15 T with carbide lights

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 15 T with carbide lights
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 09:11 am:

Has anyone ever noted that Ford used up the carbide headlamps on some early 15 T's and a bulb horn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 09:20 am:

From the Encyclopedia:

"(All lamps appeared alike, regardless of make. Early production 1915 lamps varied; made by E&J, they had larger brass rims and lenses (8-5/8 vs 8-1/8”) than later standard style lamps. Lamps were supplied by E & J, Brown, Victor and, perhaps others. Headlamp lenses were clear glass until 1921.) Steel headlight rims specified in a letter dated June 19, 1915.
Headlamps
6511X with large lens rim. (E&J 456) 6511X with brass lens rim. (standard) During the latter part of 1914 and perhaps early 1915, headlamps were fork-mounted, on the same forks as used by the carbide lamps. Early in 1915 the lamp with the riveted-in-place post became the standard. All were electric, powered by the magneto with the bulbs wired in series. Brass rims discontinued about June 1915."

Use of magneto horns began in January of 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 09:51 am:

Bob-
I have seen early closed cars with gas lights(fall 1914 production). Canadian '15s may have used gas lights, as well as the fork mounted electric lights.

I have seen some original photos of early '15 open cars (no open car production until January 1915) that had gas lights and/or straight rear fenders. If a car was assembled at a branch, whatever inventory they had, they put on a car. On cars built in Detroit I would expect that by the time they got to true 1915 model production, the gas lights would have been used up. Of course there would have been the occasional old inventory part that would have been used. Or the car could have been owned by someone who did not like those new-fangled E-lectric lights that kept burning out, so he took the old gas lights and generator off his old car and put the set on his 1915 model...

The bulb horn lasted well into 1915.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - 10:28 am:

I have an August 1914 introduction folder showing the Couplet, and Sedan. There are electric lights on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

I just picked up this Model T about 1 hour ago, this has the original radiator and firewall, and was never drilled for the headlight switch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:09 pm:

Excellent! We await the pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Here are a few pictures, I don't know why they mounted the horn where it is


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 02:35 pm:

Nice one! If I had more time, space, and money I'd be jealous.

A good suggestion I saw recently was to turn the key 180º (pointing up) so you don't kick it and shut off the engine while you're driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 03:57 pm:

Motor # 737582


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 04:04 pm:

1) Are you sure that is an original firewall? The way the paint has checked on the veneer looks typical for later reproduction or homemade plywood firewalls.

2) The body is 1917 or later because there is a notch in the cowl above the coil box. This was done to accommodate the radius rod when they went to the higher radiator in the 1917 model year. Actually, I think the body is much later than 1917 because a 1917 (as well as 1915 and 1916) body would have a block of wood where the bolt goes through the cowl.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

Bob,

I would tend to agree with Keith...it might be possible for early 15 closed cars to still have '14 'stuff'....if built by a branch as there was alot of mail traffic between branch and Highland on '14 leftover parts even into fall of 14...but the open cars did not come along for release until the calendar rolled over to '15 and would the '14 parts still have been leftover at branches?

So I guess who really knows?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 06:05 pm:

My experience with the 1915 "style" Canadian RHD cars are the electric lights came way first, then the curved rear guards. I have never seen an original photo of a 1915 Canadian 'T' with gas lights; all electric. Rear guards changed around the C23,000 mark.

The observations about the firewall seem to correct to me. The notch above the coil box in the cowl for the radiator support, same on the Canadian bodies shows it is a streamlined radiator body, so 1917 or later. An obvious little thing to watch when "original" bodies have been backdated. Dave C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 06:48 pm:

I have seen late 1914 T's with Fork mount electric lights....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - 06:51 pm:

Robert,

You have a very beautiful T to be proud of. And the engine serial number is from the Mar 31, 1915 engine logs. Which could mean the engine was assembled on Mar 31, 1915 or that the serial number was shipped to one of the branch assembly plants for them to stamp onto an engine that the branch assembled. If the branch assembled the engine it would normally be later than the date of the serial number in the engine log. (ref page 501 Bruce’s book also his CD “ Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia.” And it may or may not have been assembled into a car then – as complete engines were also shipped to branches for use in the cars assembled at the branch.

If you would like to discuss the possible different year parts that may be on your car – just let folks know. With some additional photos they can share a lot of information about the date range of the parts. Such as Erick’s observation about the “half moon” cut out and the body being later than 1915/16 [although I still suspect -- but have not been able to document one way or the other -- that there would have been a short time of overlap when Ford was producing both the black radiator as well as the end of the brass radiator cars. If that occurred then it is logical that Ford would have had all the bodies have the half moon cut out to allow them to be used on either chassis. That is another item that I am hoping the bodies that have a date code on them can help us establish one way or the other.] The unequal length windshield hinges (not shown but clearly unequal based on the distance of the top of the top windshield from the top of the cowl when the windshield is folded) along with the later 1917-1922 windshield bracket also point towards a later body. Note with Model Ts there is seldom a “black and white” single answer. For you could have an 1915 body that a previous owner replaced the top cowl and windshield with a later 1917-1922 top cowl panel and windshield. The1915-1922 cowls interchange on the bodies and an earlier 1915-1916 can have the half moon cut into it so it works well with the later black radiator support rod. If your body has body number with a date code such as the Wilson, Beaudett and some others – that could help establish the date of the body. [see the Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html for where to look – most likely on the right front floorboard riser – lift up the passenger floormat.)

