OK - this was not as expected! it was worse (I think)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: OK - this was not as expected! it was worse (I think)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

Last summer I told you about my horror experience on vacation with my Ford in the island of Bornholm.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/227126.html?1312143933

Over the winter I have prepared a new gearbox an this weekend I finally took out the engine and took off hogshead and the oilpan....

Remember that I believed the web on the reverse drum was gone and that was what made the awfull sound when I drove in low. Reverse did not work at all.

That was NOT the case. All drum where intact, but the 3 planet wheels where completely loose. I disassembled the clutch and removed the clutchhub. Now the whole gearassembly should be possible to slide off the axle. Nope - it was stock. I then took off the flywheel from the crankshaft, and now I could hit the gearaxle with a rubber hammer, and that made it all fall apart. 2 of the planet wheel taps where loose in the flywheel, but all was alse turning free on the wheels. The center wheel was pretty easy to pull off, and now I could slide the brake drum off but low and reverse hubs where stuck together!!! The clearance in the large bushing may have been to narrov, I think I changed it when i overhauled engine and gear and did not ream it as it slided right on with some clearance.

Anyway - here is what I think happend:

I was driving up a loooong hill and had to change down in low for the last maybe 200-300 meters. On top I quickly changed to high and moved forward. 3,5 km (2 miles) on approaching a crossroad i braked by shutting down the throttle and when at a feasible speed, engaged low in order to brake using the engine further and then approach slowly towards the crossroad. Doing this engagement, the horrible noise immidiate started and I think the two hubs was already stuck here. The horrible sound was the planetwheels crunching as the two drums now spin at same speed.

Here you can see how loose the planet wheels where before I took it apart: http://youtu.be/yAAQiOHhtp0

Here you can see the two hubs that are stuck together:


You can also see the scoars in the bushing in the low gear hub.

The axle on the brakedrum axle is scoared as well:


Already when I removed the hogshead, I could see that some excessive wear had happend as there where a lot of oilsnask with steel particles at all the magnets:


Tomorrow it is assembly time. There is a few things that will be done differently this time ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul griesse--Granville,Ohio on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

Micheal---What do the triple gears look like? Paul


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 10:48 am:

Apart from what you can see in the video clip above, here is a picture of one the the triplegears:

The two nearest the flywheel basically looks OK but the last one have all teeth rounded. This fits with that the two central gears engaged in the two nearest the flywheel are handling low which actually worked but sounded awful while the gear engaged in the reverse have not been engaged correctly because the reverse drum was tight with the low.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 10:53 am:

Another discovery was that one of the oil guides on the connect rods had lost the guiding part:

I have found the missing part in the pan :-/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 11:07 am:

Check your main bearings carefully. The crankshaft could be dropped down in the crankcase causing the rods to hit the dips in the bottom of the pan. Especially check the rear main which is closest to the transmission.

It looks to me that the transmission needs to be completely rebuilt with new gears. Even if you were to rebush it and make it work it will always be noisy and life will be short if you reuse those gears.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you do the more complete job, you won't have to do it again soon.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 11:59 am:

Michael,

Did you replace the triple gear pins (as we in the U.S. call them) in the flywheel prior to this problem ? And how much time/driving did you have on the engine/trans. prior to this happening ? With the damage to the triple gears, it appears it could have been caused by improper timing of the triple gears or too tight a bushing to pin clearance or ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

@Norman: The missing part does not look particular damaged. I only have this blurry picture:

I will carefully check the pan to see if there are any marks, but I do not thing that is the problem. It looks as the oil guide is made of two parts and have just been assembled wrong.
Regarding the transmission, if you have followed some of my previous threads I have been preparing a completely new gearbox and flywheel to replace this one. I have not pulled the engine until now as it would then have been taking up space in my workshop.
@Steve: Yes, and I did not use oversize :-) which I later realized probably was an error. I have been driving around 2-3000 miles since I overhauled the gearbox (prior to my trip to the UK in april 2009). The timing of the triple gears was correct (I have the Ford Service book and the MTFCA booklet about the gearbox). The drums could rotate freely back then and also now.
But timing was kind of incorrect AFTER the two outer axles got stuck (no movement possible) so the reverse and low drum rotated with same speed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 03:08 pm:

More horror pictures:
Here is the old flywheel:

Clear marks where the triplegears have grinded the flywheel.
Note by the way that this is also a machined flywheel! These where discussed lately in another thread. The engine is a post-production end engine, so this is obviously something they did in the last years/months.
A closeup of one of the holes shows how oval it have become :-(


This flywheel will be used for my HCCT :-) where I do not need those pins anyway.

