Tar Babies

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Tar Babies
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Hageli on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 10:41 pm:

There was a thread a while ago about the Scandinavia band linings. The tar babies, they didnt hold up too long. I was wondering if the linings were soaked in a solvent to remove the tar coating would that correct the problem, and has anyone done this?
Mike Hageli
Elmhurst IL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:02 pm:

Why fight it with inferior products, Mike?

Wood linings don't rust, rot, bust,
crack, chip or peel,
nor shed, neither.

Wood bearings and bushings have been around since the invention of the wheel, almost.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:30 pm:

"Why fight it with inferior products, Mike?"

"Wood bearings and bushings have been around since the invention of the wheel, almost."

Michael, you are asking a question that will bring out the worst of this forum. Try asking about a water pump or what oil you need to use in a T.

I have run Kevlar bands for the last 1/4 century. I will use them in the next T I build. I drive a lot of miles in my T's every year. Do not use the tar babies.

Your mileage may vary and several folks will disagree with me. Dont care if they do.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

Even removing the tar,(or whatever it is) will leave you with a very thin ,flimsy band. A total waste of time to install.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, April 26, 2012 - 11:52 pm:

Jack nailed it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 12:00 am:

Michael,

I have never run wood bands. They may be fine. I have had good results with kevlar bands and have been in the hobby long enough to have been able to use good cotton bands. In my opinion even the origional cotton bands are inferior to kevlar.

Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 03:57 am:

How come i have found the new cotton linings ok? Slipping them makes them wear but aside from that they work for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 07:00 am:

I heard a guy last weekend say something to the effect of "I put in a set of Scandanavias in 1982, but I'm gonna replace them with Kevlar." 30 years? Sounds pretty good to me. However, I use wood in both of ours


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 07:31 am:

Hal, guess back in 1982 the Scandinavians were still good. Perhaps that guys T hasn't been driven much since then, though?

Anybody with a photo of the good old denser woven Scandinavian bands? Someone wrote recently they had white text?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Sumner lapeer mi on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 08:17 am:

Here is the original Scandinavian band material.Les
band lineing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 09:37 am:

I used the same set of Scandanavian bands, purchased from Snyder's in 1970, in my '26 Model T Coupe for 40 years and only changed them in 2010, because I was doing a total engine rebuild and figured I might as well change them even though they looked good. I had bought a set of Kevlar bands to use and after much questioning on the forum in which many complained that the Kevlar were so hard and durable that they were attributed to numerous cases of cracked drums from overheating, I decided to go with Guinns wood bands, since I had heard only good things about them, so I ordered them and installed them while I had the hogshead off by sliding them over the rear of the transmission as advised, because trying to install them through the transmission access hole could result in cracks and/or breakage to the wood bands (the only bad thing I heard). I have never used Kevlar bands, so I really can't say anything bad about them (only what I have heard), but I can say that based upon my experience and the smooth, superb way in which my transmission now functions, I am an avid advocate of Guinns wood bands and recommend them highly. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:09 am:

I put Kevlar in my T over 7 years ago and have only adjusted the bands 2 times, this is the first set I've ever used as far as I can tell they are a great investment , I know folks say they heat up and will crack the transmission drums my opinion is any band could heat a drum and crack it..... I think a lot of it is driver error and some of us aren't man enough to say we slip the low gear while pulling off from a dead stop, my Dad does this I get on to him every time he drives his T !
Hey my drums may crack tomorrow but it won't be because I slip the band, I always pay close attention and ensure I get a positive even pressure and make sure I feel the band lock up the drum in low and reverse with no slipping. I for one think this is key to protect your trans, drums.
I'll bet all these cracked drums we hear about all have good bushing in them......right? There's no way a old worn out bushing could aid in cracking your drum.... Aahhhh it's easier to blame it on those pesky old Kevlar bands.... 7;^{0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:26 am:

The reason the older style cotton bands such as the original Scandanavia, Montgomery Wards and a few others lasted longer than the cotton bands made today is the way they were made.
The older bands have a much denser and tighter weave.
If a company could make cotton bands with the tighter and denser weave they would last longer.
No, they wouldnt last like Kevlar but they would be good to use.
Kevlar bands made today have pretty much the same weave as the current made cotton bands but they last much longer because of the kevlar material not because of the weave tightness.
I read somwhere that the weaving machines that produced the tight weave are not used anymore.
They are woven like most common belting.
Just my two cents worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 12:34 pm:

I think the "Need" for Kevlar is a result of poor driving habits. The "Desire" for Kevlar may be another story. I think the folks who actually "Need" Kevlar will be the ones who are more apt to crack a drum with them. I've had wood in my TT for 4 years, drive it every weekend, and have not adjusted them but maybe once since the initial break in.

