Just bought a '15 T roadster that was made in Canada and has a Canadian number. Is there a directory where I can check the date of manufacture of the car? I see the American made numbers but no others. The number is: C3xxx8.
Thanks
Here we have something, blatantly stolen from the forum!
Don't trust the engine numbers from Canada, only the casting date, I have 4x early 1916 engines, all built with in 3 weeks of each other and that the numbers vary for more than 10,000 and anything in between.
Hi Kerry,
Am I missing something? Seems to be the engine number is the only accurate way to date the build of the car. The casting date only tells you when the engine was cast-not actually when it went it a car. It must be the serial number that correctly dates the car? As a block could easily lie around for several months it could be the difference between one year and the next if the casting date is relied upon?
Christopher,
Hap put this list on the forum for me several years ago. I didn't (still don't) know how so I snail mailed it to him. I live a few miles east of Ford Canada.
The numbers up until July 1919 are obviously rounded off.
While I was at Ford I also got a copy of their listing of paint colours I will try to pass on.
Steve
Alex,
That's right, if we had good numbers and dates from Canadian production working for per day, weekly or mth, but all we have is calender and fiscal year numbers, early teens, if using engine numbers to date then we would have more questions, like you say, a block sitting in storage for several mths with lets say mid march 16 casting, and a engine number more than 10300 higher turns up with a casting date of several days difference, would it end up in the model change of the fiscal year, so what do we call it, we know that march to july is a safe date to make it a brass, but with a much higher engine number but early cast date, can we still call it the up date for the fiscal change of 1917? Safer to work with the casing dates.
Steve, thanks for sharing it! I have sent it to a number of T friends too, and it sure is nice to have the information, so thanks!
Posted for Steve Miller -- Canadian 1926-27 Model T paint colors:
I'm 99% sure Steve obtained these from the Ford of Canada Archives. Note the 11/19/70 date on the 1927 paint colors. I will let him confirm or correct that 99% estimate.
Thanks Steve for sharing those!
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Thanks Hap,
Yes. These were obtained from Ford Canada Archives. They were prepared by the late Herman L. Smith
Is there any infromation left in the Ford of Canada Archives? Do they still exist? All sorts of rumours about where they are or what happened to them.
As hobbyist living in a car that received predominantly Canadian cars I would be good to know a LOT more about them...
Ps Thanks for explaining as you did above Kerry.
Alex,
Ford Canada Archives have apparently re-opened.
I am hoping to get there in the next few weeks.
12 kilometres west.
Alex
This letter is why I am not hopeful
For Alex – yes there are still quite a few Ford of Canada documents available. The primary locations are:
1. The University of Windsor FORD MOTOR COMPANY OF CANADA, LIMITED
1904-1971
Accession Number 97-002
Located at:
http://web4.uwindsor.ca/units/archive/ford.nsf
On the left side of the page it has links to all the following areas:
• Ford Motor Co. of Canada Ltd.
• Contents
• Accounts
• Assignments
• Cheques
• Custom Drawback Claims
• Ledgers
• Letters&Memos
• Letters Patent Incorporating the Walkerville Waggon Co. Ltd.
• Machine Tools Inventory
• Monthly Satements
• Notes Falling Due
• Letters Patent
• Rulings and Costs
• Salary List
• Salary Report
• University Archives
Some of those have nothing of interest to the Model T (i.e. before the T) and others could hold nuggets that could unlock a mystery you have been looking for. I would especially like to find out more what is in the accounts receivable ledgers at: http://web4.uwindsor.ca/units/archive/ford.nsf/inToc/FAA81F031EE1CAA485256A3F007 37304?OpenDocument
Accounts
Accession Number 97-002
Dates of Creation: 1908-1912 and 1923-1928. - Extent of Descriptive Unit: Textual material. - Scope and Content: The files contain the ledgers of the account balances of the clients of the Company.
Account Balances 1908-1912 Box 2 File 50
1923-1928 Box 2 File 51
Expense Accounts
Date of Creation: 1898. - Extent of Descriptive Unit: Textual Material. - Scope and Content: The file contains the ledgers of the expenses of the Walkerville Wagon Company.
Expense Accounts 1898 Box 3 File 58
Invoice Accounts
Dates of Creation: 1912-1913. - Extent of Descriptive Unit: Textual Material. -Scope and Content: The file contains the ledgers for the invoice accounts of the Company
Invoice Accounts 1912-1913 Box 2 File 52
The overview page to those archives says:
Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited was founded in 1904 for the purpose of manufacturing and selling Ford automobiles in Canada and the British Empire. The Ford Motor Company in Detroit transferred the patent and selling rights to the Walkerville Wagon Company, in order to avoid the tariff rates for non-British Empire countries. The Company was originally known as the Walkerville Wagon Works, and was located in Walkerville, Ontario (now incorporated within Windsor, Ontario). The Company President Gordon McGregor convinced a group of investors to invest in Henry Ford's new automobile, which was being produced across the river in Detroit.
On August 17, 1904, the Ford Motor Company was founded in Walkerville, Ontario. The Company had gained all Ford patent rights and selling privileges to all parts of the British Empire, except Great Britain and Ireland. The Model C, the first car to be produced in Canada, rolled out of the factory in late September 1904. The Company could produce two cars at a time and in its first full year of production, the Company was able to produce 117 automobiles. The Company's first export sales were to Calcutta, India. The Company continued to grow and prosper and is still an important manufacturing enterprise in Windsor, as well as the rest of the country.
With the growth in car sales after World War II, Ford of Canada decided to move its head office and build a new assembly plant in Oakville, Ontario. The new Oakville assembly plant was opened in 1953. In order to meet ever increasing demand, the Company opened a new assembly plant in Talbotville, Ontario in 1967.
The Ford of Canada papers are a rich resource for research into the founding of Canada's automotive identity and a valuable source of historic information for a variety of people, including local, legal and business historians, as well as those with a general interest in automobiles. The scope of the collection includes account balances, cheques, customs drawback claims, expense accounts, general ledgers, invoice accounts, monthly statements, notes falling due, parts ledgers, patents, payroll and customs rulings and costs. Researchers who are interested in consulting other sources of information on the history of Ford Motor Company and Ford of Canada are encouraged to visit the Ford of Canada and the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village web sites.
Note the customs information on the importation of Model C chassis was obtained from there – a big thank you to them.
2. A second location for Ford of Canada information is the Benson Ford Archives. Many things are cross filed in both Ford of Canada and Ford of USA. I.e. agreements, orders from one company to the other etc.
3. A third location is the Ford of Canada Archives located at Oakville, Ontario. It has a very limited staff and to answer one question took about 6 months. Dedicated individual but only part time and very over tasked. I am hoping to locate some folks that are close enough to Toronto that they could volunteer to do research there. That would take approval from the company etc. but I believe it is worth looking into. If anyone is near there and interested in helping with this project, please let me know – an e-mail would be best. Please put Model T in the subject – just click on my name at the top of any of my postings and my e-mail address is the third line down or send me a private message via the forum.
4. There are several books that have helpful information about what Ford of Canada did. “In the Shadow of Detroit” has numerous good clues sprinkled throughout the book see: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+rober ts+in+the+shadow+of+detroit&source=bl&ots=8aP3OYrq9i&sig=Dqf-ga3FnFvIs-59Xwpdoee WB6c&hl=en&ei=8PSiTdqjJ4abtwfxuPiJAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi= 2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false The note section in the back has multiple leads for additional sources on what was said in the book – very helpful. The book “Amercian Business Abroad – Ford on Six Continents” contains helpful information and if you wait for a good price – they are available for under $25 dollars (I think I found one for $6 and ordered it – but I had been looking at much higher prices saying … not yet). “Ford of Canada – 100 Years together” also has a few helpful leads and information on the T but covers the history of Canada more than the details of the car.
5. Folks that have previous documents supplied by the Ford of Canada Historical department. If we could have folks that have earlier document Herman Smith, Sandra Notarianni and other Archivist from Ford of Canada provided could scan and send those to me (why me? -- because I am slowly working to gather additional data to hopefully add to Bruce’s Encyclopedia in the future ) I am trying to compile that information to make it available to others.
6. The fossil record – there are several nice Canadian produced cars that can help document information. Again, as we share information we all gain from it.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Numbers stamped on the block by the water outlet:
Canadian.
July 31, 1914 16500 July 31, 1915 37500
July 31, 1916 70000.
John,
The only way that I know of is to ask the part time historian to take a look at invoices.
I came across a car with a March of '13 engine cast, the ground off Made in USA, Canada head, etc...and there was a letter with it from a previous Ford Canada historian that said it was actually an August '13 build and he had it down to the day as he had been able to look it up. He also said in the letter that such a lag was 'reasonable' for the time. While early at Walkerville, this said at the time a 5 month inventory was not considered strange.
George,
You mentioned an existing letter from one of the previous Ford of Canada historians for a 1913. Is it practical for you to try and contact the individual and ask them for a copy of that letter along with the casting date and serial number (last three can be XXX)of his car? Also the body manufacture and body number if there is one. That is the type of information I mentioned in paragraph 5 above -- items that a Ford of Canada historian has already documented but that we do not have a copy of what they documented.
It may not be practical if you do not recall the name of the owner or if the car has changed hands several times and you do not know who has it know. But if you think you can easily obtain some of that information it would be great to document it.
Respectfully requested,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Fellows, we can chase details of Canadian production and make the picture clearer, but I believe it will never be an accurate picture.
Kerry, the use of casting dates to date a car is frought with problems too. At a clearing sale of a huge collection of T parts near Naracoorte a few years back was a collection of 1911 bits, enough to make a good start on a restoration. Key to the date was a July 1911 casting date on the engine block. It was a closed valve chamber block with the lip at the rear of the water jacket, all correct for 1911. However, clearly stamped on the block was a four digit engine number with the C prefix for Canada. This meant it had to be assembled after the Canadian plant was commissioned in mid 1913.
A possible explanation might be that when the Canadian plant was set up, engine blocks we know were cast in the US, were shipped to Canada. If this block was at the back of the stocks in The US, it would be last loaded and hence first off in Canada.
On this example, your suggestion that the casting date should be used to date a motor would make good sense, as 1911 blocks are scarce. However, to do so would be historically inaccurate.
For what it's worth.
Allan from down under.
I agree Allan but how can we believe early numbers as well, yearly engine numbers in what records are published are rounded off and car numbers, well!!
Look at Chris langs posting. the list states from actual production records.
I think it's un-factial from the get go,
1908, 458 model T's, well that would be 150 odd more than the US, when truth be known Canada made 'no' T's in 1908 the publication has tried to give fiscal year figures but correct me if I'm wrong, the early, for what there is in canadian records, are in calender years.
Until someone finds engine numbers to match production numbers, I still think casting sets closest to a year model.
Lots of good information. I really appreciate all the comments made here on the forum. Looks like I may just have to be happy with the casting date on the block. Since I'm not trying to write a history book for intense Model T study I'll settle for that. Thanks a bunch for all the comments---very helpful.
Hap,
Your post of 9:44am. It sounds like the information at the university is mostly of the business of Ford Canada, not the production of cars (eg. production changes).
Most posters seem to be looking for production information
Steve
Steve,
You are correct that most of the holdings at the Univ of Windsor are related to financial transactions. Most of which will not be of any help in our search for more information about the T – such as the weekly pay for different employees. As a result almost all Model T researches avoided looking in those types of financial ledgers until a Model T owner who happened to also have a large interest in financial history starting looking to see what he could find at the Benson Ford Archives. It turns out a lot of it is not very useful - employee salaries, payments for iron ore etc. But he also ran across the USA Accounts Receivable Ledgers. While very incomplete as it is missing more of the volumes than it contains, it has the shipping date and amount paid for each car (1904 to very early 1915 models) and where it was sent (usually a dealer etc.). Still not very helpful. But it also contains the engine serial number of the cars. Suddenly it becomes much more interesting to folks that want to do a more accurate job of dating when cars were produced and shipped. For folks with cars produced after early 1915 – they are of little interest – their car will not be listed. For folks with a car with an actual shipping document available serial numbers 1,119 to approximately number 70,750 it isn’t very helpful as the same data along with many additional details is available on their shipping document. But for anyone with a car in between those two serial numbers (as well as the cars 1903-1909 before those serial numbers) that provides a great clue on when their car was shipped – if it is listed. And if it is not listed it gives the owner a very reasonable date range that it most likely would have been shipped. Oh, who was that person who was a Model T owner and interested in financial history? That was and still is Professor Trent Boggess. We owe him a big thank you for sharing his research so freely with us.
So I am optimistic that the Univ of Windsor Ford of Canada archives may contain some information that will help us better document when Ford of Canada shipped cars, when they started casting their own engine blocks (purchases of engine blocks from Ford USA would stop around then or at least decrease during the time of overlap) and items like that. It is not a replacement for the Ford of Canada Company archives. I believe they contain a lot of good information also. But it should add additional pieces to the puzzle of what Ford of Canada did or at least “likely did.”
And if there is anyone in the Windsor, Canada area that would be willing to do some checking for us, please send me an e-mail or private message. I would recommend looking for the Accounts Receivable Ledgers for payments for automobiles or some similar item. Items of current interest: When did Ford of Canada start casting their own engine blocks? What years/time frames did Ford of Canada purchase bodies form which body companies. And of course which if any of the ledgers contain engine serial numbers and related dates?
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hap, I have been away for the past two weeks and only just saw this thread. Its possible Bruce Mc Calley's records show some more info than than is above.
Bruce set about tracking the engine numbers back in the early 1980's with the help of members in Canada and Australia who supplied several hundred engine numbers and casting dates as well as printed records from Ford Canada Service bulletins and Fordex booklets.
One fact that was revealed was that Ford Canada stopped assembly during the winter months. As sales were virtually zero and transport difficult in severe weather and the factory conditions harsh the employees where transferred where possible to the foundry (once it became operative).
Casting of the engine blocks were then stored until the conditions improved. This usually meant that late October/November production stopped and blocks were put away. As has been noted this meant that new blocks from the following year (Feb/ March or whenever) were machined, stamped and sent for sale first. By the time they got to the first stored ( Oct/Nov year cast blocks) they were last to be completed. The same may have applied to to the USA blocks????
Exactly when the actual Canadian foundry started making their own blocks was after the war ( going from a poor memory here) This information should be in the records but would also be on the actual blocks. Who has the earliest block with made in Canada on it? Once the Canadian blocks came on line the USA ones probably stopped ( though they might have had to suppliment stock until Canada could handle demand.
The problem with dating the engine by its casting date caused quite a long debate here in Australia many years ago when a Ford owner tried to join a Veteran Car Club. They accept cars up until december 1918. After that the cars are classed as Vintage. ( English system) The owner had a Ford with a 1918 casting date late in the year. The clubs inspectors contacted Ford Canada to establish the last number that had been assembled in 1918. Off hand I don't know what that number was they settled on but as is always the case the actual engine number not the casting date determines the date of a vehicle.
If one is purchasing a vehicle checking this fact to make sure the vehicle is actually being sold as represented and not having its date extended one year more is important ( especially if as was mentioned the vehicle is rejected as being made after the cut off date.)
One of the reasons the MTFCA Australia was originally formed was to eliminate such occurences as all Model T's qualify.
Thank you peter, WELL SAID. This debate is what i have been waiting for for most of my antique FORD involvement life.
Maybe [before i fall of the perch] i hope it can be sorted as to why what has been passed onto me [that the first ford sent to AUSTRALIA from FORD CANADA was my ''K'' FORD #2- in 1906.
Even hope i live long enough to see this debate sorted
For John and Kerry-- I think there will be some thread drift. But when I eventually finish typing up my comments on why I believe dating the car by any one single item is not the best way to date the car I will add it to this thread. I will also try and remember to send you a private message letting you know the information was posted.
For Kerry – we can believe the numbers listed by Herman L Smith and posted above were the official Ford of Canada numbers that they published. And at the same time we realize those numbers clearly are not the exact number. I.e. they didn’t stop producing the engines on an even number each year. But if an engine is listed early in those numbers or late in those numbers it can give us a guide as to a year and month range it was likely to have been produced. Wait for the longer version and hopefully it will contain enough evidence to support that comment, correct that comment, or add even more “mud” to the water.
For Bob -- I think we will be able to find additional clues to help answer your question. But would you please let us know what your question is. I think your question is, "Was Model K Ford serial number 2 the first Ford sent to Australia from Ford of Canada?" Is that the correct question?