Concerning the dash – I’m fairly sure it is not the original one. John Regan at his web site has the technical information on the dash shields that go below the coil box and cover the rear of the engine. There are a lot of details on those. Ford had the dash made to fit the 1915 cowl. And if a branch etc had installed gas lamps (so far I suspect a USA branch probably did not – and especially on a Mar 31, 1915 serial number engine) – there most likely would have been a hole for the light switch – as all the dashes were made to the drawings and the change cards. If you take a mirror and look at the wood construction of your dash, if it is original it will be composed of a solid core built of from wood planks and then covered with a veneer that most often bubbles and peels off the dash. For additional details on the dash please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/233265.html?1315074585
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/212081.html?1305773234
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159

Again – you have a beautiful T you can drive with lots of pride and fun. And if you have kids or grandkids – it will be a big hit with them also. Some folks enjoy driving their T, some folks enjoy working on them, some folks spend too much time cursing them because they didn’t spend enough time working on them – or they were just unlucky and some part failed that was installed at the factory – but that looked ok externally (for example many Model T Crankshafts already have very small cracks in them and they have been running like that for years), and some folks enjoy researching the history of their cars. Not a right or wrong but a preference. Again if you would like additional comments about dates of different parts etc. please let folks know, otherwise I’ll assume you would prefer to drive more and research less.

And safety! Be sure to check and replace the rear thrust washers if they are babbitt and show any sign of wear/tear etc. (Note Ford was still using bronze thrust washers up until sometime during 1915 see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rax1 and scroll down to part number 2528. For additional safety items please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/154102.html and do not panic – they have never all happened on the same car at the same time. All of them can also be prevented with proper maintenance and care.

And congratulations on a great looking touring!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 09:06 am:

Thank you for all the imput, I purchased this car from a man who was leaving the state and had to sell fast, he had the car sold but buyer did not up with the cash, I have been in the T industry most of my life and have seen just about everything but this ones different, the cowl or body could have been updated in the 40's when it was semi restored, very wierd thing is that the whole underneath is coated with undercoating, they said it was done for noise, I will check for body tag and thanks for all the information, here are a few pictures of some other toys, need to sell some, out of room, thanks Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 09:19 am:

Robert,

That's a really handsome looking Ford you've got there. The carbide headlamps do make the car look nicer. According to Mr. McCalley's book (sound of trumpets blowing and angels singing), Ford kept using the forked headlamp mounts for a while before switching over to the more familiar, single-stem type we're used to seeing as mounts for the electric lamps, so it's also likely Mr. Ford would have also continued his frugal practice of using up old stock— in this case, carbide headlamps—before switching over to the electrics. Your carbide headlamps do look nicer, as do the squeeze-bulb horn and unpainted wheel spokes.

Steve,

I've made a habit of inserting the ignition key upside-down as you suggested and my right foot is much happier for it. Key fobs also get in the way, so I used an old shoe-lace to make a small loop and use that to hang the key on a peg when not in use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 09:46 am:

Bob-
Please post more, or send me an E-mail with more pictures of that beautiful '11 touring. From the picture you posted it looks like a wide sill type of late 11.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:23 am:

Thanks Keith, this is a Ray Wells body and one of his 1st, the pictures are hard to get in this small place, I am building this car as a driver, has rebuilt R.V. Anderson coil box w/ new coils, acc. steel fellow rims, interior and top by Elizabeth, here is the part that fools every one, this is a 1915 Model T chassis, and I was going to build a 15 till I got this body, so I built it for a driver, has not been driven yet, have all the lamps, carbide gen. horn, new brass works radiator all new sheet metal, this will be a fun car, thanks Bob
if you want pics let me know


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:32 am:

While the written word says that an open car PROBABLY would not have had carbide lamps, the who knows still can bear as there was a lot of written traffic back and forth from the branches as to 'lot's' of left over '14 stuff due to the poor selling of the '14. It seems as though the answer was use up all the 14 stuff on the new '15 model closed cars as thats the only thing they built in the fall and through January '15 but we may also be surmising that everything was used up before the intro of the open cars.

FWIW I'd tend to generally agree with some of the cowl comments...but have also found a mis-mash in the cowl area on other barn find '15's that are otherwise 'pure' with the finer details that most usually do miss on creating a '15...right down to firewalls that do actually look pretty much like the picture!

Me, I generally play both sides of the spectrum depending on which car. Have a few pure as pure as conventional wisdom goes...have the most fun with a bitsey that is a slap together of leftovers and looks pretty darned good.

I don't think I would be quick to change out ANY '15 in the first months of production based on a he said-she said unless a prior owner told me they had in fact changed something. FORDISM struggled with major change, time and again...over and over...and forget judging guidelines or 'conventional wisdom'. I have a late '15 and it's pure...but if I come across an early and it shows 14/15, I wouldn't change a thing! But thats me.

