FINALLY drug it home. I'm getting excited!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: FINALLY drug it home. I'm getting excited!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:10 pm:

I doubt many of you will remember, but back in late 2010 I posted a few photos of this 1913 Touring along with some questions about it's originality. I ended up buying the car but due to some unexpected situations in my life, I opted to continue paying the storage bill and leaving the car where it was. I've been working on several T's lately in the shop, so I guess I have T fever or something, but when I woke up yesterday I just decided that it was time to drag it home.

I took a few photos and would like to ask if some of you guys would be kind enough to have a look at them and give me your feedback (both good and bad). I'm particularly interested to see what other folks spot as incorrect and not original about the car. So far I know that the front wheels are later models while the rears appear to be correct. The left axle housing is incorrect as well as the driveshaft, but the right housing looks right. Coil box and engine block are later model but I'm pretty sure the hogs head and oil pan are both correct.

What else do you guys spot?

Here's a link to the entire album online:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108215942718164731359/1913T?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1s RgCPWFl57W9I6zPw&feat=directlink

And here are some of the individual photos (that I hope will embed into this post...???)

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Thanks,
Deron in Huntsville


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Wont let me see without signing in.you may want to see how to post a photo here.It aint to hard but it is a procedure that takes time to fiqure out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:21 pm:

Mack - try it again - I just looked at the entire album with no issues.

Nice find Deron!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:22 pm:

I guess its safe to assume that basic html tags such as img src="xxx" aren't supported allowed in this software...???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

I use the cheaters method for pics here... got a pacman championship tonight and I have the high score!!! ws

[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/21eqec.jpg[/IMG]


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:26 pm:

Deron,
You are correct the HTML tags will not work. Just have to use the "Upload Attachment" at the bottom. As long a the photos are less then 200kb each you can upload as many as you like.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

Nor editing a previous post...

I can upload them off of my computer but they're 4mb each and I don't feel like resizing all of them. If anybody can tell me how to embed images directly from my Picasa album I'll be glad to repost them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:31 pm:

Hi, Deron -- It looks like a pretty nice original car to me. Congratulations on getting it. The coil box is 15-16, and the tail lamp is from some other car. The tail lamp/license plate bracket is an aftermarket "Neverout" brand. The front spring and the shackles are later. That's about all I noticed at first glance. You're fortunate to have found a brass T that's that original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

Deron, from the looks of that floor, it's a good thing you didn't wait any longer. Looks like a nice car. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

Bill's got the ticket. Thanks! I was trying to use the html variation with the "<" symbols rather than the "[". Here it goes again...

[IMG]https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tAGS67rOZDk/T53aB5e_YbI/AAAAAAAAB_g/Mn6a_3Xng uQ/s640/DSC03117.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Vfn_-s7be3k/T53aIj5nBTI/AAAAAAAACBg/VFqFfYSDl sc/s400/DSC03140.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LqBYmuvr-bo/T53aMdSHDRI/AAAAAAAACCo/izlGlwJ0s HE/s640/DSC03149.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-bg4FIeH2iMc/T53aMhYtAnI/AAAAAAAACCw/LvM-nSFVu ts/s640/DSC03150.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t65Y_FJvnoY/T53aOyt66oI/AAAAAAAACDM/crp8huNLS -g/s640/DSC03154.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-K7Ow7CDs6fs/T53aR4iUuNI/AAAAAAAACEI/koj2TDqg8 WQ/s640/DSC03161.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-M8zg2okp0Zk/T53aShACS_I/AAAAAAAACEU/VutaYhh4o p4/s640/DSC03163.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C3iyHBAcqwY/T53aTV0S60I/AAAAAAAACEo/yudxLMxSd ok/s640/DSC03165.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Cr2TCNur_Z8/T53aT7EtpYI/AAAAAAAACEw/gQ9k9OqQr AQ/s640/DSC03166.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fr6eTVP2Jx0/T53aVbQSUCI/AAAAAAAACFY/1c72zHcME Yk/s640/DSC03176.JPG[/IMG]

[IMG]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cGHwq-Q5gFQ/T53aWNrM4zI/AAAAAAAACFo/X_R8c1kGl mw/s640/DSC03178.JPG[/IMG]


One thing that I'm curious about is the marking on the bottom of the original front floorboards. The body is a Wilson body, but the "F.B.Co." on the floorboards doesn't ring a bell. Was Fisher Body doing work for Ford back then?