We went on a tour and had some folks ride with us that had rode with others in the past. They asked me why our car "don't make that noise" in low and reverse. THAT is why I don't "NEED" Kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 01:12 pm:

As one of the toughest fabrics on earth, used in the manufacture of military helmets and bullet proof vests, there is no questioning the durability of Kevlar, but how is it in the absorption and retention of oil and its' ability to transfer and quickly dissipate heat? The problem may be that, under stressful driving conditions, the intense heat generated between the drum surface and the Kevlar band lining may evaporate the oil and prevent new oil from getting through or under the hot Kevlar fabric to the surface of the drum before the heat becomes too much and the drum cracks. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison, Portland Oregon on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 02:07 pm:

Gentleman,

I don't think the new Scandinavia linings are the "problem child" that there are made out to be...and I don't really understand the absolute dislike for them.

I have posted about bands, what to use and the new Scandy's before...all I got was ""Why fight it with inferior products?" and "A total waste of time to install...go with Kevlar"

I know some have had problems with them...but I don't think that the linings are at fault.

When my friend's well traveled '19 Touring needed new bands to replace the old Scandinavian linings, we decided to try out the newer Kevlar linings, but they gave use more problems then we ever would have imagined. They would never seat correctly causing them to slip on ANY grade (and reverse) and no matter how we adjusted them (as instructed, the way the old Scandy's were or based on recommendations from this forum) we NEVER could get them to work right. We checked the pedal cam wear, the pedals, the bands, the drums....everything we and other T'ers could think of, yet after months of messing with it...we switched her back to Scandinavia's.

Since then (7 or 8 years ago) we have had ZERO issues and ZERO adjustments on the bands. My friend had always sworn by Scandinavia linings but said "the old one are the best"...so I was under the impression that he had a stash of NOS Scandinavia linings....but when I dug out the boxes, they were the same repro Sentex Scandinavia linings I had just bought.

Further more I found that the bands that were in my roadster when I pulled it apart...are the new Scandinavia linings and I had 5 years with no problems and our new T speedster also has the repop Scandy's and we have had no issues with them either.

I feel that the problems seen with these bands are most likely caused by bad or scored drums and of course..driving habits.

I'm only 27, so I haven't had the years and experience that some here have and I don't claim to know everything...This is just what I have seen first hand and my experience.

..Just my $.02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 03:26 pm:

We had Scandinavia linings in a 1923 Roadster they were in for 12-13 years, if I need bands and had a set I wouldn't think twice about using them. My point is worn parts and driver error ie: slipping the band due to not fully engaging the pedal has to play a significant part in cracking drums. I'm 100% sure I could crack a drum no matter what band material was being used, just by running up hill and letting it slip.
By the way the Scandinavia linings were still in the 23 when Dad sold the car..... So that put them at close to 15 years old. I may give wood a try on the next Change out.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison, Portland Oregon on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

I'm with you Steve.

I can also see worn drums with sharp grooves or edges destroying a set of Scandinavia's in fairly short amount of time.....so would bad driving habits, that will mess bands up really quick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:03 pm:

Well that's interesting...if that photo is what the original Scandinavians are, then I've been running the new ones for the last 6 years, hardly ever adjusting them. I guess I'm the only one on this forum who likes them and gets long life.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 02:29 am:

No you are not the only one, The new bands work for me too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 04:00 am:

Don't forget guys, band wear and service life has a lot to do with the terrain that you are driving in also. Here in our small town, it is very hilly, I am on the brakes, shifting up and down all of the time. The gearing on my '25 coupe is just right to be wrong. Once I get out in the river bottom, it works great. I am in the process of getting a Chicago three speed transmission installed one of these days, it will make a BIG difference. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

I have wood linings on the first T I bought. They have been on for 20 years and rarely need any adjustment. They don't slip. Do, however chatter a little.

I have Kevlar on 2 T's. One has been on for over 10 years with no problems. It does not chatter.

I was favorably impressed with Kevlar so I used them on my 3rd T. After cracking 2 drums I think I have it right and it works fine without chattering. It has been at least a year since I cracked a drum, so I am hoping that will not happen again.

I think the new yellow Kevlar bands are a bit thicker than the older ones, and it is very important to adjust them loose enough to eliminate drag at idle or in high gear. I don't think shifting with Kevlar is the cause of the problem unless one were to use low on a long pull without holding the pedal firmly. When you hold the pedal firmly, there is no friction on the band. It only has friction for a few seconds when you first apply the band, if you do it right.

My problem, as I found after ruining 2 drums, was that the correct adjustment happened when the floorboards were out, and when I installed the floorboard, I had to tighten the adjustment which caused drag. I was able to correct the problem by bending the pedal. I also had installed a new repro. shaft, and it is possible that holes were not drilled in the proper place. I don't know what would have happened if I had continues to use the old shaft. You need to adjust it so that when your car is running on a level floor in neutral, it won't creep either forward or backward. It should also not move when you turn the crank in neutral. And you should be able to push the car in neutral without the engine turning over.

Norm


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration