Transmission noise

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Transmission noise
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert bowers on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 10:35 pm:

I completely restored my 1927 Fordor it drives good. 1 day I was going a little faster than I should have I pushed low pedal in and at the same time the brake pedal as I was going around the corner I heard a pop which may not have been related but here is the problem when I come to a complete stop the last couple of seconds the trans makes a ratcheting noise like if you were starting to go up a rollercoaster. The trans also jerks or grabs hard going in 1st or reverse and also makes a clunk noise when first moving. it doesnt make any noise in high and drives good when going down the road. When the car is cold and I first start out in the AM it doesnt make any of these problems but when I take it around the block and it warms up the noises start. I restored this 27 Fordor completely engine and trans rebuilt trans has new bushings new clutches and springs. The differential has new ring & pinion new updated thrust bearings new roller bearings for axels. I had about 10 people over the house at the same time listening at this noise alot are Model T owners they said it sounds like it is in the trans. this winter I changed the bands in the trans. when I rebuilt the engine and trans I didnt install the new bands on purpose. they appeared ok and since I was a beginner I would use the old ones as practice then install new ones. I took out scandiva bands and put in what appeared to be cotton bands this past winter I took it for a ride again the noises are still there. I read in Vintage Ford magizine about 4 issues ago about band chatter but they never described the noise. the noise wasnt there after I restored it for aprox 2 months then this happened. please help? is this band chatter? should I go to cevlar bands? I havent driven this except for test drives I dont want to damage any thing or should I just drive it? It doesnt make any noise when driving only when starting out in 1st or reverse or ratching noise when braking.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, April 21, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

Robert, it sounds like a rear axle problem to me. The ratcheting noise you are hearing is most likely the ring and pinion gears skipping in the rear end. The sudden change of speed and strain on the rear end may have damaged something in your rear end allowing the gears to skip when under a heavy load such as taking off or braking with the transmission brake. You say you installed new roller bearings for the axles which makes me suspicious. What kind of bearings did you use and what type of drive shaft pinion bearing did you use?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 09:56 pm:

Spud (Robert) - I'll give you a call.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert bowers on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Hi keith talk to you soon. Steve I installed sealed roller bearings for both the inner axle and outer axle. I also installed the updated needle bearings for the thrust washers and for the pinion bearing I installed the adjustable preloadeable bearing for the pinion gear. the ring and pinion are also both new. the differential doesn't make noise while driving so I think the ring and pinion is good. I'm not opposed on taking the rear end apart again I'm just grasping for straws because this car drove good with no noises I would like to get that back so I can drive it with confidence. Thanks for all suggestions. Spud


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert bowers on Sunday, April 22, 2012 - 10:34 pm:

Steve if You want to call here is my Cell 1-262-930-6773 thanks Spud


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 12:09 am:

Do you think it is possible that the roller thrust bearings broke apart? I really doubt that the noise is your transmission because when braking the only area of the transmission being stressed is the brake drum and driven plate. The gears and other two drums play no part in braking so there really is nothing in the transmission that could be making the ratcheting noise. When taking off in low or reverse and braking the ring and pinion are heavily loaded but when moving along they are not so heavily loaded which may be the reason why you only hear the noise when taking off and braking. Have you removed the transmission inspection cover and looked inside? Are there any obvious signs of damage? Look over your drums especially the low drum for cracks. Do you hear the noise during hard cornering or when the throttle is quickly pulled open or shut? Does the car lurch or shutter when making the noise? Is the noise a popping and banging noise. I would not recommend driving the car again until the problem is sorted out because if it is the rear end you could easily loose your brakes.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 12:45 am:

The words that popped off the screen at me were "updated needle bearings for the thrust washers". I don't have enough experience for first-hand observation, but I've seen comments about those sometimes being a problem. I really don't see a need for them. The original thrust washers lasted over seventy years, and the bronze ones will last even longer. That's one place where I think one solid part will prove better than a lot of little moving parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 01:13 am:

I thought the noise in mine was coming from the transmission area too........boy was I wrong!

>>> http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/281662.html?1334186889


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 06:48 am:

The needle thrust bearings in the rear end are not an improvement. Like many such "modernizations" they are misplaced technology that reduces your reliability without any benefit. They add complexity and reduce durability.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert bowers on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 10:33 pm:

Stephen when I changed the bands this winter I didnt see any cracks or any thing wrong with the triple gears or any other parts thru the top of the trans I also took the hogs head off and inspected the trans no visual problems I can tell you the car lurches and shutters when taking off in low and in reverse the noise when braking sounds like you are going up a rollercoaster before you free fall. I can tell you when this all started I was going faster than I should have when going around a corner and press the low and brake pedal at the same time and then there was a pop noise when I went around the corner but havent really noticed it when I go around the corners now. Steve, Craig and Royce Everyone thanks for all this help and info this is better than ruining any thing and any comments are very useful. If there is any more suggestions I'm all ears I have no problem taking out the diff I guess its eaiser than taking out the engiine and taking the trans apart. Craig I read the article you linked I also installed a roller bearing in the drive shaft tube closer to the ujoint I also live in Racine Wi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

Jack up both sides of your rear axle and check your axle end play, gear backlash, etc. You might be able to find your problem before you dismantle the rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 11:53 pm:

Hey Robert.......all the bearings down below were good.
Find the hole what allows access to remove the u-joint pin, rock a rear wheel back and forth and see what kind of end play there is at the joint. There shouldn't be any.
The new upper, flanged, bushing I got from Lang's fit like a glove!....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

Robert,

The trouble is in the rear end. The ratcheting sound you hear is the pinion gear teeth smacking the ring gear teeth as they slip by due to excessive clearance between the two. Regardless of what you've done to the rear end in the past, you've got a thrust bearing problem.

Also, "I also installed a roller bearing in the drive shaft tube closer to the u-joint" Bad idea. The roller bearing rollers are very hard, while your driveshaft is very soft, (comparatively). The roller bearing will eat up your driveshaft and the resulting crud will seize the roller bearing making things even worse.

Not everything that's offered for a Model T is necessarily an improvement just because it's different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By robert bowers on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:05 pm:

Ted, Craig and Jerry Thank you all Im going to work on the diff probably this week end if possible and when I find out what I come up with Ill let you all know but I do appericate all the help thanks again. Robert Bowers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

I'm always preaching that the first Model T parts people should buy are the Ford manual and the MTFCA books. If you don't have this one, I'd put it at the top of the shopping list.


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