How often should modern coolant be changed?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: How often should modern coolant be changed?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:13 am:

Back in December of 2010, I had just completed my complete engine overhaul and was ready to pour in the fluids and fire her up, so I began a thread on what the best oil and coolant to use, is, here in Central Florida (www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/174665.html. It was a lively discussion and from it, I decided on a 50:50 mixture of Peak, Zerex IAT (In organic Acid Technology) anti-freese.

In past threads, from years ago, I read that, at some point, over time, anti-freeze can deteriorate from preventing corrosion to actually contributing to corrosion and accelerate the deterioration to the cast iron block and radiator from the inside.

I have also read on the Forum that the coolant should be changed out as often as every year, but I never change out the anti-freeze in my modern Ford truck and there has never been any adverse reactions. If coolant change outs in a modern vehicle are unnecessary, then why is it necessary in a Model T and why does the anti-freeze not deteriorate in a modern vehicle and become just as much a concern as in a Model T?

Since I have not seen this discussed lately, things may have changed with the new antifreeze formulas and since it has been almost a year and a half since I put in my antifreeze, I figured I needed an up to date opinion. What say you all regarding the frequency of changing out modern antifreeze in the Model T?

Thank you.

Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:54 am:

In the fall I check the freeze point of my coolants in all my vehicles and adjust if necessary. Other than a repair that requires draining the coolant I haven't changed any and have never had a problem related to not changing it. Maybe the next guy that owns the vehicle will though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:58 am:

Jim


I run approx a mix 50% of distilled water and anti-freeze in my T's, just up north of you. We maybe have 2 or 3 days below 32, so its not the freezing I worry about, but rusting away of the old iron.

A T block is now about 100 years old, and the insides are rusting as I type, less so if the motor is hot and running, but sitting, that coolant is rusting the iron. So each spring I flush the entire system. You will be surprised how much rust and particles come out even after a fresh rebuild, tanked block, and head,...that old iron wants to rust away.



A look at the cutaway shows the unmachined raw cast surface of iron that has lots of surface area to rot away, flaking off pieces of iron rust into the radiator, so you are best to flush and drain and refill each season to be rid of those particles that will clog the radiator over time.

Its not the anti freeze coolant that 'ages' away or looses it ability to work, its the rusting and rust particles that build up over that short time of 12 months that you need to get rid off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

Someone once posted that over time the coolant gets acidic and galvanic corrosion is the result. They actually recommended checking for voltage with a volt meter between the radiator and the coolant, and had a recommended voltage level at which to change the coolant. Sorry, but I don't remember what it was, but maybe they will post again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

Interesting Hal. Wouldn't it be funny if a motometer with a voltmeter incorporated were discovered to address this phenomenon?

Dan, the clean pitted surface shown in your photo is how the interior of my block looked after I had the block dipped, cleaned and flushed prior to rebuilding. I hope, in using a good antifreeze, I can keep it looking that clean and prevent any further deterioration and/or pitting. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 01:34 pm:

Good independent auto shops have test strips for antifreeze. They check the pH of the coolant. Having one of these shops check the system once a year would not be out of order. There is no need to replace the antifreeze until the mix is less than 50-50, or the pH is out of range.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

Well, I finally re-registered as I haven't been able to post since the last forum hickup.

Hal, I may have been the poster you were referring to concerning the checking of anti-freeze with a volt meter.

Some folks may remember Carl Davis who used to attend the MTFCI national tours. Carl was a long time friend of the family and a farm tractor mechanic for years. One day I stopped to see him back when I was in college and he said, "you need to see this". He had a 786 International pulled apart for an engine overhaul with much less that 1,000 hours on the engine. One of the sleeves had what looked like pin holes in it. He then told me that bad anti-freeze was the culprit. When tested with a volt meter that anti-freeze was producing about 7 tenths of a volt. It was creating a constant arc inside and bored its way right through the cylinder wall.

Carl said one of the biggest mistakes people make is looking at nice clean green anti-freeze and then after seeing it will float 5 balls in the tester call it good. He advocated testing with a volt meter by dropping one lead into the liquid and grounding the other to the radiator tank. If you see 3 tenths or more you need to change anti-freeze.