I'll share a story...sort of explains why I find myself open-minded on some of this transition year stuff for any transition. Back before we had the bible and other things, back when closed cars were not just barn finds they were permanent barn monuments, my piggy-bank started itching but life got in the way of adding change to it...so I settled on a barn monument and had it dragged out and spent a summer making it presentable and runable...1925 Fordor.

Unfortunately, I lived within 2 miles of a whole stable of national guru's of the time, several of the other clubs Stynoski builders etc. They constantly harped on me that I had replacement splash aprons (square type) and that I had bead under front fenders. Cheap enough, ought to put it right! They just wouldn't let up. So I go to Hershey that year, early, in a time when you get get through one or two fields surface spotting before dinner...and I buy a perfect set of 'correct' front fenders and pick up a set of curved splash shields that were all but new. Hung them in the garage, Northern Illinois winters cars hibernated for the winter in unheated garages, I'd get to it in spring. Then Bruce first book came out before I got around to it...and lo' and behold...my, my...'25 closed cars...square splash aprons, hidden fender beads!

Now decades later those 'acquired' parts are now hanging in the attic and those 'originals' are STILL on the car!

Point/counterpoint...conventional wisdom has a habit of changing :-) and I'd be really miffed had I done the swap out that everyone was trying to convince me I really needed to 'belong'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:34 am:

Robert - My T is an early original/unrestored 1915 Touring. Engine # 679,233. This is a January car. It has a bulb horn mounted under the hood (bulb mounted to the column) electric lights (non fork), Stewart Speedo and a 12-rivet rear left over from the 14 production. This is mentioned in Bruce's book. The pedals are ribbed. The rear body panels still have the straight bead for the 14 style rear fenders. I pay a lot of attention to the 15's to see what details they have but I still haven't seen one I could say was delivered from henry with gas lights. That is not to say it didn't happen though. Nice car and shop you have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:36 am:

Robert - My T is an early original/unrestored 1915 Touring. Engine # 679,233. This is a January car. It has a bulb horn mounted under the hood (bulb mounted to the column) electric lights (non fork), Stewart Speedo and a 12-rivet rear left over from the 14 production. This is mentioned in Bruce's book. The pedals are ribbed. The rear body panels still have the straight bead for the 14 style rear fenders. I pay a lot of attention to the 15's to see what details they have but I still haven't seen one I could say was delivered from henry with gas lights. That is not to say it didn't happen though. Nice car and shop you have.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:37 am:

Here are some pics, excuse all the dust
We make the steering wheels here also


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

David Chantrell, something that may interest you, Canadian september 1915 Ford Times,Catalog section, round rear guards, that would put the build back to the high 16000 mark?, (late August)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

oops, disreguard that David I'm a year out on that. the 23000 would be right.
But the late 15 is still showing the bulb horn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 12:23 am:

There was an old pic of an early '15 with carbide lamps and elect.cowl lamps here a few days ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 01:17 am:

Speaking of conventional wisdom. For some years, back in the '50s/'60s, it was believed and heavily argued that 1915 open Ts all had hand Klaxon horns from the factory. We now know that was not true. A very good friend of mine had a very nice, restored from solid original, June 1915 touring car. When it was restored (before he got it), a hand Klaxon was of course installed. However, the very original wood firewall clearly showed the holes for the bulb horn mounted under the hood and wear from having been there. So bulb horns were used at least as late as June '15.
I also saw that old photo posed a few days ago. Gas lamps on an early '15. Still, they could have been changed out for a picky customer. That, also, did happen more than a few times.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 06:45 am:

Bulb horn by his knee on this brand new '15......


Typical 1915 horn installation....

1915 Firewalls being assembled at the factory. The horn tube / bulb is hanging just below the speedometer on the firewall to the right.

The correct horn tube routing showing the 1915 only horn tube elbow and original upper mounting bracket. Neither of these parts is reproduced to my knowledge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 07:42 am:

Here is one car we know as we still have the Duncan & Fraser Ltd.'s receipt. C21160 sold on 2nd June 1915. Note the rear guards; electric lights first then came the curved rear mudguards. I believe this is a question in a 1915 thread on the forum at the moment. As I said on that thread I have never seen a Canadian 1915 with carbide lights, specially not one with curved rear guards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 10:49 am:

That car also has the "early '15" cowl lamps, often seen on the closed cars made in late '14 and Jan. of '15 here in the US.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 09:14 pm:

Better picture of that car. It has fork mounted headlamps, typical of Canadian 1915 production.


Here's another Canadian 15:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

How about the flat rear fenders in the pic Royce posted.... I've heard that never happened in 1915 as well I guess a picture is worth a 1000 words.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 05:02 pm:

With tremendous response from 1915 Canadian 'T' owners still with original cars around the world we now know the curved rear mudguard came in around the C23,XXX mark. Another dating point nailed for us.

Thanks to everybody; a wonderful achievement for this forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Lets move to the front, a photo of 2x 1915 T's, one with billed fenders and the other not!


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