For Peter -- I hope you had a good trip and welcome home. That letter from Ford of Canada stating what was the last serial number assembled in Canada in Calendar year 1918 is the sort of "previous Ford Canada Historian Documents" I would love to obtain scans/copies of. Some of them will obviously contain inaccuracies. But they are official inaccuracies and hopefully provide us a guide or hint to what really happened.
I look forward to working with many of you who are also interested in the Canadian history or who have bits and pieces of that history or fossil record (that would be parts or cars). I believe we will be able to clarify several items over the next few years as we work together to put the puzzle pieces into a clearer picture.
And if anyone else has some of the earlier Ford of Canada Historian letters – please scan and send them my way. We are collecting puzzle pieces to share.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
This is just a very quick contribution that hopefully is not seen as pouring cold water (winter water!) on Peter Kable's information above, regarding seasonal production.
Going by the book 'American Business Abroad - Ford on Six Continents' the comment is made that Ford of Canada's month-by-month production was not, in fact, seasonal. During the Canadian off-season (the northern winter) the domestic demand was replaced by that the southern hemisphere market - the Commonwealth countries, being the very reason for Ford of Canada's existence.
In making such a statement, we must consider that there are three elements to the process - casting date, assembly date, and sales date. We must also remember that the Ford of Canada plant was just across the river from the Ford plant in Detroit - neither were iced over for the winter!
Peter, I am going from memory here, but I think Canada began casting their own motors in 1919, and I think it was late 1919. Hap may be better able to comment on that?
Best wishes
John Stokes
The book "Faces of Ford - The Windsor Years" has a lot of great photos of the plant as it expanded in Canada and lists some interesting facts (but without references).
For example, on page 23 it has a list of dates for when Ford of Canada starting building various parts of the Model T, such as Differentials on 2/1/12, Magnetos on 5/8/13 and Motors on 5/20/13. Clearly this was not the whole motor, because it lists dates for other subcomponents that came later, such as the Engine Pans on 3/14/16 and Crank Cases on 2/14/17. It also says on page 42 that on 5/20/13 Ford Canada began to build its own motors from castings furnished by the Holmes Foundry of Port Huron Michigan.
I know we end up with more questions than answers when it comes to Canada but this is the reason why I don't believe we can get a time line of a month or an engine # to say which way is right at a fiscal model change up to july 1916.
Take the july 1916 of 70,000 and minus the yearly production numbers to july 1913, we have 2926 cars left over, now with a stretch they could have been built in the time zone we have left of several weeks back to may 20 1913 for C #1
Now 1912/13, 11,584 production, some US #'s?, but also we have 12,247 B engine numbers oct 1, 1912 to sept 30 1913 over lapping the C number production for just over 4 mths.
Ford Canada's move from Windsor to Oakville and the closing of branch assembly operations in the early 50's only compounds the mystery. I think a lot of records did not make the trip to Oakville.
(wow! has this thread drifted?)
Hi John,
I wasn't suggesting that production stopped more that the casting of engines was stepped up in anticipation of the demand that would happen when the spring weather returned. Obviously if they were madly casting blocks they had to be able to get supply of materials.
Haven't heard any more about your book where is it up to???
I think you are right about the 1919 date for Canadian beginning of casting for the motor, That's was the period I had in the back of my mind.
Question for anyone who has the Book "In the Shadow of Detroit" is there any mention of such starting dates?
John Carter, Thanks for the reference to the "Faces of Ford" book which shows sometimes information can be off. As none of the Canadian motors we see here going up to 1916 have Ford Canada but Ford with USA made removed the statement that they actually made the motors on 5/20/13 appears to be wrong.
Peter - I don't see the conflict in information yet. I think the book stated that Ford of Canada starting assembling motors on 5/20/13 with blocks made in the US. It then says they started manufacturing blocks ("Crank Cases") on 2/14/17.
HI HAP, Re your question . What i obtained many years ago [from were ? [I think the HENRY FORD MUSEUM ARCHIVES ] is a copy of what looks like NAMES ships that left from USA ?[MAYBE NEW YORK]
and beside one ship is hand written -FIRST CAR FROM FORD CANADA TO AUSTRALIA -FORD K INTO BRISBANE with a 1906 date.
Assuming my car #2 was one of the cars at the 1906 NEW YORK MOTOR SHOW ?.Was it this car that was sent ? .And could is it true that the first car sent by FORD CANADA to AUSTRALIA BE AS LATE AS 1906 ?
How far off is that John, Ford of Canada starting assembling motors on 5/20/13 with blocks made in the US.
How do we interpret that? Canada used complete engines from the US up to that date?
The following is a bit long winded and I hope it does not take this discussion off topic but sets a good picture of the beginnings of Ford of Canada.
In the year 1905, 114 cars totaled the output, 107 Model C and 107 Model B. Only sixteen employees were on the payroll this first year.
In the year 1906 Models K & N were added and a total of 101 cars were built; 54 Model C, 12 Model K and 35 Model N. Of the shipments, 76 were foreign and 25 domestic.
This year saw additions of the manufacturing equipment. Two lathes were added to the lone drill press and thus installed the nucleus of our modern machine shop. Electric power was added to run drill press, lathes and the elevator and the number of employees had gone to 25.
In 1907 Models N,R, S and K were manufactured-a total of 327 machines. 236 of these composed the domestic shipment and 91 the foreign. More machinery was installed to keep up with the increasing demand for Fords and the number of employees reached seventy.
In 1908 the Machine shop was again enlarged and Models N, R,S, S roadster and K were made. The total number of cars this year was 324; 13 model N, 4 model R, 164 Model S, 137 Model S Roadster and 6 model K. Domestic shipments were 210 and foreign 114.