That particular tractor was maybe 6-7 years old with the original anti-freeze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 02:05 pm:

One way to find out if it's time to change the antifreeze is to test it. Several suppliers make special antifreeze test strips that react to the pH (alkalinity) of the coolant and change color. If the test strip indicates a marginal or bad condition, the coolant should be changed.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

Can these "Anti-freeze test strips" be obtained from an auto parts distributor such as Advanced Auto Parts or AutoZone, or must they be purchased from an independent distributor? If the latter, any idea who to purchase them from? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 02:28 pm:

I found this online. www.ehow.com/how_7872430_read-ph-aintifreeze-test.html. We have a ph kit for testing our pool. I'm going to try those strips to test my antifreeze. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 02:38 pm:

I'm wondering if in using the pool water ph test strips and the ph color chart that comes with the pool water test kit, if the green color of the antifreeze will alter the color of the ph color chart to which you compare the wettened strip with. If so, does this mean that a different ph color chart comes with an antifreeze ph test strip kit? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

Gary
Your mechanic friend may well have been on to something with testing the coolant,
but modern science has apparently come up with a different “cause and effect”.
Here are some excerpts from an discussion of the problem . . .
“Although the cylinder liners are pressed into the block, wet cylinder liner design does not have the same
structural rigidity as a cast block design. Under-concentration of coolant treatment additives will result in
liner pitting and engine failure.”
“Liner pitting is caused by vapor bubbles formed when the piston strikes the liner during engine operation.
The energy generated during the combustion process and the side-to-side motion of the piston causes the
liner to vibrate at a very high frequency. The liner moves away from the coolant fast enough to form vapor
bubbles. The vapor bubbles collapse against the liner surface as the liner moves back into the coolant.
The implosion of the vapor bubble against the liner surface produces a very high velocity jet of water.
This water jet removes material from the liner surface. The jet of water acts on the liner surface with a
pressure exceeding 15,000 psi. This process repeats again and again, resulting in liner pitting.”

Posting the further discussion of antifreeze types and additives would have created a oversized post,
but can if desired be followed up on at this link . . .
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/tdrarticles/tdrarticle62_antifreeze.html

I have a case of the GM additive (and no GM vehicles) used to combat this problem, but have not as
yet figured out if it will benefit or damage any conventional gas engines that I have, so it sits on my
shelf in a box well covered with hazard warnings.

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Conklin on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 06:25 pm:

I remember medium duty Caterpillar truck engines requiring a specific additive to prevent pitting as Art mentioned. This was a number of years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 08:15 pm:

Most all diesel engines use some type of coolant additive for the reason Art has said. We always called it cavatation for lake of a better word. Most newer trucks come with a water filter with the additive in it that you change out when needed, ergo the test strips. Or you can run a product such as nal-cool that you add as needed. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

It's called cavitation erosion. It is a problem with wet cylinder liners. Looks like:




For pickups, GM and Ford/Navistar seems to have the problem and Dodge/Cummins does not. The Cummins B5.9 and 6.7 liter engines are a cast block design and do not have wet or removable sleeves.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Friday, April 27, 2012 - 10:44 pm:

The reason for distilled water is to reduce the conductivity of the liquid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Button III (Chip), Lake Clear, NY on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 12:16 am:

What is the best way to flush the engine while it is in the car? I was hoping not to have to take the hoses off because it can be tough to get them back on and not leak. I also would like to flush the radiator.I don't use any anti- freeze during the summer, but store it for the winter with anti-freez incase the heat goes out in my garage. I do use distilled water, but have had to put "regular water' in on occasion. ( didn't mean to steal the thread, but while on the topic)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, April 28, 2012 - 04:33 am:

Doug that is interesting. I was told a long time ago that distilled water wouldn't carry an electrical current and you couldn't be shocked by it if a hot wire was dropped in it and you had your hand in it. I never tried it. Also, another good reason to use distilled water is the lack of minerals that can coat the cooling system, obviously. Dave


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