I see in the vendor catalogs someone is making new rods for T's that use an insert bearing. Has anyone used these rods in an engine yet. What if any machining is required. I don't think this is a route I want to go, but when you look at having to go 400-500 mile to get babbitt poured it is a thought. For the engine I'm putting together there is nothing wrong with using standard rods and babbitt, but I would like to know if anyone is using the new rods and there thoughts.
Copied From Lang"s catalog but I think most of the vendors have them.
" New Forged rods with superior strength and durability. Made to be used only with the insert style bearings which are included. No shims required. Forged from high strength steel alloy 4140.
NO CORE REQUIRED.
Includes 4 rods, insert bearings and connecting rod bolts. (Uses standard wrist pin bolts, part# 3049 which are not included.)
NOTE: These rods should only be used in cars with an oil pump for full oil pressure and a filter to remove impurities in the oil. The insert style bearing surface is very thin and without a filter the babbitt will fill with dirt causing it to wear faster and damage the crank shaft."
I saw these in another vendor's catalog but don't recall them saying you have to have an oil pump and filter. From what I understand these are still babbitt. The other vendor's catalog indicated the bolts can only be torqued once, and they take a special rod.
I guess I'm not real clear on what the advantage is here.
Hi Steve,
I'm not sure there is any advantage other than I don't have to drive 400 miles, leave a block for a month or two to get babbitt poured, have it line bored and then go back and get it.
John,
You can order replacement rods without driving anywhere if you are capable of measuring the crankshaft diameter accurately. No one needs your block to pour rods and machine them.
See:
http://www.modeltford.com/item/3024RX.020.aspx
Royce you are so correct, but some where I got it in my head (at the Barnyard Cruiser event in Eureka, MT last Saturday) you could get these for the mains also and I should have thought a little more about the post before posting it. Now I have to check and see if the the mains are listed. I saw the rods and just grabbed that info. What I was told was that you did not need a pressurized system and I now get to spend the rest of the day trying to remember who I was talking with there. As a side note the Cruiser thing was a fun day and they were going to try and post a video of it on you tube. A few local guys got together and built the track. Group of guys from Calgary/Red Deer area came down, a group from Spokane plus Montana guys.
Any chance of getting pictures posted on the forum?
While I don't see "drop-in" mains an time soon it sure would be nice. It's the one thing that really bothered me about the T engine. Not being able to re-build it myself if I lost a main. I can imagine, if it exists, that the block would require machining to make inserts work so the first time would be a send away any how but still the option is appealing. As far as insert bearing rods go it's OK but it's half the job really with new babbitted rods available. It would be great to be able to do a T engine myself if a main or crank went south.
I think so far only for the rods, and still of babbitt. So even if you don't need a pressurized system what is the advantage? The babbitt will wear as before and you will have to drop to inspection cover, replace the inserts, replace the bolts (if I read right they can only be used once). How is that any better than taking up the rods in the original configuration?
John, you were probably talking to Robb Wolff about the rods as he was over at my house just before I left. I had a set and showed him.
I am building a new engine with a Scat crank and decided to use these new rods well because they are brand new and haven't been stressed for 80+ years.
Also right out of the box they are within a few grams of each other so makes balancing easier.
My crank has stock throws so if I do happen to need another rod a stock one will work.
Chris
Make sure you read the NOTE at the bottom of the first post in this thread! You CANNOT run insert bearings without pressure oiling.
I understand SCAT is working on a babbitable rod for Model T's and is what I plan to use to get rid of the original Model T rods for the reason you stated.
Ron the Coilman
Chris that could very well be right, but I thought he was talking about mains also. New balanced rods are very appealing, but it was the mains I was exited about. This must be how rumors start. Some days are better than others.
Ron that is good to know.
Pressure oil system and insert rods allow more rpm. Of course you need to do extensive mods to get there like a real crank and a pressure oil system. By the time you are done, there is not much T left.
Chris
I really don't see a huge problem running these shells in a splash oiled engines. Making sure the engine is really clean inside is important in any T engine build. So you would want be careful about keeping the oil clean (which is important any engine operation).
Obviously others disagree with me but I am used to that now.
The rod insert idea was tried about 20 years ago and failed. The insert bearing material was too thin and failed with the splash system. The only way it would work was with a pressurised oiling system and a filter. Snyder's new insert bearings are supposidely thicker than modern inserts and should not have problems. I have not seen them yet so time will tell. I have seen Scat's new rods and they are beautiful, but they are presently designed for babbitt. I think i will stick with babbitt.
I asked this question once before but nobody answered.
Do the upper halves of the mains wear out? Obviously at some point I know they will but.......
I never worked on an engine that was marginally worn out......everything I got at the shop was complete junk, or worse, when it arrived.
Seems to me you should be able to fit bottom halves about three times before the top half would be shot....... ?
Has anyone come across a T rod that would be good enough to fit a slipper shell into? I don't think so!
Remember that the very first Model T Fords only had babbitt in the bottom half. That is to say the main caps were babbitted but the block was not.
Because the engines were so much quieter Ford decided to babbitt the blocks too.
I have seen engines with the top main shell as good as new while the bottom showed quite a bit of wear.
My neighbor gave me a Mazda a few years ago that had not had the oil changed in so many years that the oil screen on the oil pump plugged up.
The bottom shells showed wear but I reused the top ones and saved the new half set for.....in case I got another car like that, or had to replace mine again some day, or.. I don't know why.
Thanks Aaron........that was my thought since the forces are always in a downward plane.
I have been installing inserts in Model A engines for several years with great success. The rods are pricey but very well balanced with ARP bolts that don't need cotters. All were done as dipper type and have never had a failure. I don't see the T needing any better since it peaks at a lower RPM and only would need dippers added to work correctly which, Snyder's rods have made on. I don't know how inserts for the mains would work but it would be possible to run them successfully, just have to machine the block. Someone will make some that work.
man...another improvement for something that doesn't need improving.
It's a good thing Model T people don't run art museums, or the Mona Lisa would have a smile attached to it by now.
Let the flames begin...
Unless you're serious racing, how many times are you going to wear out the bearings?
rdr
A guy in IL was doing inserted Model T and Model A blocks. He no longer works on Ts. I never saw any of the completed engines in a car so I don't know how they performed.
Before I would try it in any of my cars, I would like to see the new system in use for about 50,000 miles on others' cars. If they are successful, maybe I would try it on mine. With the mains, however, I'm now quite sure I would be comfortable with not line boring the block. How would one be sure the timing gears lined up, or the rear main thrust surface is adequate? It is more work to pour the bearings, true, but it has been proven by the test of time.
Norm
Let's face it. There's no call for inserted mains.(or rods for that matter). The original system works and inserts would need testing for years. The machineing might cost more than re-babiting/line boring anyway. If no body was pouring metal out there I'd say maybe it's worth a shot but that isn't the case.
We are getting away from the original intent of this post which was about drop in inserts that had a thin layer of babbitt. I know what's involved in putting in traditional insert bearings, the machining and putting in a pressurized oil system, which I can get done here.
Charlie we have to go 400-500 miles one way to get T babbitt poured, Spokane, Calgary? or Rapid City. There aren't any shop's here that will line bore a T either that I'm aware of. So if you have to get it line bored when the babbitt's poured you might as well get the rest of the machine work done while your there. At that point all your left with is putting in the crank, cam and rods and pistons, so you might just as well have them put the block together. Tom and Rick are smiling in Spokane. I'm sure they would do a better job than me, but then what do I learn from it, nothing! Having a drop in main similar to the rods would be a big deal here.
John said "So if you have to get it line bored when the babbitt is poured you might as well get the rest of the machine work done while your there. At that point all your left with is putting in the crank, cam and rods and pistons, so you might just as well have them put the block together."
"I'm sure they would do a better job than me, but then what do I learn from it, nothing!"
You get a warranty when you take it to a single shop!
That is something to be learned.
Hi Mike,
Heard you had to work again last weekend. They need to let you out once in a while. Your mother said the guy you work for is a mean boss. He was standing right there.
If you DO have the equipment to do your own engine work, there is something to be said for knowing exactly who did what and what was done. Not everyone is good at this kind of thing and has the shop space to do it, my personal deal is I would rather do my own and live with what I do than to pay somebody else to do it.
I would not be comfortable with insert mains because of the fit of the caps unless it had been line bored. I would want the block and cap line bored to a specific size and then using insert bearings might be OK. I really don't see the reason to do it, babbitt isn't that big a deal and line boring is pretty straightforward.
I looked at Snyder's site and I don't find the same comment about having to have pressure oiling. Perhaps I missed it?
Their press release is here:
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/uploads/CONNECTINGRODSANDBEARINGSpressrelease- 10242.pdf
Their comparison between OEM and new product is here:
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/uploads/modeltconnectingrodsbearings1912-10244 .pdf
Their instructions for installation are here:
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/uploads/T3024stdinstructions-10243.pdf
I don't see T inserted rods in their on-line catalog but the A rods are $570 a set.
At that price I would rather just send four rods to Ron Miller for an exchange.
I would rather have an inserted block.
To me getting it poured & bored is a big deal.
It's 8 hours for the two round trips to the babbitt shop and $650 or so to the guy that does the work.
Once a block is line bored & otherwise set up for inserts a rebuild would be so much cheaper and a lot less time involved.
I find it interesting that after having been told for years that the oil hole at the top of the rod was wrong and I was weakening the rod and that the oil would be forced back out the hole, etc, etc, etc; the new rods have a hole at the top as well as a dipper.
Interesting. How many bucks??
Stan, I have built many Model A's with inserts and no pressure, no failures of the bearings, just operator ignorance that would have destroyed original style babbitt bearings. The inserts still were in usable condition and were only replaced because the owner wanted it done at cost. The original splash system works fine in A's so I believe it would work in a T.
Do you use Farmall Cub bearings for the mains? A friend who used to own a machine/engine rebuilding shop did a bunch of A's with Cub mains and they worked fine and ran for a lot of years trouble free.
There are many bearings that fit an A.
One guy I know of that does that modification uses MG Midget bearings. I think they are the Morris Minor/Sprite/ Midget 948 bearings, same as some guys in Australia use.
My machinest claims he has shipped those bearings to builders in Australia because they couldn't get them there. They were made in Australia!
There is also a Fiat bearing that works, so I heave read.
I started using MG midget bearings even though there are several others that could be used. The biggest problem with these is you have to stack 2 sets in the front and middle bearing and 3 sets in the rear for proper coverage. I also had to groove the block to get proper oil distribution to all the bearings since the oil holes were in the center of the bearing and the oil hole in a Model A is off center. I now use bearings that are made specifically for Model A's. The block still needs to be line bored to 1.770/1.771 but the bearings are a snap in fit after tabs are cut into the block and cap. The bearings are supplied by Antique Engine Rebuilding (AER) in Skokie, Ill. He also supplies rods made specifically made to use inserts and the insert with them. The main shells are 95$ per set and the rods are 600$ per set. The rods are nice and balanced to within1 gram +/- with ARP bolts, not studs and nuts with cotters.
Here is a list of bearings used for A and B insert conversions.
bearing.pdf (20.6 k) |
Well, I don't know what happened there but this is the first time I ever tried an attachment so,it is probably something I did.
One more time. Crossed fingers.
bearing.pdf (20.6 k) |
Why not ,can we use the original connection rods, machine them so they can accept the insert bearings.
Toon