scenario that would cause a half-turn-then-bind situation. I mean, everything I was adding was outside the ball cap, not inside where it could bind. Before I try this again, does anyone have ideas as to potential culprits I should watch for?

P.S. Another "grabbing at straws" thought I had was that the pin was binding on the caps, or the joint was binding on the cup. I removed them and still was bound up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Is your Ruckstell shifter rod connected when you pull the ball joint together? If it is maybe somehow its misfitted so you are putting the Ruckstell in a bind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan, Powell WY on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 02:28 pm:

No, it (the rod) is disconnected. But good thought. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

Odd happening. Perhaps the U-joint is stuck?

Had issue once of a new repro U-joint not going all the way into the driving plate sq. hole and needed to file off the sharp new edges of the male part, and reshape the flats a bit to make it smooth fit.

Seems to be U-joint related, maybe the U-joint binds in the housing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

The lower threads are easy to strip. It's best to get everything up first as Dave Huson says. If you should strip the threads, in some cases you can use a longer bolt and grind a nut to fit behind the flange (that would be toward the engine side of the flange) on the crankcase, and save it that way, but it would be better to not have stripped it to begin with.

Is it possible that the universal joint was not in the socket in back of the transmission when you pulled it up the first time?

If I understand what you did, you did not actually pull the ball joint back to install the shifter, but merely took out the top bolts and bolted up the shifter. That should not cause the engine to bind. Did you do anything while doing this which might put it into gear, or put transmission brake or the parking brakes on? The only thing I can think of would be the grease in the U joint. But in my experience, you cannot get too much grease in the u joint. And grease is soft, and should not cause anything to bind.

I think if it were mine, I would continue to tighten the bolts a little at a time, and then check the crank to see if you can still turn the engine. Do this until it is tightened all the way.

Another thing to check would be whether it turns when you are in neutral. If it does turn in neutral but not when in gear, then you know the problem is behind the high speed clutch.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Sullivan, Powell WY on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 11:17 am:

>>>If I understand what you did, you did not actually pull the ball joint back to install the shifter, but merely took out the top bolts and bolted up the shifter

No, I strapped the axles so the UJoint/axle would not shift back (the problem that started this thread. Removed the bolts - all 4 - from the ball cap. Put the upper and lower DS sides bolts through the brake light bracket, I progressively tightened the ball cap, tightening the bottom 2 bolts until I had enough thread showing to engage the top 2 nuts through the Ruckstell shifter. Then I alternated all 4 until tight.

I undid everything and started over last night. I did the same process, but every X number of turns I checked the crank. I could turn the crank, and the wheels would spin as well. I did this until there was about 1/16 space between the cap and the crankcase (the thickness of a cork gasket lets say). Once I tightened past that threshold, ie. fully tightened down, I could not longer spin the engine/wheels. I know that "something" shifted forward at that point, as grease compressed out the grease cap threaded hole at this point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

Brian

Any success yet?

Off chance thought, is the U-joint riveted to the driveshaft?

Maybe the U-joint is being pulled off the front driveshaft bushing and then impinges inside the torque tube ball housing when the cap is fully tight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Brian,recheck the distance settings between your front drive shaft bushing and pinion.


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