19-- thru 1925 steel wood wheel felloes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 19-- thru 1925 steel wood wheel felloes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, April 16, 2012 - 09:54 pm:

Question, Snyders sells wood spokes and claim they are longer to accomodate Hayes Felloes. Apparently 1/16 inch different in the diameter of Hayes vs Ford. Mine are Hayes I am assuming, the spokes went in but man were they tight! Other than measuring, is there any obvious difference in these felloes? Has anyone seen any stamping marks on them? My rims say Hayes on the lugs, but I never see anything on the felloes. I'm also thinking that there are alot of Hayes rims carrying Ford felloes, and vice versa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 09:58 pm:

John,

From Snyder’s catalog at:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/282802.html?1334627692

For use with Kelsey Hayes wheels. These hickory spokes are about 1/32" longer than the T-2800-A30-H spokes. The fellow of a Kelsey Hayes wheel measures 20-13/16" I.D. The other Ford Fellow measures 20-3/4."

http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/4083
Available in hickory. Hickory spokes are available for both sizes of tenons that were used. U.S.A.

From Lang’s catalog they have:
http://www.modeltford.com/item/2800HS-HY.aspx
Hickory spoke for Kelsey - Hayes wheels 30 X 3 1/2" with 1/2" tenon. Ford felloe i.d is 20 3/4" while Kelsey or Hayes felloes i.d. is 20 13/16" so these spokes are 1/32" longer than the spokes for the Ford wheels.

For some reason (probably a good one but a reason I don't understand or know about at the moment) both Lang's and Snyder's uses the term Kelsey - Hayes for wheels that require the longer spokes. But the information I have is that Kelsey – Hayes were independent wheel companies until they merged during 1927. For a short history of both of those companies see the article in the Foothills Model T Ford Club newsletter, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Volume 36 Edition 2 February 2011

The photo below is from that article and shows the KELSEY WHEEL CO logo stamped on the inside of the felloe – in this case the “K” and “EEL” are not visible because of the valve stem hole and the hole for the spoke and is from that article in Vol 36 Ed 2 Feb 2011:



In the photo below provided by Mike Brown you can see the NO 88 which the Kelsey wheel size for the Model T Fords:



Additionally the Kelsey felloes are very easy to identify even when they do not have a name or number that is visible. They have a raised notch at each of the four lug bolts that the removable lug fits against. Below is a photo Ron Grigsby posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/33266.html you can clearly see the notch or slot on the felloe.



So many questions so little time to discover answers. But if you review the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377
Scroll down to:

By scott on Wednesday, May 20, 2009 - 07:02 am:
Hap

FYI I just finished respoking a set of 4 Hayes wheels with Felloe profile "B" in Peter's response. Immediately opposite the valve stem hole, on the outside, there was "H" stamped with "pat'd" above it and Ju?? xx, 192? under it. This felloe had 4 depressions (clearly factory made) where the mounting bolts went for the rim, acting as a sloppy lock mechanism for the welded, raised lugs on the rims. These felloes were lighter in cross section and a little larger in ID (1/16"), and took "Hayes" type spokes that are new to market by some suppliers. I got the first batch of these spokes that Langs offered and they worked great. The "Ford" spokes I tried were actually loose.

Rebuilt a couple wheels a year ago, profile "C" which had simple word Hayes stamped inside the Felloe. These felloes had a clearly defined notch where the welded, raised lugs on the rim located. These felloes were heavier in cross section, a little smaller ID, and took "Ford" length spokes.
Note Hayes and H were shown on the felloe. And that depending on the felloe profile they took a different length spoke.

If anyone has additional information (especially if it is an easy way to tell) how to tell which spoke you need to order for the felloes --- please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

Hap, I agree with your conclusion that the use of Kelsey-Hayes to describe the felloes with the larger diameter is mis-leading. Here in Australia our Canadian sourced wheels were from Kelsey, and they were branded similarly to the photos posted for the US made Kelsey wheels. All ours had loose lugs and the slots punched in the felloes to accept one leg of the U shaped loose lug. These indeed need the longer spokes now available from the vendors.
When I rebuild Hayes wire wheels I source felloes from the 1925 wheels which were used on our Australian cars. 1925 was the only year we had fixed lug rims like the US cars. I have not taken specific notice of the diameter of these, as the spoking process on a wire wheel means it is not important However, on original Hayes wire wheels there is a depression in the outer edge of the felloe to allow the foot on the Hayes fixed lugs to go on over the felloe.
Other brands of fixed lug rims will fit without the depression.

