Wide Tracks: How rare/valuable

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Wide Tracks: How rare/valuable
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

I asked this a couple of years back but I don't think I ever got an answer. So how rare is a Southern Wide Track and if you were to find one, how much extra would you expect to have to pay over and above the price of a normal T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

I would say they're fairly rare, a wild guess of 1.0%?

As to value. I don't believe they're any more valuable. Frankly, I wouldn't even want one. That's just me however.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 01:31 pm:

According to Rick Harrison on Pawn Stars: rarity doesn't always equal $$$. In fact it may not be desireable at all in this case. I know if I had one I'd break a piece that isn't readily available from the vendors and be up the creek. Rare? I guess they are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 02:09 pm:

I've never seen a wide-track T. But I'm having a wide-track 1912 Buick Model 35 (the smallest of the 3 Buick touring cars that year) restored. And a friend has a wide-track 1911 Cadillac.

It's interesting how different manufacturers approached the wide-track problem. My Buick has normal width fenders, but the aprons flare way out to keep the fenders centered over the wheels. My friend's Cadillac has normal aprons, but humongously wide fenders to cover the widely-spaced wheels. How did Ford do it?

Gil Fitzhugh, Morristown, NJ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 02:20 pm:

Hal,

Now that's a good and interesting one!

There may be less of them, they had a reason to exist in their day, but I wouldn't drool to want one and would probably discount the 'wide' as being a liability if the greatest deal on earth came my way and it wouldn't be such a good deal. All for the same reasons stated above.

Now, if 1% were a good guess as to survivors, and a guy who already had a bunch of 'wides' offered to buy one from me that I owned, like all the rest here...I might think differently, but not by much. 'Uniqueness' and 'limited edition' is always in the eye of the buyer :-):-):-)

That's the trouble with these things, if I had the where-with-all to buy a totally done '09, the present pricings, even the old prices wouldn't faze me a bit...but to find a 'good' one with a zillion miles on it at maybe 1/2 to 2/3 the price? No dice...something about 10K or so for a basic block if required is the deal killer... even though each probably has the same probability of throwing a chunk...lol Others wouldn't even skip a beat and probably be emotionally willing to overpay for a bit of a ratty just because it is a '09!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 04:30 pm:

Parts should not be more difficult to get than any of the pre-14 cars. Front axle, rear axle housing and rear spring would be on the list of harder to find. Rear axles are available from the vendors and rebuilt parts are mostly the same for rear ends, front ends etc. Engine and transmission are the same.
For unknown reasons, I like the odd-ball cars.
See my profile on the 1922 aftermarker coupe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 05:26 pm:

The real pain is when you go to put it on a trailer built for a model T.
I was given a trailer made for a wide track when the owner got his T totaled out.
I took 4 inches out of the center of the rear half and two inches of each side of the front part, now I can haul A's and T's.
I would say a wide track has the same value. It is a pain sometimes but it is rarer to make up for it.
I have never seen anyone real impressed over the fact that a T is a wide track.
My guess would be 1% are wide.
1916 was the last year.
I have seen standard track cars with a wide track front axle. It puts the wheels out even with the front fenders. You can spot them if you look for them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gerald J. Roberts - Hershey, PA on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 05:49 pm:

Anyone have a picture for comparison of the two?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 08:05 pm:

Gerald,

Please see additional photos and comments at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/135963.html

From the posting on the MTFCI site there are some photos and a good summary: http://www.modelt.org/discus/messages/2/2075.html?1221518898
Ford offered a 60 inch tread for the southern roads as early as 1908 (part numbers are listed in the 1908 Price List of Parts but not the 1907 Price List of parts). It was clearly available on the S Roadster – as the wider fenders etc. were listed in the 1908 price list of parts.

From the May Jun 1996 “Vintage Ford” page 26 (used by permission)

by Russ Furstnow
Flagstaff, Arizona

A distinctive and unique Model T, known as the
“wide track” or “Dixie tread,” was produced on a
limited basis by Ford from 1909-1916.
The car looked quite different from a “regular”
Model T because the wheels were placed 60 inches
apart rather than the standard 56 inches.
The wide track Ford was made to be driven in
the southern United States, including Florida,
Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama, as these states
produced horse-drawn wagons with a 60” wide
track. Ford surmised that it would be easier to sell
his cars in the south if his cars would track in the
60” ruts produced by the wagons.
In the northern states, the 56 inch “standard”
tread worked fine, yet when the standard track
Ford went south, drivers had difficulty maintaining
control of their Fords while driving in the wider
ruts left by wagons.
The wide track Ford had numerous parts which
made it unique. Also, this option made the Model
T appear more massive and stable when driven on
a good paved highway-or at least, it was more
stable than the 56 inch standard tread car.
Early versions of the wide track Fords (1909-
12) had wider fenders, aprons and running board
brackets that were unique, yet the fender line was
smooth and appeared to “fit” together. (See Photos
1 & 2.)
In 1913, Ford began to utilize the “standard”
apron and running board brackets, necessitating
the use of very wide appearing fenders. (See Photo
3.) These fenders extended beyond the standard
width running board, making the car look somewhat
ungainly. These wider fenders were used
until 1916, when Ford discontinued this option.
The 60” tread Ford was identified in the sales
brochures as a special order option. It is assumed
that the cost of the standard and wide track models
were the same. This assumption is based on the fact
that Ford’s Price List of Parts did not add a premium
for the unique 60” tread parts over the standard
56” parts.
It is unknown how many wide track Fords were
produced, as no records have been found identifying
the production figures for these unique vehicles.
However, it is believed that a very small
percentage of Model Ts produced were ordered with
the wide track option.
The demise of the wide track was likely caused
by three factors: improvement in road conditions,
decreasing demand, and Ford’s need for stand-
ardization. The quality of roads in America were
improving and the mud and deeply rutted roads
were becoming the exception rather than the rule.
With improving roads, the demand for the wide
track option is believed to have declined.