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

Yes,Fisher did bodys for Ford during that time.I have the remnants of a wood pickup body that had Fisher on it.Due to the last posting,I am able to see pics.Nice ride!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Wow,a DB axle! Dodge Brothers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:05 pm:

You have a fairly early car. Congratulations!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:24 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:28 pm:

You 'da man Steve!

So does anybody recognize the markings on the floorboards? Fisher Body? Sheesh, no wonder it won't crank, Dodge parts, GM parts and Ford parts..... ;-)



Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:53 pm:

I guess you know the engine color isn't exactly kosher.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:55 pm:

Yeah, I kinda noticed that too. I was hoping nobody else would catch it.....


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

GM did not own Fisher back then. They, along with Dodge Bros, were major suppliers to Ford.
Note, the body number is a W, another supplier.

Really nice car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

It was a joke...

What I was curious about is why the floorboards would have been made by a different supplier when it's a Wilson body. I would have thought that the floorboards would have been considered part of the body assy.

Thanks for the compliments too, and I'm really looking forward to getting it running. The guy I got it from said that it was running when parked in the 1960's so I hope that it'll need nothing more than a good fuel system cleaning and an oil change. The coils are brand new looking KW units, all dated 1962, which supports the sellers story.

Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 06:35 am:

Did you get a speedometer head with it? Looks like an aux drive on the hogs head by Steves ball cap. ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 07:54 am:

WHY CAN'T I FIND STUFF LIKE THIS??!?!?!?!??!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 11:14 am:

Very exciting, WOW. I am a bit unsure about the routing of the fuel line over that exhaust tube. Would under be better?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 11:21 am:

PLEASE turn your windshield around! It is upside down!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 12:38 pm:

The data plate is missing. There is a blank spot right of the coil box and that spot is lighter in color. Do you have that plate? The 1913 plate was larger than the 1914-15 plate. An original 1913 plate is hard to find. It is reproduced. The number on that plate is about 10,000 numbers higher than the original engine number. The number on the data plate was the same as the engine number into mid 1912. The "B" series engines were installed in Fords and had their own engine numbers separate from other Model Ts, but the data plates continued with the numbers and those plates were shared with the regular series.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 01:22 pm:

Deron,

Even with a later engine, it may have the correct number stamped on it. I have a friend that has a late '13 Touring with what appears to be a seemingly correct number. It is a Wilson like yours and each of the doors and seat are stamped also.

What is your data plate number?
The one on the driver side. It covers up the hole above the steering shaft. The dash boards could be flipped over for RHD.

If you tear it down you should check the transmission stub shaft. It may be original and if so it will have the date on it. About six days before the car assembly.

A really neat looking car!

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Monday, April 30, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

I turned the windshield over Saturday night before I left the shop but it was too dark to get any decent pictures, so that's one thing checked off the list.

I'm not sure what data plate would be missing on the passenger side of the firewall because all the restored cars I've seen have the speedometer there. I'm not sure what this car had mounted there, but it certainly wasn't a speedometer. The number on the driver side data plate is 259782 (which is also the number that this car was registered with in ledger containing the original 1966 Alabama antique vehicle registrations) but I have no idea if this is an original or reproduction plate. If it's a reproduction then it has to be a really old one being that the car has been in storage (and untouched) since the late 1960's.

The engine is certainly a later engine because of the removable side cover over the timing gear. Unless I'm mistaken those weren't added until Model T's were electrified in the late teens. The number pad is also way too long to be a 1913 block, but it's unstamped so it might have been a service replacement block, or ???

I cleaned it up a little today and was surprised to see that it actually cleaned up nicer than I was expecting. The degreaser that I used on the engine and transmission did wonders to bring out that beautiful mint green paint too! Boy, I wish I knew what the previous owners were thinking when they selected that color...










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 12:43 pm:

That is interesting. That is an original plate and the style that was used into 1915. The engine number would have been about 15,000 or more higher (I thought lower) than the plate number For example, the 1913 T with plate number280254 has motor number 299995 as listed in 1960.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 01:18 pm:

Probably April or May 1913 car by the tag. Front seat where driver sits should have body date. Hap is after those numbers when they can be found.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 01:40 pm:

The missing plate to the right of the coil box may have been a Dealer plate. Some of those have been shown here in the past.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 04:02 pm:

Ken,

I posted a picture of the Wilson body number on the seat riser, but I don't recall seeing any other numbers there. Is that the number you're talking about?