1909 saw the manufacture of the first Model T This year the office building was extended and the staff increased by 2. 458 Model T cars were built, 2 Model S, 25 Model S roadsters and 1 model C. 360 of the Model T's were Touring Cars. Of the 486 cars made this year, the domestic shipments numbered 364 and the foreign 122. This increase in output necessitated the addition of a few more machines. Chassis were assembled, tested and finished and about one-half of the chassis parts that required machining were down in our own machine shop. Motors were supplied by Ford Motor Company, Detroit.
While no new buildings were added in 1910, there was a steady growth of output on Model T Cars and shipments for this year totalled 1200.
In August 1910, the frame building in the rear of the old main factory building was torn down to make room for a new three-storey concrete building with about 19,000 square feet of floor space. This building was completed in January, 1911.
The output for 1911 was double that of the preceeding year and totalled 2,400 cars. in the summer of this year the manufacturing demands crowded the company to the limit and necessitated immediate increase in facilities. To acres of land lying on the west and running to the channel bank of the river were purchased. A half-acre plot located on Sandwich Street, opposite the first factory building, was also bought as a site for the detached power plant described further on. The most pretentious building in the history of the company was now projected. It was of reinforced concrete 75x200, four floors, containing 60,000 square feet of floor space, and built out of the river to just inside the channel bank. It was started August 1, 1911, and completed in February 1912.
The office staff was now increased from twenty to fifty, and a new office building was completed in April of this year. THis building houses most of the executive, sales and clerical force.
1911 Marked a new epoch in the development of the company. The capital stock was increased from $125,000 to $1,000,000 and the name changed from The Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited, to Ford Motor Company Company of Canada, Limited.
The year 1912 saw still greater expansion. The first floor of the new building was used for chassis assembling, finishing department and stock room,second floor machine shop, third floor paint shop and forth floor bonded warehouse and repair department. The machinery in the old machine shop was transferred to the new building and more added and the old machine shop was transformed into a stock room and body equipping department. The capacity of the machine shop was increased about three times.
Two acres of land that had been purchased was now put to use, here was built a Heat treatment building containing 4,725 square feet of floor space.
6,500 cars were shipping in 1912, all Model T's, the only change being in the body design. The first cars with fore-doors were built.
It was seen that even a 6,000 output was not going to supply the demand for Ford Model T cars. Every satisfied owner, and that meant everyone that bought a Ford, was so enthusiastic over his purchase that he could not refrain from boosting and inquiries and orders coming in from all parts of the compass let to still greater preparation for 1913. More ground was needed and two more acres were purchased on the west and a four-storey reinforced concrete building erected. It was 505 x 75 and was a continuation of the 1911 building, making a total length of 705 feet.
The success of the present year [1913 sic] has been astounding even to those familiar with the Ford merits and the Ford reputation. In the first six months of the fiscal year all past records were eclipsed, the sales ammounting to more than the entire number sold during the year 1912
Kerry - Yes, that is my understanding. I haven't seen any documentation that Ford of Canada assembled motors before 5/20/13 - does anyone know of evidence to the contrary?
John,
What Alex has posted is out of a publication from the, Ford Motor Company of Canada, it has more info and photo's of the plant having it's own machine shops, milling, machining blocks, machining pistons and a foundry heat treating crankshafts etc.
This is all pre 1913.
Alex,
Great information!! I would guess it is mostly from James C. Mays' "Ford and Canada 100 years Together" or from some other source that is quoting information from the Ford of Canada archives. Although checking just before I posted this Kerry shares it is from a publication from the Ford Motor Company of Canada. Regardless -- I would love to know which book or pamphlet and the approximate date it was published etc.
One of the things I am trying to do is find multiple sources of evidence to support things. And I hope to avoid a source that referenced someone else and counting them as two sources when it is actually one source that was referenced again. It is good to not when that happens --- but not to think it is two separate items.
And just to point out how human we all are, if you look at your posting above on one line it states, "In the year 1905, 114 cars totaled the output, 107 Model C and 107 Model B." We know that 107 and 107 doesn't add up to 114. But on page 13 of James C. Mays book he has the same total number of cars for 1905, same number of Model C's and 7 rather than 107 Model B's produced in Canada. Not only does the math add up correctly the Model B was such an expensive car compared to the Model C that its sales were much lower. Additionally total Model B production is estimated around 500 (ref: serial numbers listed in the USA Accounts Receivable Ledgers [I.e. Trent's Early Ford Database] as well as chapter 4 page 23 of 63 of "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia." By the way – I hate looking back at some of my postings and finding the type-o’s etc. – but they happen.
That is also great example of how a second reference even if it is basically saying the same thing can help clarify what probably happened.
I'm looking forward to a team forming out of this and other research to help compile the puzzle pieces from multiple sources -- written, fossil, and even oral. And coming up with some likely scenarios or in some case some actual hard facts and dates on when different things occurred. Not only in Canada's production but with other items as well. And in many cases the USA, Canada, UK etc. production was related. For example in 1912 with Ford of Canada used completed engines and transmissions from the USA with the USA serial numbers. The B-series serial numbers were apparently used in production in both locations.
What an exciting time to live -- we can post our question or our piece of the puzzle and many others can say "Hey, I think I have a puzzle piece that is related to that." In many case we still are not sure if we are working on "blue sky", "blue water", or maybe even "blue colored Model Ts." But as we gain more pieces of information and figure out how they relate it should begin to make more sense.