If you go to the Louisiana State University archives and view the picture at: http://www.louisianadigitallibrary.org/cdm4/item_v iewer.php?CISOROOT=/GFM&CISOPTR=928&CISOBOX=1&REC= 7 it clearly shows how the back wheels of the wagon hauling cotton. Those would have been a standard 60 inch tread and you can see that making it 4 inches closer could cause the rear wheels to hit the bale of cotton when it was turned sideways on the wagon.

Many of the companies offered the wide track version of their cars. Metz solved it by having wheels that had an offset hub. Turned one way the hubs gave a 56 inch tread. Taken off and turned around the other way they gave a 60 inch tread.

And below is comparison of the wide track front axle on top and the standard width axle on bottom. There may be some distortion due to make the photos close to the same size at the front engine mount and the spring perches.



I try to use the distance between the "U-bolts" to determine if the photo is or is not of a wide track.

From the same Mar - Apr 1971 Vintage Ford page 31 (used by permission to promote our hobby and club) is the photo the wide track front axle was used for the comparison measurements (this one is a 1915).



Below is the right rear fender showing it is wider than the standard axle rear fender but that the runnning board is the same as the normal 1915 running board (remember some years different parts were changed to make it all fit ok).



Below is a photo of the entire car:



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 08:09 pm:

I enjoy showing our T's and pointing out the unique features to interested parties. Being born and raised in the South, I find the feature appealing. It would be really neat to show one and point out that feature, especially, if there was a normal 56" T to compare it to.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Back in 1970, I had a 1913 wide track touring that I bought from Houston collector, Charlie Worthen. It was completely original and had nice, paint ready sheet metal. Only problem was, someone had changed the front and rear axles to standard tread. I had the tough decision of whether to find the almost impossible wide track axles and rear spring, or buy new reproduction fenders. A friend told me that a collector, Walter Virnau, living 20 miles from me had the complete wide track front axle, which I obtained. Another lead took me to Galveston Island. An elderly man, there, had the two wide track rear axle housings, axle shafts, and rear spring. All I had to do was recut the keyways on the shafts and assemble the axle. I didn't have to travel more than 95 miles to complete the car. What are the chances of this kind of luck? I don't remember seeing another wide track for sale in the Houston area, since then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:27 pm:

Here are pictures of a wide track and standard axle next to each other which may be easier to see the difference.

I purchased these (front and Back ) to build a speedster which I think will make it that much better by being wider.
wide track01
wide track02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 07:52 am:

My dad knows more about Model T's than Rick Harrison does. People just don't walk in everyday and pawn/sell their T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By doug hauge upstate NY stittville 13469 on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:20 am:

this is a 14 that was at hershey a few years ago


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

One of the Neunhoffers (I get my Neunhoffers mixed up sometimes cause all of them have nice Model T's) in central Texas has a real nice unrestored wide track 1916 touring. I posted pictures on the forum of it at the Texas T party several years ago but can't seem to find them.

Perhaps Willie will see this and post some pictures of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

Royce, yes it is a very nice unrestored wide track that the Neunfoffers have. I sure that somewhere in my files I have a photo of it, but have not found it. I believe it is earlier than 1916, maybe 1911??
The interesting thing is where they found the car. Only 2 or 3 miles from where they live. Unbelievable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan Woolf on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

Wide track cars are not extremely rare especially if you are located in the Southeastern part of the US. I have probably seen 15 or more over the last 40 years. My brother has a 1911 touring that is a wide track car and he has the build sheet for it. 60 inch tread was an option from Ford.

As to the value of a wide track car I have always contended they shouldn't be valued more than a standard track car. In some regards they are probably worth a bit less just because some of the parts are harder to find.

Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 09:30 pm:

I would definitely give more for a wide track if it had all the correct running gear under it.
If some of the wide track parts were missing, I would not be that eager to buy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J Berch on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 09:52 pm:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/110443.html

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/238567.html?1317436754


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 01:02 am:

Julius is the owner.


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