Lets look forward! This is just assembled almost ready to be mounted to the crankshaft:


The drum surfaces needs to be polished a little so the do not grind those new wood band down in a few hours of operation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

I'll give him this: He sure don't waste any time! probably could have worked for HF back in the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthony Bennett on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:36 am:

Commiserations Michael,

It's always a bit disturbing when you pull something like that apart isn't it. At least there isn't any real damage outside of the trans.

Has the flywheel been dimpled with a center punch around the triple gear pin? Perhaps the old pins were loose and have been "tightened" buy punching the flywheel... if the pins were replaced and came loose in operation, the rest of the damage ensued? Everything does look like it's been a bit hot like there was a lack of clearance between drums?

Keep up the good work in any case;)

cheers

Anthony


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Daily report May 4th 2012 8 PM (CEST): The new gearbox now mounted on crankshaft, wide band refitted with the wood band - new set of holes made, all 3 band now soaking in oil (old).
Have picked up clevis and lock washers to be ready for the mounting of the pan tomorrow. Will drive it to a friend nearby who have a large plane table to check the pan. Borrow 4 rebuild coils of him (rebuild by me) as I do not have time to make 4 before sunday. Sunday afternoon is the Spring Roll Call at the Citadel in Copenhagen and guess who wants to be there :-)

Stay tuned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 04:01 pm:

bushing finish

You would think a lathe bore would make a nice smooth finish. This is a triple gear bushing cut in half with no run in or time saver to knock down the mountains. A reamer is a better finish.bushing finish

Bottom picture is the other half of that bushing run in with 320 grit yellow time saver and run in for half an hour in a drill press.

I could show you more on the pin finish but my PC skills wont let me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 12:38 pm:

@Paul: I am perfectly aware of that a reamer will give the better finish than in a lathe - I have neither, but have access to a lathe. You may obtain a fair result on the lathe if you play a little with the geometry of the cutter.

Intermediate report May 5th 2012 3:30 PM (CEST):Anyway - I'm looking forward now getting the car out on the streets again using the spare gearbox I had. It was lifted on to the crank and just attached with loose bolts yesterday evening. This morning I started out tightening the four bolts and securing them:


Now it was time to prepare the pan with the new gaskets and sealer:


Remember to (at least) apply the sealer on the inside of the boltholes:


Te wooden band have soaked in (old) oil overnight and are mounted and tied together at the gearbox:


So now the assembled engine exclusive hogshead are ready to be put back in the car:


That may happen later 29te ;-)or tomorrow morning.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 05:10 pm:

You are correct Michael!

The point I was trying to make is just because it looks good and feels good it might not be good.

On a scale of 1 to 1000 a lathe can get about 32
A reamer in a press or boring mill about 8

With my vintage lathe and my skills I am probably around 40

I would like to get peak to valley 1.6 metric or 0.00020"

Just don't know a simple way with my tools and skills to do that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

Paul, sand the ID with crocus cloth. There is no need to go to extraordinary measures.....a little slop in that area is a good thing. Too close fits will lead to nothing but disaster.
As mentioned above you can regrind the cutting tool, oil the surface and bore again several times without resetting the cross slide at the slowest feed rate you have. You'll be surprised HOW smooth a finish you can get....... :-)
I said it before and I'll say it again. Centrifugal force moves things outward.....not inward.
The only time I see those bushings getting oil is when the flywheel stops turning and the oil runs back to the oil pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Allen Vitko on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 08:21 pm:

Herm's vintage reamer's bore an exact 3 1/2 thou clearance on triple gear pins with the original pin diameter. I think its the finish on the pin and bushing that allows that clearance.

Think I will use your method Craig on a used triple gear push it out cut it in half and see what it looks like with a microscope.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

Daily report May 6th 2012 8:30 PM (CEST): Read the club booklet about the engine and realized I may have an issue with centering the 4th - not up down as it is done by the hogshead, but left-right! I did use 4 bolts to steer the block towards the pan when I lowered the crane and all bolts went right in, but theoretically it could twist a small fraction of an inch being maybe too much at the forth!

Fortunately the two bolts could be screwed in by the fingers!!! Pfouuueee!


Into the car with the engine:


After the traditional mingling left and right and a little magic at the end with the 4th main and it finally came in place:


The steering column remounted and the hogshead cleaned and ready to be mounted:


That need to happen when I'm not tired ;-)

It's been a good T-day today. ;-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

You made quick progress! I think you will really like the wood transmission bands.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:11 am:

Stephen - that depends ;-) I started out in September preparing the new gearbox and flywheel, so the engine is only out of the car to swap the gear. If I had taken it out in September I would have had an engine somewhere in the workshop to go and stumble upon. It was much better in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

I'm done!! Drivetrain assembled and engine fired up. My rearwheel miss the rim as the tire are punctured, so rearaxle is on a stand. This allowed me to test the transmission: Smooth operation in low and high as well as reverse.
Tomorrow I will put a new tube in that tire and get it inflated to proper 60 psi and then we are back on the road!!!




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