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 06:53 pm:

Deron, what is the thickness of the cocoa mat on the rear floor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

I'll have to check that tomorrow and let you know. I was wondering if it might possibly be original, but I'm not holding my breath. I'll measure it and get a few better photos of it and post them tomorrow evening.


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

Deron,

Neat car – lots of interesting items for you to sort through and discover what was done when.

Reference the photo you posted with the body number W 174761.



I would assume that is stamped into the front seat wooden seat on the wooden frame in front of the gas tank. I.e. lift up the front seat cushion and look down and you see it. But rather than me “assuming” that is the location would you please confirm if it is the front seat or the back seat. And if it is visible when the lower cushion is lifted up and you look down at the front of the seat frame.


Also the next time you are looking at the front seat would you please check to see if there are any additional numbers on the wooden frame? Below is a photo of a 1914 Wilson bodied touring car that shows the body number but also what I believe to be a date number of 14 1 for 1914 Jan.


(1914 at SC state museum)

This 1914 did NOT have a “W” stamped on the front seat frame in front of the body number but instead had a “W” stamped into the metal heel panel as shown below. In the photos you posted I did not see a “W” stamped into the heel panel – but when you have a chance would you please confirm if there is or is not one on both the front and back seat heel panels?


(1914 at SC state museum)

Also would you please confirm which floorboard the F.B.Co. is stamped on?



Reference you comment about what was the strange “green” the previous owner painted the engine. From memory back in the 1960s the local Auto Parts stores carried that color and it was labeled “Ford Green Engine Paint.” It was probably for a much later Ford – but I remember seeing a couple of Model A Ford engines painted that color before I saw one that was painted the dark Model A Ford engine paint

Again – great looking car – I’m sure you will have a lot of fun with it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 10:23 pm:

Hap,

Thank you for the reply. In regards to your questions, the body number is indeed on the front seat riser just in front of the fuel tank. Below is a photo of the only other marking on the riser, but I certainly can't decide what it means. In a sense it looks like an overlapping "KA", but perhaps it was where someone goofed when stamping the body number. You can see the fuel tank strap visible in the top of the photo. The second photo shows the locations of the two stampings.





I checked both front and rear sheetmetal seat riser pieces and there is no "W" on either one.

In regards to the floorboards, all three pieces have the "F.B.Co." stamping. Below is a photo of the two toeboard pieces with the stamping circled, and I will get a photo of the bottom piece tomorrow. Am I correct in assuming that stands for the Fisher Body Co.?



Thanks once again for the information,
Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Tuesday, May 01, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

Hap,

Thank you for the reply. In regards to your questions, the body number is indeed on the front seat riser just in front of the fuel tank. Below is a photo of the only other marking on the riser, but I certainly can't decide what it means. In a sense it looks like an overlapping "KA", but perhaps it was where someone goofed when stamping the body number. You can see the fuel tank strap visible in the top of the photo. The second photo shows the locations of the two stampings.





I checked both front and rear sheetmetal seat riser pieces and there is no "W" on either one.

In regards to the floorboards, all three pieces have the "F.B.Co." stamping. Below is a photo of the two toeboard pieces with the stamping circled, and I will get a photo of the bottom piece tomorrow. Am I correct in assuming that stands for the Fisher Body Co.?



Thanks once again for the information,
Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 03:14 am:

I remember reading the postings a couple months ago. Congratulations on getting that car! It is a treasure.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 08:04 am:

Deron,

Thank you for the clarification and for checking and confirming the front and rear seat heel panels do not have a body letter on them.

My current theory based on only a few samples and inputs is that the F.B.Co. on the underside of the floorboards stands for Fisher Body Company. The reason I say “current thinking” is additional information discovered or shared in the future may correct or confirm that theory. Also I have less than 10 samples – hardly something statistically sound to base a finding on when applying it to 126,000 plus touring cars produced in 1913 (ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1913.htm ) A few other folks have also posted they believe F.B.Co. stands for Fisher Body Company.