For your interest.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 01:53 pm:

well, by the photo, I do not have kelseys. my rims all say hayes. I agree, none of my Hayes rims say Kelsey, just Hayes. My felloe has no marking that I can see, but these are or were pretty rusty ones. But this gives me info to look at and study with others that I have. I do know now that somewhere I must have a Kelsey, because I remember that raised part at the bolt area on one of my old Felloes. Mine are very tight and good now, Thanks for the info!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

Allan -- thank you for your input. The Canadian 1925 Price List of Parts notes that the Fixed Lug rims were used in all Canadian production in 1925. In the USA all the wheels went to fixed lug Hayes style regardless of which company or even if Ford produced them. I'll try to send a note to Lang's and ask them why they use the term "Kelsey - Hayes."

John -- If you have a chance, please take some photos of your Hayes rim and the logo and post and/or send it my way. You can click on my name at the beginning of any of postings and my e-mail address is the third line down. Or send me a Private Message via the forum and I will send you my e-mail address.

Is the Hayes stamped in the same location on all your wheels or random location? Is it on the inside of the felloe like the Kelsey and would be covered up when the rim is fitted?

We are working with Steve Shelton hoping to put together a rim and wheel guide to help folks in the future be able to figure out which rims fit which wheels easily and which ones are not compatible.

If others have photos and information -- we would love to add it to that article.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

Hap - I cant see anything inside the actual Felloe's. My rims are all stamped very plainly right on the four mounting tabs -all say Hayes. I'll photo them. I have lots of extras though, and I will now look at all of them, and be glad to photo and send the marks along. The inside of that one felloe In particular is (was) so rusty that it was no doubt covered up, but it is still dismounted so I will look closely again. The others that I have that are dismounted and old or dirty, I will also inspect for you. I'll dig out that Kelsey felloe and see what I can see on it also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 07:03 am:

John,

Thank you so much for the offer to take photos and send them my way. My bad for thinking one thing and typing another! We have some good photos of the Hayes fixed rims. As you said they have a deep Hayes stamped/cast/forged into the lug (sometimes just one lug on a rim). That name will normally be there even after years of rusting. If the rim is still usable, the Hayes on the lug is almost always still visible.

What we do not have good photos of and that we would like additional documentation and information are the felloes (wheels) that were made by Hayes or used by Hayes. [Also those produced by other suppliers to Ford that were used as original equipment from the factory on Model Ts.]. Perhaps Hayes did not stamp their felloe with their name? But I am hoping that someone sometime will find a Model T felloe with the Hayes stamp or an “H” [from memory – I think someone did find one with an “H” stamped?] so we can better document them. We may also be able to find additional information about them from the Ford Archives. For the Kelsey wheel and felloe the “Model T Times” printed a copy of the Kelsey factory drawing. I scanned the drawing but I forgot to document which issue it was from. I also need to obtain permission to reprint it.

Again, thank you all for your help and support with this project. For those with a complete set of wheels and a spare on your car – it is not that helpful to you. But for those working to put a set together that uses the same style rim, hopefully it will make the search easier.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:13 pm:

Hap - havent forgotten the photos, Im working on them. Found a 21 inch wheel today and another Felloe that is really different. Im looking for markings - will send to your e-mail when I get em! I used to work in forward timing at the Ford Sharonville plant. What you need from the archives (Benson Ford) is the change control documentation for the T wheels. I got all of that for the tolls one times, and it provides vast information. Wish I still knew someone in Dearborn that we could get to help with that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

John,

No rush on the photos -- I've been working on this one for a while. Yes, the "change cards" along with the factory drawings for the wheels would answer many of the questions.

Also looking at the wheels and/or of photos of they wheels has been very helpful to me. I have some guesses I've been working on and I am waiting for some additional information to show up and either confirm I guessed correctly or correct my guess -- either way it is a "win" as we will gain more accurate information.

Again if anyone has additional data please let us know or please post. And if anyone is visiting the Benson Ford Archives and would like to help out with the effort, please let us know and we will try to provide you with the factory numbers of the prints we would like you to take a look at. The change cards would go with the same factory number(s) and parts.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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