Anyone "Index' Model-T Spark Plugs?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Anyone "Index' Model-T Spark Plugs?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:25 pm:

My neighbor has a 750 H.P. vintage stock car that he uses in exhibition racing. I was over in his garage recently when I saw him with about 25 brand new spark plugs placing and removing them in the engine. When I asked what he was doing, he replied; "I'm indexing the plugs". He explained that he wanted the open end of the plug gap to be directly facing the intake valve, thereby firing the gas mixture early on, rather than having it pass around the opposite side before igniting. Given the random cut of threads of both the plug and the cylinder head, it was a trial and error procedure to find the plug that would be correctly lined up or "indexed". Any one out there care to comment on this practice and if it would have any effect on T engine performance or would it only be applicable to high performance race cars?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

OCD


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:36 pm:

Sounds like superstition and voodu to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke Dahlinger on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:47 pm:

I index the spark plugs on everything I own. And yes I do have OCD.

I doubt it makes much difference on motors such as Model T's, but on my higher horsepower cars I do notice a difference.

You can buy indexing kits, but I usually use a Sharpie marker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

OCD? Sorry but I don't comprehend those letters.
Believe me, my neighbor knows what he is doing. He has been supporting Pro race cars engines for years as well as his own racing. Maybe some of you Race Car fans would like to see this vintage Coupe. Here it is:

#83 Coupe The BIG Engine


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

NO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:07 am:

Obsessive-compulsive disorder


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:17 am:

I think most of the Montana 500 folks do it. If you look at their plugs you can usually spot the index mark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 12:40 am:

I hate to bring up pepper and fly poop again...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will,, Trenton,,,New Jersey on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 06:46 am:

I love that vintage race stuff...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:39 am:

Of Course: I should have known, OCD is akin to ANAL.

Tom, Now that I know the Montana 500 participants (almost said guys) do it, with the recent dyno data on various cars/engines, perhaps there would be a "fly poop" worth of difference when comparing indexed vs. non-indexed T engines. Maybe not a significant improvement on a 20 H.P. engine, but many small (pepper speck") gains do add up!

My neighbor also recently took 8 lbs. off the flywheel and paid $200 for a plate between the carb and manifold to swirl the gas/air to give him +40 H.P. Will it be discernable when added to 750 H.P.? Like they say: OCD!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 08:52 am:

My niece posted on Facebook a few weeks ago: "I'm hosting an OCD group at my house this evening. I don't have it, but I'm hoping that one or two of them will get frustrated and clean the place."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 09:20 am:

The 225hp outboard on my bass boat will barely run if the plugs aren't indexed. On a T I'm happy if I can install the plugs so they don't leak around the threads!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 09:44 am:

You all might be interested in my latest invention for the spark plug. Its a ball bearing floating electrode which automatically indexes itself to the correct position. I am working on a computer controlled anode positioner which will adjust the height of the anode for maximum performance. These type devices were initially used on the Jetson's vehicles and have been recently adapted for use in conventional automobiles. Similar designs for Diesel injectors are in process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 09:57 am:

Right on, Ted.

By all these accounts, massive electrode plugs in aircraft engines are defective. The center electrode is surrounded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:22 am:

Let's see, the intake valve closes at the bottom of the intake stroke and the beginning of the compression stroke. Seems to me the gases would be well mixed in the chamber by the time ignition occurs making the position of the electrode relative to the intake valve non-relavent. It would seem more likely the position of the electrode in the compression chamber could have some affect on the flame front there by effecting better/worse combustion benefit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Kennedy on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:29 am:

Indexing plugs does make a difference especially if you are professionally racing. When 0.001 seconds can be the difference between winning and losing. I won't waste time indexing any of my cars. Too much time for such a little gain for daily driving . On my 5.0 EFI Mustang I did index the mass air meter. That was done on a smog dyno and yes it does make a small performance gain for economy operation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Kennedy on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:35 am:

Indexing plugs does make a difference especially if you are professionally racing. When 0.001 seconds can be the difference between winning and losing. I won't waste time indexing any of my cars. Too much time for such a little gain for daily driving . On my 5.0 EFI Mustang I did index the mass air meter. That was done on a smog dyno and yes it does make a small performance gain for economy operation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:45 am:

You can say that again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chuck Hoffman - Gold Country of Calif. on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:45 am:

Even if indexing the plugs on a T engine did make a difference, which I doubt, given the sophistication of this particular engine, I am guessing you'd never feel it anyway. If you can gain a couple horsepower on a 1600 h.p. engine, how much will you gain on a 20 h.p. engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:57 am:

I index my plugs so you can read the "Champion X" when viewed from the right side of the engine. :-)

plugs


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

I wax the sidewalls of my tires. I figure with the reduced air friction over the tire surfaces I will save .0001 of centiliter of gasoline over a period of 80 years if I drive the car 10,000 miles a year and don't install all those heavy cotter pins in the oil pan bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 01:33 pm:

Tire pressure and wheel alignment will make far more difference in performance and economy than which way the spark plugs are oriented.

I think Mike has the right idea for T plugs (but I couldn't bring myself to do it on my cars).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 02:57 pm:

LOL... The same naivety is what kept man from flying or going over 60mph. We'll never leave the face of the planet nor walk on the moon. Computers will never run faster than 100Mhz or have more than 64Kb of memory.

Why put adjustable timing on a car? It's complicated and serves no benefit on it's own. A single improvement when measured against the hole makes little difference on it's own. When combined with others and working together, the difference is phenomenal.

The same holds true for indexing plugs. But we never indexed the plug to the intake valve. Back in my KART days, we indexed it to the piston or compression chamber. It makes a measurable difference at high rpm (6,000+) but the Model T probably wouldn't see any difference. It's too slow. That doesn't mean the idea doesn't work. The skeptical are always at the forefront of the uninformed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 03:18 pm:

Mike has it. You better believe I index my T plugs. I am happier and am convinced Lizzy runs better too. I make sure to set them so I can get the gap I want and they will tighten down with the FORD script facing out. Love those vintage champions.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bruckzone/6495179643/in/set-72157628213067397


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike bartlett Oviedo,Fl on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 04:58 pm:

Willard, 30 years back I had a 1000 HP dragster.Indexing plugs was done by all of us at that time. I couldn't tell you if the car went quicker with indexed plugs or not.I doubt it matters too much with our 20 HP T's.I for sure wont index plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

Interesting thread, I asked about the same a few months ago. Last time I removed my plugs two of them had carbon black only on the back side of the plug. Not sure which way it was pointed.

Seems like it's very easy to do on a T though.

At shows I like to open my hood but so far have not had anyone ask what those black marks are on the plugs.

I have some Champions and really like the idea of having all the logos facing the outside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J Berch on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 06:37 pm:

On a two piece plug such as the Champion X, it would be easy to index the Logo for aesthetics but how would you index the ground electrode w/pipe threads, tin foil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:11 pm:

When I worked withe the race team (358 Modified), we always indexed the plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 07:32 pm:

Hey Mike,
Where did you get those beautiful spark plug wires for your '15?
I sure would like to have a set like you have!
cheers,
Darren


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Hughes, Raymond, NE on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

By the way, that's CDO. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, but in alphabetical order, like it SHOULD Be!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 12:29 am:

Dispulisive oborder comsessive ... that's Dyslexic OCD


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 09:18 am:

From Steven Wright: "Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert E. (Bob) Blackbourn, Gautier Ms. on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 09:41 am:

Willard, "25 brand new spark plugs " ?
Seems like an "odd" number of spark plugs!
Must be an "in line" configuration.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 10:52 am:

Darren -- I got those from Lang's, part # 5029ORA. About $20 for the set, including the mag wire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 10:57 am:

Oops!!! -- I just checked my files and found that I got those from Snyder's, part # T-5029-A2. They were 36 bucks, not 20. Sorry about that; I should have checked before posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 01:20 pm:

Thanks Mike!
I didn't know they made them like that. They look much better than the orange ones.The orange ones do look good,but yours look much nicer!
I'll be calling Snyder's..... :-)


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