Ford ambulance revisited, answer for Wayne S

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Ford ambulance revisited, answer for Wayne S
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 10:57 am:


I missed this photo last year, Wayne asked about the leggings and campaign hat. Art showed a great photo of his father in 1918 (most likely taken in the US before he went to France)
The explanation on the leggings is that the canvas leggings were used in the US, but they were not suitable for use int he trenches, the wool wrap puttees were issued upon arrival in France, they helped keep the lower leg warm even when wet, and were thought to be bug proof, My understanding is that they worked against chiggers, but did not help against lice.
The American uniform underwent changes when the soldier arrived in France, the canvas leggings being only part of the change, the other big change wost the campaign hat, it was turned in and replaced with the overseas cap, which could be folded flat and easily packed when wearing the British designed Brodie helmet. The boys were also issued French M2 gas masks at first (this was nothing more than a multilayer cloth facemask with lenses, it was soaked with chemical to neutralize the gas that was expect to be encountered, and contrary to the experts on Mail Call, did not need to be urinated on to work), and when they were moved to the front, they were issued with either British SBRs (small box respirators) or an American copy of the SBR.
One often sees leather leggings for sale offered as officer leggings, but most are civilian apparel, and many of the photos that Jay has posted shoe people (adults and children) wearing them early in this century.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 02:27 pm:

That is a wonderful photo. So much detail on the vehicle and the uniforms. Thank you for the information also. I have a couple WWI gas masks. One was in very good condition, but I haven't looked at it in many years. The other wasn't very nice, but I found it in the garage behind a cabinet when we bought the house in Livermore. The explanation of the wraps/leggings makes sense. I have long wondered why they used them because they are a pain to put on.
Hopefully one of our ambulance friends can tell us exactly which model ambulance that is?
Thank you!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Magedanz on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 02:40 pm:

Not to mention the period nurses' uniforms in the background, too.
Thanks for the great photo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Hey Wayne,
The ambulance is the standard M1917 Ford body, this photo was taken in the United States,very likely near Allentown Penn. The nurses uniforms are a standard style, like the type used by the Red Cross nurses, the Army Nurses Corps also wore this style of uniform. There is not insignia visible so it is difficult to say who they are affiliated with. During WWI, the Red Cross supplied a lot of the medical support for the military, it was not until later that the RC became more interested in profit than aid.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 03:56 pm:

Hey Wayne,
I forgot to mention that US gas masks are normally very dry and hard (the face mask and hose) they were not made to last 100 years, and the rubber in the mask becomes hard a brittle, there is nothing that can be done, but do not throw one away because it is in poor shape, as they are still of historic value.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 04:02 pm:

Here is a photo of part of my collection of WWI uniforms, this explains why I have an interest in the Ambulances of WWI. This photo was taken at the Fort Douglas Military Museum in Salt Lake City abut 5 years ago, during their open house.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

I love the construction visible in this photo. From the look of the boxes on the side of the car they were concerned with making lots of them fast... no time spent on a pretty finish!

Are those white clincher Non-Skid tires (Tyres)? The canvas weather curtains are really fascinating... the front curtain probably has a celluloid insert near the top. It was probably cozy warm from the engine, but I doubt you could see where you were going due to the rain and condensation on that curtain!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Sunday, April 15, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

Hey Terry,
From what I have read, the drivers did not need to see where they were going, they were traveling on unmarked roads in the dark with out lights. Men were men in those days, heck even boys were men then.
Best
gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 12:35 am:

Gus,
Like you say that is a amazing photo! I used it and got the following drawing for the M1917.



As you can see the photo was almost perfect to use. I just had to put it at a slight angle.

The dimensions confirm this article that was posted in the past on this forum:



If anyone has more photos of the M1917 let me know. I have been connecting with Gus about various details. Trying to get a good accurate drawing for the M1917.

Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Schultz-Rathbun on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 02:16 am:

I have a picture of my grandmother in a uniform like those in the background. She served as a nurse in France, US Army Nursing Corps, attached to a British field hospital. Among her things when she died was a box full of uniform badges and buttons from soldiers she cared for as they came right out of the trenches. There was even an Iron Cross in the box.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 03:26 am:

That is a fantastic collection of uniforms! I have most of three army uniforms. None are truly complete, but one is close. It happens to be a Medical corps judging by the insignia. There is a blood stain on the tunic's left lower pocket. One must wonder what the story is behind it.
Anyone that knows me, knows I almost never throw out anything of potential collector interest (note, I didn't say value). The Gas masks are safe as long as I live and have a roof over my head. When I die, come a runnin'!
Thanks again for sharing photos and information.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 04:49 am:

Hi Matt

I was curious to know if I could duplicate your scale measurements using
the grid in Photoshop, and then finding a way to save the photo and the ‘grid’.
(Hope the newer version of the program can do this, my way was a - p i t a)
I used a series of 10” squares, subdivided into 2” segments and then re-sized the
actual image until the hub caps were centred at 100 inches (+/- a bit) on my grid.
Seems to have turned out quite close to your dimensions – wonders do happen.



Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 10:10 am:

Hey Art,
Great job on the grid, the lines are not quite centered on the hubs, but then that places the grid at the level of the side of the rear body. as the perspective of the viewer has a different scale depending on the distance from the camera.
The thing that is bugging me was pointed out by Matthew, the cross member behind the rear wheel is moved to the rear a couple inches, and the iron bracket is bent, I thought at first that this was damage to this machine, even though tow other photos showed the same feature, they were both of the same side and I assumed that they were the same car, but this photo that was posted here a couple years ago also shows the same sort of anomaly on the other side. My guess is that some how the crossmembers were miss jigged and did not match the sides, so rather than taking it apart and correcting the mistake (that would leave an extra hole and weakness in the sill) they just assembled it the best they could. I have seen a photo taken in France that might show the same feature.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 10:18 am:

Hey Randy,
US Army Nurse Corps histories are very rare, and precious. Try to keep it in the family and pass it on to your children. Often, people think that such histories are best in a museum, but that is not always true, as there are thousands of tons of similar artifacts that are stored in back rooms and basements of museums that may never be seen by the public.
I would be very interested in seeing a photograph of the collection, and my be able to identify some of the badges, if you have not already done so.
I have only a couple of USANC items in my collection, the dog tag and ID card of a Nurse who served in France in 1919 during the latte months of the war.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randy Schultz-Rathbun on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 03:45 pm:

Unfortunately her army records were lost in a fire at the archive many years ago. I do have the Royal Red Cross medal she was awarded by the Royal Army and the letter sent from the War Department that accompanied it. It was awarded for "outstanding service whilst attached to a British unit." She never talked about the war or her experiences to us grandkids. My father said the hospital was gassed and shelled at least once. There were family stories of a romance with a British officer who was killed in the trenches. If he had survived, would I be writing this from England?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 11:09 pm:

Art,
You have a great idea. The grid function can be very helpful. I am sure you did that in a lot less time than it took me. Quick and dirty approach is sometimes the best one.

Again, does anyone have photos of M1917 ambulance to post. Especially nice ones like Gus did.

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 08:54 am:

Even better yet would be the patent or design drawings for that Ford ambulance body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:47 am:

David O'Neal told me that the 1918 ambulance body drawings are available through the Benson Archives. The 1917 ones are not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 11:50 am:

Anyone interested in the 1918 For Ambulance Drawings from the Benson Ford Research Center needs to ask for the SFA drawings.

This detail is from the SFA-262 Left Side Drawing.

detail

The jog in the lines is due to my piecing the many small sheets (scanned) into a complete drawing using Gimp.

Most of the measurements and materials you would need to make an ambulance body are there. There is also a bit of detail on lengthening the chassis and drive shaft about 11 inches.

While getting that detail image, I found a photo of and American Field Service ambulance showing an earlier version of the ambulance body.

AFS Ambulance

This is similar to the 1917, but is on an earlier brass radiator chassis. This is more what Clara Bow drove in the movie Wings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

Not sure if this one has been posted before, but was captioned 1917.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J Berch on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 01:59 pm:

A couple ambulances in DC. The first one looks like it could be a long wheel base. (Pewee Herman's grandpa).





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Here is a photo of some more US ambulances the photo is from a special Ford Times war edition (Canada)
ambulance

The grid system looked at above is something I thought about when I was restoring my Town Car. then one only had photo's and snail mail but now with Photoshop and the forum such a graph system would be of great use to a lot of people especially those along way away from a source of information such as here in Australia.

I wonder if we could somehow get side on, front and rear shots of Model T body types and do as Art Bell has so anyone building a body ambulance/depot hack/speedster whatever could be helped to get measurements which make their recreation more exact and in proportion.

Having seen some attempts and spoken with owners they often state they had to go by guess work. Often they get measurements wrong such as the depot hack one of our members made. He set out where the seat was for a comfortable drive position but forgot that it would need padding. When it was upholstered he was cramped behind the wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 12:12 am:

I might point out that the ambulances in the above photo would have been donated by people who raised the money to purchase them from Ford Motor Company, Ford did not donate cars, nor did he give a discount for quantities, but charged full retail price, according to period histories.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:27 am:

One more ambulance photo - great for swap meets!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 01:32 am:

What is the spring on the rear end of J Berch's photo?

Matthew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mattthew G California on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 01:43 am:

Gus
This:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40C17FA3B5F157A93C0A91782D85F438 185F9

seems to give a different story about Fords involvement:
FORD GIVES $500,000 IN AUTOS TO RED CROSS; Credit on Factories Will Be Drawn Upon to Increases Ambulance Service in Europe.


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