Thank you Alex and others for sharing.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I've seen pictures of blocks being machined in 1913, but would love to see a picture of that from pre-1913. Some of the text that Alex quoted was not all pre-1913: "The success of the present year [1913 sic] has been astounding even to those familiar with the Ford merits and the Ford reputation. In the first six months of the fiscal year all past records were eclipsed, the sales ammounting to more than the entire number sold during the year 1912."
What is the name of the publication this is from? Thanks... John
Hap'
Have a look around this site.http://www.theoilspoteh.ca/books.htm
Mr. Mays autograph a copy of 100 years together for me at Ford Canada Reunion on Aug 17 2003 (3 days after the big blackout). The last 3 dates in the book had not happened yet
Steve -- that is a good web site http://www.theoilspoteh.ca/books.htm . There is actually a free e-book download there. You have to register for it but I did not get a lot of junk mail or span after doing that. Some of the photos will be familiar but some were new to me and I was glad to obtain them.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I wish I had more time to research, look at cars and parts, and type. But there is this thing called sleep, work, and the "honey do list" that are also important to accomplish.
For those who would like to review "In The Shadow of Detroit" -- about 90 percent of it (maybe more) appears to be on line now at: http://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=david+rober ts+in+the+shadow+of+detroit&source=bl&ots=8aP3OYrq9i&sig=Dqf-ga3FnFvIs-59Xwpdoee WB6c&hl=en&ei=8PSiTdqjJ4abtwfxuPiJAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi= 2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Note using the search feature can be handy. Sometimes they will omit some pages and if you need a missing page to establish a year etc. please let me know and I should be able to help with that.
From my reading of his book it appears to have many good early sources. That combined with other sources primarily Bruce's book and CD have led me to believe Ford of Canada for Model T production used only engines and transmissions that were fully assembled and the serial numbers stamped on them in the USA and that were shipped to Canada for installation at least through May 1913. Assuming a few months of over lap they easily could have been using up or using additional USA supplied engines for several more months. Note Bruce in his CD and book (page 540) has listed Ford of Canada engine #1 as produced on May 1, 1913 according to "Ford Owner & Dealer - Jun 1922 issue and also "Ford Service Bulletins -- Canada." But the Ford Archives of Canada has serial number C1 produced on May 20, 1913. I'm not worried about 19 days when it comes to 15,000,000 plus cars. Clearly May 1913 is most likely the month they started assembling the engines and transmissions in Canada using USA supplied parts. Did they also have any Canadian parts in those engines & transmissions and if so which parts?
The reference John Carter shared [John Carter on Friday, April 13, 2012 - 08:01 am:], “Faces of Ford – The Windsor Years” which does not share where the information came from in many cases indicated that “….page 42 that on 5/20/13 Ford Canada began to build its own motors from castings furnished by the Holmes Foundry of Port Huron Michigan.” That is a “statement” I would like to gain additional information about. Were the casting for the water inlet and outlet or what type of casting?
The same would be nice to know about the foundry and heat treatment workers mentioned at the Ford of Canada plant during some worker’s unrest during May 1913 see pages 101-103 “In the Shadow of Detroit”
“In the Shadow of Detroit” states on page 206 “Such problems were a concern because Ford [of Canada] had shifted in 1918 to Canadian Foundries, among them the Holmes plant in Sarnia, for engine blocks.” But on page 88 of the same book he states, “ In May 1913, for instance, the plant began machining and assembling its own engines (the castings themselves came from Michigan until 1919). Note that Bruce on page 539 of his book and his CD states, “Judging from existing Canadian engines, the
cylinder block castings were supplied from Highland
Park until about December 1919. The “Made in USA”
was ground off, and there is no “Made in Canada.”
Beginning about number C230,000 the Canadian plant
began their own casting, and the “Made in Canada”
began to appear on the side of the cylinder block. As
usual, there is some overlapping, with U.S. and Canadian
blocks being used for a time.
Bruce also in both his book on pages 540 to 546 has a listing of Canadian engine serial numbers, casting dates, and other details. Those should also be in his CD. A review of them may provide additional “fossil” evidence.
Puzzle pieces dumped onto the forum with the hopes others will add their information or help clarify some that has already been posted.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
It was 1912 that the machine shop was expanded by about 3 times and the heat treatment built the same year.
The Story of the Ford in Canada, from, Ford Motor Company of Canada has no publishing date but the only reference to 1913 is, The Ford model T production for 1913 will be 16,000.
As you can see buy production figures they didn't make that target so my conclusion is that print, late 1912 or early 1913.
Hap-firstly a correction-it was my transcribing skills that are human it was 7 Model B's not 107!
Kerry has the same book I do-its a great little publication.
This booklet is titled " The Story of the Ford in Canada" and was produced by 'Ford Motor Company of Canada Limited' Ford Ontario.
When read in context the book was fairly obviously written sometime relatively soon after the first half of the 1913 fiscal year.
It also has some good illustrations I will try and attempt to scan at no point if no one else posts them.
This is from Page 5 of the 32-page booklet, which really is a Ford of Canada promotional publication, produced in 1913 (large enough to read, small enough to attach!.
I can send scans of various pages if anyone would like them. Send me a PM.
Peter K - did you receive my private message?
John Stokes
New Zealand
Perhaps the following data will be interesting to some - if you know the source of it (1924 Canadian Service Bulletins?), please let us know - thanks.