At Ford Motor Company USA, I believe it was common for the floorboards from any body company to be installed in their own company's body as well as bodies produced by other body companies. I will try to post some photos and words on why I believe that later today. We will probably start another posting for that topic as it goes well beyond the 1913 cars and we will want to ask for additional samples etc. when we start that topic. I’ll also post a link to that thread on this thread so folks can easily find the other thread after we post it.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 11:15 am:

Looking at those photos, I would say that someone has been messing with that firewall. Why would they have tried to put the carburetor adjusting plate on the wrong side? Also, the serial number tag was always located over the rhd carburetor adjusting hole to cover it up. Back in the '60s, Greenland made Ford ownership plates that you could install on your firewall, and on it you could put the year of the car. I think that is probably what was on the rh side. Another interesting thing is it has the '13 side body support brackets just in back of the rear door sill plates. You can see the nuts for these brackets in another photo, and the bracket itself in another photo above. Note too, the lower body to firewall bracket is the later style. The serial number plate number will always be at least 10,000 lower than the engine number, but since the engine is not original, perhaps the original number was transferred to the new block? Enough for now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

Ever wonder why an original car might have a body produced by one company but original floorboards produced by another company?

Bottom line up front (BLUF): Ford apparently took the removable front floorboards out of the open bodies during part and probably all of 1909-1925 production. And apparently wasn’t too concerned about making sure the floorboard delivered with the body was put back in the same body.

For a discussion of that "theory" please see the posting at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/286255.html?1336008530

Also please add additional leads etc. about the floorboards being installed in different body maker's bodies to that posting to try and keep things together.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 10:01 pm:

Hap,

I completely understand your statement regarding "current thinking". I have spent many years studying the earliest Model A's (specifically the 1927 built cars) and it's amazing just how many things we used to accept for fact that have now been debunked! I made my earlier assumption about the "F.B.Co." stamping on my floorboards simply because I knew it was most likely a supplier's mark, and Fisher was the only one I could think of. Below are a couple more photos of all three pieces, just for the record.





In regards to the rear floormat, I completely forgot to measure it but the thickness is roughly 1". Below are three photos, front, back and side profile. I seriously doubt it's an original, but I guess it's possible. Anyone know for sure?







Larry,

I agree that the firewall isn't right. In fact, I'm fairly sure that it's been remade because I don't see any evidence of screw or nail holes on the inside where the shield (behind the cylinder head) might have been. I wish it were original, but I don't really think it is. As for your comment regarding the carb adjusting plate, I assume that you're seeing the discoloration to the left of the coil box. If so, that's the hole for the RHD carb adjusting rod, and someone had mounted a little round electrical switch over it for the headlights. There's also no evidence of ever having had a speedometer mounted, but I'm under the impression that those were optional equipment.

Last thing I had on my mind tonight is the carburetor. I pulled it off this afternoon so that I can go ahead and get the car running. I'm not sure what carb this car should have on it, but I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was brass (after much soaking in lacquer thinner)! Below are a few photos of what I have, and if any of you would be kind enough to let me know if it's correct I'd sure appreciate it.








Thanks,
Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

The carb is a 1915-1917 L2.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Wednesday, May 02, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

Thanks Steve! It'll have to do for now, but eventually I'll hunt down the correct carb. Once I learn what it should be, that is......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 12:02 am:

For 1913 that would be Holley S or Kingston Y. For determining which parts are "correct" you'll want Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia on disk, which has a lot more information than the online version. There are also a couple of books by Gail Rodda showing various parts by year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 06:31 am:

A speedometer was standard equipment in 1913. Most likely your very late 1913 model year car had a Stewart Model C speedometer like this one:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

Deron, I have an exceptionally original 13 Touring. It has the original upholstery, top, side curtains, top boot, floor mat and rear rug. The following pictures are of the rug. I'm comparing it to the reproduction rug from the 80's, that is in my 14 Touring. In the pictures the original is on the left. Bruce McCalley published an article on my car, volume 45 #3 May/June 2010. This article has a lot of in depth information that may be of use to you. If you need any other information feel free to contact me.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 06:34 pm:

Deron, forgot to mention the rug size, it is 28 1/2 x 29 1/2, the thickness is about 1 1/2 inches


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

Dan,

Thanks for the photos! I wonder what Ford's logic was for using the rug instead of a conventional rubber mat.


Deron


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