Dates Ford Canada Began Producing Its Own Parts
(from “Faces of Ford, The Windsor Years” 1993,
references not found, data apparently from 1924)
02/01/12 Differentials
05/08/13 Magnetos
05/20/13 Motors
03/01/14 Bolts and Studs
06/01/14 Transmissions
02/22/15 Coil Box (Metal)
07/09/15 Running Boards
08/27/15 Hinges
11/10/15 Steering Gears
03/14/16 Engine Pans
04/03/16 Mufflers
09/15/16 Gasoline Tanks
07/01/16 Sediment Bulbs
11/28/16 Hoods
11/24/16 Back Curtain Retainers
12/19/16 Spindle Cones
01/12/17 Door Locks
02/14/17 Crank Cases
03/01/17 Radiator Complete
02/01/19 Starter Type Engines
02/01/19 Fly Wheel Ring Gear
02/01/19 Generators
02/01/19 Starter Motors
02/01/19 Generator Brackets
02/01/19 Starter Wire Assemblies
11/01/19 Commutator Cases
10/16/19 Hub Brake Pull Rods
12/01/19 Fenders
12/01/19 Running Board Shields
12/01/19 Frames
07/01/20 Magnet Supports
08/01/20 Battery Boxes & Brackets
08/01/20 Square Gas Tanks
08/01/20 Oval Gas Tanks
09/01/20 Front Radius Rod
07/01/21 Exhaust Pipe and Muffler Assy.
08/01/21 Starter Motor Comm.
08/01/21 Fan Pulley White Metal Casting
01/01/22 Generator Commutators
03/01/22 Windshields
03/01/22 Spare Rim Carriers
03/01/22 Spare Rim Carrier Brackets
03/15/22 Brake Lever Pawls
08/01/22 Priming Rods with White Metal Top
01/10/23 Rear Radius Rods
01/11/23 Rivets – all sizes
10/01/23 Metal Dashes
11/01/23 Left Side Panels (Open Models)
01/10/24 Glass Cutting and Grinding
02/15/24 Assemble, Enamel and Trim Closed Bodies
03/15/24 Assemble Tour. & Road. Bodies
04/10/24 Bushings Brass and Steel
05/27/24 Enamel and Trim Touring Bodies
07/15/24 Open Top and Curtain Mfg.
08/15/24 Time Gear Lock Nut
09/01/24 Bow Sockets for Open Body Tops
10/01/24 Roller Bearing Sleeves
10/10/24 Coil Units
10/10/24 Thrust Bearings (Ball Races)
Oct. 1924 Cut Outs (being organized)
Nov. 1924 Hot Air Stove “ “
Thanks John, yes always interested, just adds more info for the big question of what do or to believe, just at a quick look at the list and the one that jumps out first is the radiators, the story of Ford, one of the first few photo's is the radiator department, employing 200 men where they are made, rows of nice brass rads.
John, Got the messagem posted a reply to you Yesterday
PK
This is the type of documents/information we are looking for. Records and items from back in the day or in this case back to 1926 or 27. If you have similar items or copies of items that you could scan and send to me – or post -- that would be greatly appreciated. Below is a listing of Canadian serial numbers sent to me by John Stokes and I assume it would trace its origins back to the Colonial Motor Company who has graciously given us permission to use and post items from them. “Document [assumed] from the Colonial Motor Company NZ Collection.” [The Colonial Motor Company Ltd has been selling Fords in New Zealand since 1908 and was the Canadian Ford distributor during the early days. ]
In this case the Canadian Ford Motors Numbers listed by The Colonial Motor Company Ltd often disagree with the numbers in the list that Herman Smith provided. They are often close but off by a few or several hundred numbers in some cases and sometimes the two listings agree. Why post something with conflicting information? Because it appears to be an early Colonial Motor Company listing of what they thought was the correct Canadian Ford Motor Numbers. The serial numbers stop at Dec 31, 1926. And the date at the bottom of the document is 12/5/27. Which John pointed out would be Dec 5, 1927 by USA convention or 12 May, 1927 by New Zealand convention. Either way it appears to have been prepared back in the day. And hopefully it will encourage others to send and/or post historical items.
I will send a note to Chris our web master to see how he would like us to handle posting some of the Canadian items. We don’t want to clog up the board – but we would like to make the items available to others. Alex provided me a copy of the 1913ish Canadian brochure and I will see if Chris would like to add that to the original literature section or not. In the mean time if anyone else would like to have a scanned copy of that brochure, please drop me a note with “Send 1913 Model T Canadian Brochure” or something similar in the title along with your e-mail and I will try to get a copy off to you.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Oops – my bad. The copy I had from Alex is of the early 1912 Canadian sales catalog and not the 1913 (approximately) brochure that Alex obtained the numerous details on numbers of cars, types of buildings being constructed, machine shop upgrades etc. Currently the 1912 USA Sales Catalog containing the same left hand drive illustrations (cars) as the Canadian catalog is already on line at: http://mtfca.com/books/12Cat.htm
. Most of the pages and words are the same except for the descriptions of the cars. The Canadian cars have fore-doors but they open on both sides and they mention but do not illustrate it is available in RHD. Quantities are listed in Imperial Gallons etc. Also the “testimonials” are from Canadian T customers some as far away as South Africa. There are few other changes – but I did not see anything significant. Not nearly as helpful as the 1913 brochure that I thought it was. But, it is still available to anyone who would like a copy.
We will be working to obtain a complete scanned version of the 1913 Ford Canada document and making it available. We will let you know when that is available. And if others have Ford of Canada documents they are willing to scan and share, please let us know. We would like to avoid having two different folks go to the effort to scan the same document.
Again thanks to everyone for their support.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
For those interested in the above I have just found the reference to the winter storage of engines.
It comes from the June 1922 Ford Owner and Dealer magazine. starting on page 48.
Titled "The Fifth Birthday Party"
sub titled
Motor Numbers tell when each Ford Car and Truck was made, Also Includes Canadian Fords and General Specifications.
The last paragraph on page 52 states.
"As some parts of Canada have such deep snow during the winter months that the use of even Ford cars is impractical there is an "off" season in the sale of Ford Cars in Canada, during which Ford engines are made and stored in the factory. When production is resumed in the spring , then the engines last made and stored are the most accessible, and so are first used for assembly into completed Fords.
Consequently, it is impossible to figure quite so closely, within months or weeks just when a Canadian Ford was built. Though in the long sweep of the yearly production, the results will be found accurate."
Some of the numbers line up with the NZ list some are way off????
Peter,
Can I pick your brain on an article you wrote some 30+ years ago about Fords in Australia, published in the Vintage ford.
6 pages of it are what could be found at the time of serial numbers and casting dates researched from the Canadian Archives and Service Bulletins etc, you mention on this thread that Bruce was working on the same thing in the 80's
Questions would be, are the lists what Bruce was working on and was it ever up dated since then.
Also to make some sense out of the serial numbers to other publications of production numbers, can you remember if these stats are in fiscal or calander years.
(One page of the six)
Kerry,
The list in the Vintage Ford was the result of all that we could find at the time.
Canadian Ford Bulletins, Fordex books, Ford Canada info, plus several hundred engine numbers and casting dates gathered by MTFCA members mainly from Australia but a few from New Zealand and Canada.
In those days there was only snail mail so communications were a lot less. Although Bruce asked for more info from members as is usual few if any bothered to help by adding anything they had which was of use.
At that time I had an Apple 2 computer which we entered all the numbers and casting dates into. Over the years things changed and I could see no point in moving the info to windows or whatever as no one else appeared to care I found other things to do also.
The list in the VF is in calendar years as far as I can tell.
There was a rather extensive Canadian book published on their Fords about 1995. I met the author once in Hamilton, Ontario at the MTFCI Winter Meet, when John Eagle was president. I can not find a copy of the book or remember the title or the name of the author now, although someone gave me that information a few years ago.
Have i missed something here but who stamped the engine number 33485 on my open valve engine?
I assumed that this was done at Piquette Ave plant as the number is shown as "engine only" and again assumed it was sent to Canada for a export car kit to Australia. Did Canada then stamp the body ID tag on fit to heel kick plate?
Cheers Alan in Western Australia
Alan,
All the engines were assembled in the USA in the Detroit area at that time. I’m not sure in the Fall of 1910 which Ford plant your engine would have been assembled in as they moved from Piquette Ave to Highland Park around that time frame and everything did not move on one day.
But which ever plant produced your engine (the one operating the engine shop at that time (and there possibly was some over lap when engines may have been produced at both Piquette and Highland Park) they would have stamped the engine. As far as I have been able to find out the Model T Engine serial number was stamped onto the engine block after the engine and transmission was assembled. Then for those years when the engine number matched the number stamped onto the ID patent plate, after the engine was mated to the chassis and the body (or firewall in those cases where the ID patent plate was on the fire wall) the number was stamped. When the ID patent plate was stamped I’m not sure but sometime around the time it was close enough to the engine number for the number to be seen and then stamped. Note in the USA production during 1911 the ID patent plate number began to diverge from the engine serial number but in Canada they continued to be the same at least through 1915 – if you would like references for that please let me know and I will look them up and post them. And of course a similar event occurred when Ford began stamping the engine number onto the frames during the 1926 production. The engine was already in the frame and then the number was stamped onto the frame rail.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hi Kerry and others, the list that Peter is talking about was done over a year and Peter and I checked hundreds of blocks in three states and I recived dozens more from new club members to the Model T Ford Club of Australia (NSW inc) and if one use's the sheet properly that we collated then you can pin the engine down to the week it was made, I kept adding to it over the last 20 years and you can watch cars moving from one owner to another or state to state after major rallies, I would say it is more accurate that some book printed in Canada in the last 20 years.
It was set out in numbers by casting dates and numbers by sequence and with which state they came from including New Zealand... Ray Green
I remember doing this, probably 30 plus years ago now. I remember chasing down every Canadian block we could find and passing across engine number and casting dates for as many as we find. Then we sent the information to you guys in Sydney. Wow, talk about a memory trip!
Figures from another period publication - the following is from John W Andrew & Son's Ford Catalogue 6th Edition effective January 1923. (Would be very obliged if anyone has ealier editions they would copy or scan for me)
Data for Use in Obtaining Serial Numbers of Model T Ford Cars Manufactured in the Canadian Factory and Supplied to New Zealand.
May 1, 1913 to July 31, 1913.. C1 to C1500
Aug 1, 1913 to July 31, 1914.. C1501 to C16500
Aug 1, 1914 to July 31, 1915.. C15501 to C37500
Aug 1, 1915 to July 31, 1916.. C37501 to C70000
Aug 1, 1916 to July 31, 1917.. C70001 to C121000
Aug 1, 1917 to July 31, 1918.. C121001 to C170000
Aug 1, 1918 to July 31, 1919.. C170001 to C208500
Aug 1, 1919 to Aug. 31, 1919.. C208501 to C212500
Sept.1, 1919 to Sept.30, 1919.. C212501 to C216500
Oct. 1, 1919 to Oct. 31, 1919.. C216501 to 222500
Nov. 1, 1919 to Nov. 30, 1919.. C222501 to C227500
Another interesting fact noted in the same publication. It notes there were over 16,000 Fords in NZ by this time.
Hi Alex, those figures are just that, of no real use except to say my car was made in that year, send me what you want to know and I will check my sheets for you before I get rid of them, you know where to find me as I have disposed of a large amount of my info... Ray